LynnBlakeGolf Forums - Ted Fort's Hitting Stroke -- Pitching Wedge (Down The Line)

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davel

07-12-2005 08:33 AM

I s Ted using a strong left hand grip?

Dave

tincup2004

07-12-2005 06:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by davel

I s Ted using a strong left hand grip?

Dave

From another post in the Emergency Room - Hitters section (thread title is Max hitting distances I think) :

Quote:

Originally Posted by YodasLuke

Would you identify your component variations for component #1 through #9?

Sure...
1. 10-1-A, Overlapping
2. 10-2-B, Strong single action
3. 10-3-A, Punch
4. 10-4-D, Four Barrel
5. 10-5-B, Square-Open
6. 10-6-B, Turned Shoulder
7. 10-7-A, Zero or No Shift
8. 10-8-B, Special
9. 10-9-B, Impact

YodasLuke

07-12-2005 06:48 PM

turned hand

Quote:

Originally Posted by tincup2004

Quote:

Originally Posted by davel

I s Ted using a strong left hand grip?

Dave

From another post in the Emergency Room - Hitters section (thread title is Max hitting distances I think) :

Quote:

Originally Posted by YodasLuke

When I practice, there are times that my left hand will revert to my original turned position. If and when the left hand gets turned and I want to leave it that way, I simply focus on keeping the left arm flying wedge in tact. In other words, the more turned the left hand becomes, it equates to a left wrist bend at the top. This is reason for quotation marks around "flat" when he describes the "flat" left wrist as an imperative. It should be a flat left wrist or it's equivalent. When you truly understand the orientation of the flying wedges, this puzzle starts coming together. 10-2-B is the suggested grip for both hitting and swinging. If you vary, you simply need to know the implications. Once you master a pattern, changing a component is possible without the stroke going to hades in a handbasket.

golfchicago

10-23-2005 08:47 PM

Trying is believing!

I saw this video this morning and shuttered at the closed club position during the backswing and I thought what am I getting myself into here. Today i met with a member on this site who explained some hitting concepts and i swung with this same concept of a shut face and I hit the ball great. Thus starts my journey!( I had to come back and edit my post twice due to bad spelling. I guess I'm so excited about this change, I'm not concentrating on the keyboard!)

Daryti

10-24-2005 08:50 PM

Ted, you said you are using a square/open line and we also talk about using 10-5-E (closed/closed) for hitting. I know you can use any, it is an option but as we are all learning, is there any main characters that one suits one better? For example, body type; unable to make a hip slide to the right; big shoulder etc...

Daryti

11-02-2005 09:06 PM

Any comments? Sometimes just don't understand why there is no feedback on some threads.:(

phillygolf

11-03-2005 04:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yoda

Eddie,

For the Hitter using the Angle of Approach procedure, the 'old' Plane Angle with its Straight Line Baseline is gone. It served its purpose by locating the Stroke's Impact Point and Low Point. Through these two points passes its derivative -- the Straight Line Angle of Approach Delivery Line. This Visual Equivalent thus determined, the original Plane ceases to exist (2-J-3).

The Hitter with his Clubhead now Covers -- not Traces or 'points at' -- this new Delivery Line. And whatever Inclined Plane the Sweetspot must utilize to make this journey is now the Inclined Plane of the Stroke.

Whoa.....!!!Holy crap....

That is some deep dep stuff!

phillygolf

11-03-2005 04:35 AM

[quote=EC][quote="Yoda"]

Quote:

Originally Posted by 12 piece bucket

Yoda,

The "New" inclined plane still has a straight baseline doesn't it? And, wouldn't the low end of the club either point at or cover it, or the clubshaft would be parallel to it? I'm just trying to reconcile in my mind the geometry of having the clubshaft on plane. Not to pick on Ted (I LOVE his motion), but I was originally asking that if we looked at each of the still positions of his video, aren't there times when the club is off plane by definition? Quite frankly, I think that impact is where it's at, but I spend a lot of time with students working on plane, and I do not want to misinform any of them, ever.]

Congrats to you, Bagger, and Trigolt...this site is a wonderful experience!

EC

I see EC's point....

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yoda

Lynn,
EC has a good point...

Are you saying that, once the original planeline is established...it ceases to exist for the Hitter and the 'new' delivery line???

Confused!!!

Thanks,
Patrick

tongzilla

11-03-2005 05:23 AM

This is an area of confusion I also have to sort out.

Lets see if I can put this clearly.

For the Hitter using Angle of Approach procedure, the Angle of Approach effectively becomes the new Plane Line. Every stroke has to have a straight Plain Line, and for the Hitter, this has now become Angle of Approach. Just look at 10-5-E. That is exactly what I mean. How Closed your new Plain Line is depends how far your ball is behind Low Point.

Now, when you're making a golf stroke on an Inclined Plane, you are, by default, also tracing its Plane Line (whether that Plane Line is the basic geometric plane line of the Angle of Approach). See photo in 10-5-E.

So I would say that although the Hitter sees the Clubhead visually (it's not actually covering- because the Plane would have to be vertical for that to happen!) covering his new Plane Line (the Angle of Approach), he is actually Tracing is also.
Just look at 10-5-E.
How can she be swinging on that Inclined plane and not trace or point at this Angle of Approach? Impossible! This contradicts what Yoda was saying - that the Hitter does not Trace this new Delivery Line, but just covers it. However, I believe Yoda was trying to make a different point...but I just don't know what it is.

phillygolf

11-03-2005 05:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tongzilla

For the Hitter using Angle of Approach procedure, the Angle of Approach effectively becomes the new Plane Line. Every stroke has to have a straight Plain Line, and for the Hitter, this has now become Angle of Approach. Just look at 10-5-E. That is exactly what I mean. How Closed your new Plain Line is depends how far your ball is behind Low Point.

Agreed my friend!!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by tongzilla

Now, when you're making a golf stroke on an Inclined Plane, you are, by default, also tracing its Plane Line (whether that Plane Line is the basic geometric plane line of the Angle of Approach). See photo in 10-5-E.

Keep in mind...its the 'new' plane....thats whats confused me...the original is still intact, no? Arbitrarily....:)

Quote:

Originally Posted by tongzilla

So I would say that although the Hitter sees the Clubhead visually (it's not actually covering- because the Plane would have to be vertical for that to happen!) covering his new Plane Line (the Angle of Approach), he is actually Tracing is also.

Close...

How can you see the angle of approach if you arent in a position to see it? Does the clubhead cover it???

Just look at 10-5-E.
How can she be swinging on that Inclined plane and not trace or point at this Angle of Approach? Impossible! This contradicts what Yoda was saying - that the Hitter does not Trace this new Delivery Line, but just covers it. However, I believe Yoda was trying to make a different point...but I just don't know what it is.[/quote]

Hmm...not sure...I think, in the angle of approach procedure...the hitter still traces the original planeline....which confuses the hel outta me!!!!!!!!!!!

ChrisNZ

11-03-2005 04:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tongzilla

I would have thought this was the other way around - the clubhead actually covers the angle of approach, not visually covers it (although as the clubhead gets closer and closer to the ground it would get closer and closer to visually covering it as well). Why do I think this? Because the location of our eyes isn't part of the geometry of the stroke - if my neck grew 20 feet then visually covering the angle of approach would change the geometry (the length of my neck would affect the geometry of the stroke). But then I take your point about the plane having to be verticle if the plane is really closed - so perhaps it neither visually nor vertically covers the line (exactly) with 10-5-E. With an angle of approach procedure and a plane line that was square, it would actually (vertically) cover the angle of approach though, wouldn't it?

Chris

tongzilla

11-03-2005 05:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChrisNZ

The Angle of Approach procedure requires a Closed Plane Line per 10-5-E. Hence you are not using an Angle of Approach procedure if your Plane Line is Square (10-5-A), even though you are tracing the Angle of Approach that is inscribed on the Inclined Plane.
The Angle of Approach, Arc of Approach and the Straight Plane Line are all inscribed on the face of the Inclined Plane, whether it is Open, Square or Closed. Hence if your club is On Plane, you will be Tracing all of these lines.
For the new Closed Plane Line, which was the Angle of Approach of the old Basic Geometric Plane Line, there will also be an Angle of Approach Line inscribed on this new Inclined Plane. However, there is no Angle of Approach to an Angle of Approach procedure (so you will not be using this new Angle of Approach as your Delivery Line).
The Angle of Approach of your old Plane Line now becomes the basic Plane Line with the Angle of Approach procedure. Every stroke must have a Straight Plane Line. This Angle of Approach Delivery Line is automatically traced if the Club is On Plane.
It is necessary to have a steeper Plane Angle when using the Angle of Approach procedure. This complements the visual covering by the Clubhead of the Angle of Approach.

ChrisNZ

11-03-2005 06:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tongzilla

The Angle of Approach procedure requires a Closed Plane Line per 10-5-E. Hence you are not using an Angle of Approach procedure if your Plane Line is Square (10-5-A), even though you are tracing the Angle of Approach that is inscribed on the Inclined Plane.
The Angle of Approach, Arc of Approach and the Straight Plane Line are all inscribed on the face of the Inclined Plane, whether it is Open, Square or Closed. Hence if your club is On Plane, you will be Tracing all of these lines.
For the new Closed Plane Line, which was the Angle of Approach of the Geometric Plane Line, there is also an Angle of Approach. However, there is no Angle of Approach to an Angle of Approach procedure.
The Angle of Approach of your old Plane Line now becomes the basic Plane Line with the Angle of Approach procedure. Every stroke must have a Straight Plane Line. This Angle of Approach Delivery Line is automatically traced if the Club is On Plane.
It is necessary to have a steeper Plane Angle when using the Angle of Approach procedure. This complements the visual covering by the Clubhead of the Angle of Approach.

Thanks for your post!

To your points in turn:

1. My mistake - you can obviously use the angle of approach as per 2-J-something or other (the bit about visual equivalents), but that musn't be the angle of approach procedure?

2. A really good point and a fog lifter for me - you have to watch those visual illusions!!!

3. I think I get this. Maybe. But don't ask me to explain it!

4. I get this.

5. But still, you'll only get true visual covering if the plane is so steep it's an eye plane!!! Nonetheless, as the clubhead gets close to the ground it will start to approximately cover the plane line visually (right?). I see now that it won't vertically cover it for reason 2 above.

Chris

tongzilla

11-03-2005 07:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChrisNZ

2-J-3 is describing the Angle of Approach procedure. There is an Angle of Approach line inscribed on every Inclined Plane, whether it's Open, Square or Closed, hence this Angle of Approach is being traced as long as the Club is On Plane. However, this does not mean you're using the Angle of Approach procedure, i.e. using Angle of Approach as a Delivery Line (Guide Line) for the Clubhead. Reviewing my previous post may clarify this.
You should get visual covering by the Clubhead of the Angle of Approach approximately one feet forward/back of the ball. Always confirm by monitoring the blur of Clubhead path. Yes, it requires a steeper Plane Angle. See Ted Fort's pitch.
The Angle of Approach procedure can only be used with 10-5-E. However, the converse of this statement is not necessarily true. It is absolutely possible to use a Closed Plane Line (10-5-E) without using the Angle of Approach procedure. In this case, there is no need to 'cover' this Closed Plane Line, which may or may not be the proxy for the Angle of Approach (this is irrelevant). A Swinger wishing to impart Hook Spin on the ball would do just that (combined with a relatively more forward ball location).

ChrisNZ

11-03-2005 08:49 PM

I think my confusion stems from whether we're talking about the angle of approach on the inclined plane, or it's visual equivalent on the ground. For 10-5-E, the one on the ground is the reference for constructing a new plane line, right? But once you've got the new plane line, forget both the old plane, and any new angle of approach visual equivalent. Trace the new plane line and the clubhead will (approximately) visually cover the (old visual equivalent) angle of approach through the bottom of it's arc.

I think I have further confusion stemming from the fact that not only does the clubhead have a path that can be described in various ways, but so too do the hands have a path, which can be described in the same way. So for example, in the 10-5-E procedure, does the right forearm operate parallel to the old (clubhead) angle of approach (that is the new planeline, and so directly behind the club), or does it have a new angle of approach? I'm guessing the former. If so, would the latter be using the closed plane line without using the "angle of approach procedure"?

Chris

tongzilla

11-04-2005 04:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChrisNZ

The Angle of Approach that the player sees on the ground represents the actual Angle of Approach insribed on the face of the Inclined Plane. Hence from the player's visual perspective, they the same.
Yes, you disregard the old Plane Line once the new 10-5-E Closed Plane Line (proxy to the Angle of Approach of the old Plane) has been set.
Once 10-5-E has been established, the player tries to visually cover it with his clubhead. In doing so, what actually happens is that he is tracing his new 10-5-E Closed Plane Line. Remember, every stroke must have a Straight Plane Line being traced (whether or not your are actually trying to trace it), and you are tracing the 10-5-E Plane Line if you're using 10-5-E.
As you have correctly stated, the hands must necessarily travel on a different path when using the new Plane Line, simply because the whole Inclined Plane has rotated, and the Hands always travel down that Plane.
The Right Forearm must always trace a Plane Line, regardless if it's Open, Square or Closed. If you're using 10-5-E, your Right Forearm will be tracing 10-5-E. In other words, you would set up your Right Forearm Angle of Approach (which is a different concept to the Impact-Low Point Angle of Approach concept) on 10-5-E. Ideally, with your Clubshaft in-line with your Right Forearm, you should automatically be tracing 10-5-E by using the Clubhead to cover the new Plane Line (The Angle of Approach procedure).
Using the Closed Plane Line without the Angle of Approach procedure simply means that you are not using the Angle of Approach as a Delivery Line to guide the path of your Clubhead. Hence there is no need to 'cover' the Closed Plane Line. In either case, your Right Forearm is always tracing the base of the Inclined Plane.

Daryti

11-04-2005 04:50 AM

tongzilla:
"The Angle of Approach procedure requires a Closed Plane Line per 10-5-E"

Since Ted is using an open stance not 10-5-E, therefore he is not using the angle of approach?

hue	11-04-2005 05:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by YodasLuke

What wind?! And, yes, the spin rate is very high, making ball selection very important.

Ted I also generate a high spin rate. What ball ended up being your ball of choice ?

tongzilla

11-04-2005 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daryti

tongzilla:
"The Angle of Approach procedure requires a Closed Plane Line per 10-5-E"

Since Ted is using an open stance not 10-5-E, therefore he is not using the angle of approach?

Closed Plane Line.

10-5-E may be used with Open, Square or Closed stance lines, which is independent of Plane Line direction. These stance line variations are all classified under 10-5-E.

Ted is using the Angle of Approach procedure.

Daryti

11-06-2005 09:14 AM

Assuming that I am using an angle of approach, how do you know which stance should be used for what shot? The reason I am asking is that I still experimenting and any comments will definitely solve my puzzle. On 3, 5, 7 woods, I been using closed stance and the shot is great. But for 6, 7 iron shots sometimes I hit the top. I am not sure if that is due to the lie or the stance. On wedge shot, however I am using a square stance.

The closed stance for wood shots allow me to hit with my right forearm! I am still learning..

tongzilla

11-06-2005 04:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daryti

Usually, players prefer an Open stance for shorter strokes, and then gradually becoming more Closed as you hit longer clubs. However, Open stance does not have to be restricted to shorter shots, and Closed stance does not have to be restricted to longer shots. Open stance promotes shorter backstroke pivot, and opposite is true for Closed stance. Your stance really has nothing to do with the Angle of Approach procedure. For now, I suggest you use whatever stance line that gives you the best results. However, always establish your Plane Line exactly the way you want it before every shot!

There are guys around here with a lot of real teaching experience. Maybe they can share the relative merits of different stance/plane line combinations.

ram1golf

01-09-2006 07:49 PM

viewing gallery video

Is anyone else not able to view the video clips? I cannot get my media player to play any of them. My Media player does play clip found on another site.

Trig	01-13-2006 10:58 AM

This video

Quote:

Originally Posted by ram1golf

Is anyone else not able to view the video clips? I cannot get my media player to play any of them. My Media player does play clip found on another site.

This particular video will not play in your Media player. It runs in a special application called Dartfish which is on our server. When you click the link, Dartfish should automatically load and you can play the clip. Dartfish has lots of features including frame by frame views and text analysis, which Yoda has added.

birdie_man

01-13-2006 11:58 AM

I usually go from open to closed (feet) from shorter to longer clubs....

Have been screwing around with Hitting letely......a closed stance has been working well for me.

....I don't like just pre-turning my hips (closed).

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