geometry...my favorite
 

Firstly, I look at everything from a geometric basis. Both, Arching and Bending, shorten the radius (shoulder to sweetspot). Secondly, the act of moving to the toes can move the fulcrum (the Left Shoulder) closer to the ball. Therefore, a shorter radius and a fulcrum that moves closer to the ball can work together, in compensation, to strike the ball. Kudos go to Mr. Hogan for seeing the relationships.

The only reason that I said that it "can" is that sometimes the head will Bob up and back to serve as a counter-balance for the forward change in CG. In this case, the fulcrum is getting closer on one axis and getting further away on another axis causing a multi-compensated stroke. Otherwise, moving to the toes can cause a change in CG and a step towards the ball.

Extensor Action helps us to keep the FLW. Maintaining width in the stroke requires us to maintain our distance from the ball. Shortening the radius requires us to get closer to the ball.

'Well Compensated"
 

Nice post Ted, even for a Hitter. Lots to Incubate here, not only for OB, but for many of us.

BTW, special thanks to Ted for his presentation at Cuscowilla, both in class and especially on the practice tee. This forum is very fortunate to have him here :salut: .

the redneck
 

Awwww shucks...

I didn't know all y'all from Massachusetts understood anything I said.

DKerby and Luke

I checked out some down the line video of my swing during a bad golf trough.

Things I noticed:
-Despite my best efforts, I am not yet anything like Hogan. Crap.
-weight a little towards the toes at address. Knees a little too bent.
-my right leg does straighten but gets nowhere near totally straight.
-my right leg is still, motionless between top and end (Im a swinger, I think,
Dont hate me Luke, I do practice hitting chips and pitches and love it)
-my left wrist bows a little between top and end. A little. And my pants seat area moves very slightly forward, towards the ball, with the head bobbing up and back slightly. A slight straightening up of the spine angle between top and end. I have never ever noticed this before. I am in transition here.
-in start down my butt moves forward in a more noticeable manner.
-nearing release my head bobs up and back. This is amazing. Once again I have never noticed this before.

Luke, this fits your multiple axis compensation phenomena (MACP) theory! I am one of the sufferers, I never knew! Is there a cure? Give it to me straight Doc, I can take it. How long have I got? Im not a statistic, damn it, I have a right to know the cure for this, horrible phenomena.

I have wrestled with the darned bowed left wrist thing for years. Luke, Is it cause and effect? Does the weight on the toes at address encourage a bowing of the left wrist? A shortening of the radius in anticipation and in compensation for a moving fulcrum? Did you have to work on Mr. Long Time's left wrist or did it fix itself when his COG moved back at address?

On behalf of all of the afflicted, I salute you.
O.B.

Impact Fix
 

I love Homer's recommendation in 12-3-0, Section 2 - Impact Fix. When you prepare #3. Grip-Flying Wedges, #6. Right Forearm Position, #7. Clubshaft Alignments, and #8. Extensor Action, you're establishing the radius and verifying your distance from the ball.

Study 7-17, and understand that "conventional teaching" says to keep the weight on the balls of your feet. I think teachers take this great advice from other sports (where the ball is moving) and apply it to golf (where the ball is not moving). Weight on the balls of the feet or on the toes places the body in a position of imbalance in preparation for walking or running. I believe that the sport with a moving ball needs a machine that's able to move and the sport with a stationary ball needs a stationary and balanced machine.

Because they compensate for each other, you must fix both. Wiggle your toes at Address, and then work on Extensor Action. See how far you can get away from the ball at Impact Fix, not at Adjusted Address.

Thanks Luke, will do.

Ill balance the machine and space it properly from fulcrum to ball when at fix, not adjusted. Sounds so logical and yet you'd never get this level of insight anywhere else.

Never thought about compensations and cause and effect relationships from a down the line, radius/fulcrum point of view. Very interesting.

One more question if I may. Given that the mass of the arms/club moves from in front of us to behind us and then in front of us again etc. In the ideal does the center of balance move around or stay put? If it doesnt move is there a compensating counter balancing of some sort?

O.B.

gravity golf
 

David Lee's primary thesis in Gravity Golf involved the "counter fall" or counter balancing of the arms and club. David's an extremely intelligent man. The theory has some good science, but there are some things that take big leaps of faith, in my opinion.

I've seen many representations of CG in great players including force plates, 3-D models, etc. I remember a Spanish company that had one of the first 3-D models. This may have been more than ten years ago. They had Jose Maria in their data and showed a ground-up view from the feet with a marker that showed his CG. It never got closer to the ball, so one would have to assume there was some form of a counter balance.

I've got my own theory about force plates. I think some of the data is misinterpreted. They suggest it's favorable to have a hook (a CG that gets closer to the ball in the downstroke). I'm not sold on that theory. I think they're reading the weight move from the right heel to the left ball, when the hips are still closed.

Thanks Luke

Lots to incubate here. Im going to work on all of this. Ill start by losing 10 pounds of what I now call counter balancing. Only Mexican for a month should do it.

O.B.

Seem like Gravity Golf is good for swingers, because there is an initial thrust of the arms on the backswing to get the club to the end position which allows the counter balance to take place.

Ted,

What adjustments during his motion would you suggest to overcome this? I see this all too often on the lesson tee.

Heel me!
 

Should the weight move from the heels towards the balls of the feet, or should the weight stay on the heels throughout? I seem to recall Chuck Evans suggesting the 1st option, but a casual perusal of this thread does not validate that belief, unless of course I missed something. I have noticed that baseball players tend to twist/spin on their heels...correlation? I guess that is another seems as if I heard just this weekend from a teaching pro at the range "Picture yourself getting ready to dive into a pool."

Rambling Incubator
 

Too much Pivot Effort will...
OverLoad your Radius Power (#4 Power Accumulator) with a vicious, malicious turn rather than a gentle turn of the Pivot.
pull you out of your Pivot alignments.
force the Hips to move crossline rather than parallel to your Deliverly Line.
create a Sweep Release, requiring a higher Hand Speed to produce a given clubhead speed.

The motion of the Hips toward the ball, feels like power, but actually does nothing to add power...False feel effort. Also, the Hip motion toward the ball forces the spine to curve, rotation to stop, and can actually impede the Right Elbow and its desired Impact alignments, resulting in Throwaway.

Ben Doyle always wants his students to "sit" at Start Down.

Physical factors like tight "hammies" can also play a role.

Chuck always taught me front part of the heels to keep a balanced tripod.

Start at Address
 

7-17 is the perfect start.

Next, I'd find the location of the hips at Impact Fix. When I started using Impact Address (Impact Fix will suffice for mere mortals :rolleyes: ), I found a real difference in the position of my pelvis and the weight on my left heel. All this garbage that I had heard about sticking your butt out and keeping your chin up felt ridiculous. It felt like getting to Impact was impossible with all that curvature in the Lumbar.

If I went from Impact Fix to Adjusted Address, it felt like my belt was at my boobs with no curvature in the Lumbar. Impact felt possible from there.

Wish more people would get just how useful Impact Fix is to a golfer.

Dont anybody make the obvious joke here. He's talk'n 'bout my butt push and I need to know the truth, so dont even think about it Bucket.

And so it goes.........

Heeelo!
 

Is that where the weight stays through out? Also, if the weight is not towards the heel will that prevent a parallel to the plane line move of the hips?

7-17 states "...Address Position loading of the feet is even distribution between both Feet but with enough on the heels to allow the toes to be lifted up momentarily without altering the distribution between heel and toe

I would appreciate additional interpretation of the underlined portion...to make sure that I fully understand. To me it suggests that the toes can be lifted without losing balance, or a need to shift weight?

"The weight on each foot is back through the heel from the ball. You should never feel that the weight is forward on your feet. " p.38 Ben Hogan Power Golf.

I struggle with this too . . . . I think you have to learn to keep your hips from going toward the ball. You have to move your hips laterally down your heel line and then push them up and left. If your hips go toward the target line you'll back up and out of it with your head. It shoots your arms out to the right and makes the shaft lay down way underplane.

My swing thought is keep your bunghole going left and keep it from moving toward the ball/target line. If your hips move toward the target line it can disrupt the hand path major. Finish feeling like the head is outside of the shoulders.

Bucket,
When your hips move forward towards the target line and you come out of your posture- does your face look like this :shock: .
I've got you on video - outside of golf - with the same kind of thing happening- I'll post it up in the next couple of days.

that wasn't to be released to the public yet . . . did you get a bootleg copy?

Chicken or the Egg ?
 

Agree strongly. IMO, there is a direct correlation between waist bend (posture), right elbow bend and left wrist bend at Impact. If any do not return to there Impact Fix conditions, the others will be forced to make compensations :eyes: (reference 7-2).

I think this is why "pop" instruction talks about hips so much. If you don't move your hips in the proper manner you are shifting the theoretical "axis" all over the place . . . . even the most educated set of hands can't over come that. You can feel all the lag pressure in the world and have great alignments in the power package . . . but your vectors will end up being all skewed and the alignments of the face in relation to the path can be FLEATING at best.

So it is a hands controlled pivot . . . BUT . . . the pivot must comply to the intended line of compression and selected plane angle.

El Squatto!
 

And all of this is predicated by where the weight is situated at address...towards the heels? On the heels the parallel shift is possible...towards the toetsies the correct shift is impossible? It is kinda like proper form on squats in that the weight stays through the heels?

Sort of . . . remember you are tilting your "axis" . . . which is sort of the spine . . . so the hips control the lower part of the axis and the upper part is to be basically fixed to have a centered motion. So the lower half . . . bottom of the axis is what moves in space. Inorder to not bob sway you have to move your hips in a certain way. The lever assemblies are connected to the axis so if you get it all whacked out it will monkey up the hand path etc.

but you can have your weight on your heels and still bob/pull out/goat hump by moving your knees/hips in a way that doesn't comply with a centered pivot.

What part of the book is the goat hump listed?

Get your goat ?
 

Start with 2-H-E-L-L. If that doesn't work try 7-2 #4 and 7-15 for starters. Actually, I think he means camel hump.

Thanks Drew. Bucket said he wants a shirt that says "Just Drew It".

Keeping you in stitches
 

Catchy isn't it :thumright ! Of course you put the shirt on right to left.

Selling like hot cakes
 

Actually they are all back-ordered. I have run out of golf shirts. Got any TGM Authorized Instructor Shirts with a big TGM Logo on the chest that I can borrow :whistle: ???

That's toe . . .

Mikey's got one . . . but it's got blood and boogers on it.

LOL...there ain't no day like a Bucket day.

Logo haters, every one of ya! I will send you and AGi shirt but you have to promise to wear it and not let Mike touch it.

Luke would a severe move of the CG towards the ball normally result in a hook?

So the weight should go right heel, left ball, left heel as the hips clear?

The more I think about this the more I wonder whether the spine angle (from a down the line view only, not to preclude axis tilt) should remain constant? No boob , belt convergence.

Thanks
O.B.

hookie hookie
 

1. The reason that it often results in a hook is that the radius has to shorten when you get closer to the ball. If you're shortening the radius, you're not sustaining pressure on the pressure points. Without sustaining pressure, you get clubhead throwaway. Fore left!

2. Yes.

3. It should start more that way and remain more constant, instead of seeing big changes. I wouldn't change Tiger's Impact. I would change his Address to stop some of the Bobbing. But, understand that I'm not feeling sorry for Tiger, his wife, his yacht, his house, etc.

He really used to push his butt in when he was a junior. Almost stand up.

Would you have him stand a little taller at address?

Is a butt thats pushing in a sign of a butt that is addressed too far away to begin with?

Thanks for all the help.

O.B. Left

PS Luke that note about the pressure points is so true. I can feel em dying when I push in. No structure. Brilliant.

Here is an interesting case study. Tiger Woods, the worlds best, the greatest champion ever perhaps tbd, with his driver swing out of wack. Nobody , not even Tiger is exempt from bad swing days. ( Note how he is leading the field here, however.)

If you look at his feet post impact he is up on both sets of toes and then standing up through the shot.

His is not a common butt push , left and right scenario. More of an up and down compression as his head and seat move to the ground and back up, maybe. His head bobbing back up to reestablish his radius. A fair bit of movement, eh?

Luke , Drewit et al, what do you make of this? What out of all of this would you change if he called you guys up for a lesson? Or perhaps you are working with him and dont wish to comment.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8N-N4FEoMY&NR=1


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MN9jq...eature=related

Still working on my left /right encroachment issues, trying to figure out the dynamics of balance.

Thanks
O.B.

Grab that Tiger by the Tail
 

For the first six months...
Get him to understand and establish a Right Forearm Flying Wedge, by changing his right hand grip. Have him start on an Elbow Plane rather than a Hands Plane.

If that doesn't work, whatever the guy in the second video said. Did Peter Allis get a new accent?

That is very interesting. Yoda pm'd me last week with the glossary's definition of Pivot.

"Pivot: Golf-
A multiple universal-joint assembly between the Stationary Head and the Stationary Feet holding the Clubshaft "On Plane" by positioning and adjusting the Lever Assembly, through the #3 accumulator, as directed by the Right Forearm."


These guys are good! Where else would you get info like Luke, Drew and Yoda are laying out here folks?

O.B.

Did he mention anything about announcers with German accents? Just curious.