That's what it boils down to.

Ed, there is always a Hinge Action for you and I. We sustain the line of Compression.

I agree that the amount of #3 can Vary, but Zero Acc. #3 cannot produce all Hinge Actions, although Hinge Motion can be duplicated.

I've got your back.

You da man.............:)

This has resolved me to do a lot of basic motion work during the rest of the winter.

1) Is it more important to work on the 2 feet back, 2 feet through or should there also be a target?

2) Is it advisable to use the Taly when practicing the basic motion?

3) As before, is there any club more preferred to work with?

4) Amazingly the limited practice facilities at my club do include any area big enough to work on basic motion. Is it a case of getting a big pile of balls and working away for 30 minutes or so or is a more structured from more appropraite?

Thanks in advance.

In my opinion.

1) Good to have a target. You can do wonders for your short game while working on your impact alignments.

2) I like to start with the Taly to make sure I am using the proper alignments, then recheck as needed.

3) I like to use my sand wedge, but it's your choice. Just make sure it is never so flat a loft that you feel you have to help it in the air to fly onto the target you have chosen.

4) In that case I would do a combination of just working structure on the range, along with going out on the course with 3 or 4 balls as traffic allows.

Kevin

Thanks Kev, think my original post got lost in all the traffic.

No problem my friend, but don't take that as gospel. I would like to hear some of the others ideas as well.
:golf:
Kevin

Daryl,

Reading it as Homer wrote "your bolding" in post 32 it just further proves my point.

With zero #3 in basic motion one can employ any of the three hinge actions the clubhead will always finish in the same spot at follow through (both arms straight approx. two feet through) because of zero #3, but the face can be laying back (vertical hinge), closed (horizontal hinge), or closed and laying back (angled hinge). These follow throughs reflect the clubfaces motion through impact and seperation. As edz pointed out the essence of Chapter 2.

Now Zero #3 can make the plane steeper which could make a Vertical Hinge easier to achieve than a Horizontal, but still all three can be achieved.

I know this because my machine can produce these shots, and I've taught it and seen it taught by many of the finest Golfing Machine Teachers in the Land!

Sorting Through the Circuit Player's Handbook and Instructor's Textbook.

B-Ray

Bray I love that avatar of yours. What club house is that in the background? The sweaters nice too....sorry for the "thread" jack...thats for Drew, I know it pretty bad.

B-Ray,

I appreciate your response. I do understand your point of view that one can simulate the Clubface motions associated with the three basic planes while zero-ing out the #3 Accumulator. I don't doubt that you perform this flawlessly and I've seen it done by others as well. I’m not an instructor but I understand the need to teach Hinging in an understandable way.

I’m struggling with two separate issues with naming this demonstration – “Hinge Action”. I'm not opposed to naming it Hinge Action for teaching purposes but I don't think that it's Hinge Action exactly by the book.

First, we all agree that with Zero #3 Accumulator, “all Lag Loading and Hinge Action have Angled Hinging Travel AND Rhythm”. Second, we also agree that the Rotating Shoulders impart “Roll” (closing) to the Clubface.

In your demonstration, Basic Motion prohibits shoulder rotation, “Roll” as we know it, and Zero #3 Accumulator allows only Drive Loading and Angled Hinging Travel and Rhythm.

We have the term “Swivel” which is a rotation of the wrists not dependent on shoulder turn. So, we have the warning; "intentional use of zero accumulator #3 can be useful while unintentional use can be hazardous". I could be wrong, but to me it means Unintentional use (zero acc #3) can be hazardous because Hinge Action must be replaced by a "perfectly timed Swivel" if Hinging other than Angled is attempted.

This is a very long discussion that I believe to be all wrong!
In fact I think this whole accumulator #3 and basic motion is an error.
I 'Think" basic motion is an "around impact-low point" exercise, a minerature REAL swing.
I use as my examples LB own work.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vMEHl... 54514&index=0

LB basic motion

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yt6DU... 54514&index=2

Lynn Blake and V.J. Trolio

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GiRxb...eature=related

vj basic motion

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHBfy... 54514&index=7

LB teaching Basic motion

Please continue the discussion with the above examples and my comment in mind.

I need to get this basic motion stuff into my head correctly

Thanks
The Bear

Hey Bear do you have the book? There is often some confusion because the entire section 12-5 is labelled the "Basic Motion Curriculum" and includes 12-5-1 Stage One . Basic Motion. 12-5-2 Stage Two. Acquired Motion. 12-5-3 Stage Three. Total Motion. You can see the problem there with people referring to the whole curriculum as "Basic Motion". Those videos you listed are for the most part displaying some work in 12-5-2 Stage Two, Acquired Motion.

In 12-5-1 Stage One, Basic Motion , the list is very specific and says amongst other things, " 2 feet back and 2 through" . First with a short iron and then with a putter. It doesnt get any more Basic than that does it. Were talking about about putt here and not a very long one even.

Good luck with it all.
Ob

Thanks O.B.- Yes, I do own the book. 2 copies. the one I refer to most is very dog eared, many loose pages, many colored highlights, 3 or 4 rubber bands to hold it together.
Although I am trained as an engineer I need a forum to work through understanding. I also use all the video clips I can find because they demonstrate LB and other teaching and their understanding of HK's book. Putting is an individual thing and I do not subscribe to it as part of the process, but thats a different story. I took up golf in the early 60's (yes 50 years ago) and learned on my own to "wail the hell" out of the ball. Locked arms, locked wrist straight arms. turn it up and back and crank it down and around. 250-260 straight, wood headed driver, and somewhere I could find it. 1/2 hour on the practice tee an my feet would screw into the ground 4 inches. Often shot in the high 80's at the likes of Torrey Pines South- was $4 green fee in that day and Billy Casper was the tour Pro. But I have not played a lot over the years. you know family etc are more important. I am retired and live in NH. I have pulled the clubs out and decided to do some serious (read correct) swing work this winter as I plan a long family vacation to the west coast next summ an I may even take my clubs. But I want to do it right this time.

This thread has taken a slight detour but it is still a discussion about Basic Motion.

Long discussions are good. This one has the makings of a great discussion and could go on forever.

"around impact-low point" as you commented. Yes. "Miniature real swing", Yes.

We seem to have reached a sticking point that we're working through. It's a small and maybe inconsequential detail. We agree that using Basic Motion (zero #3 Accumulator, etc.) we can either use any of the 3 basic hinges or "Mimic" any of the 3 basic Hinges.

Which is it? I'm not 100% sure myself. That's why I've asked for clarification and discussion.

I know that to many, it seems silly to even care.

Glad you're here HungryBear.

Yes, welcome HungryBear. Now I'm not the oldest! :) :salut:

Kevin

Daryl,

In post 46 where do you get your definition of swivel?

Hinge Action is defined by the book as:
Holding the Flat Left Wrist Vertical to one of the basic planes will impart the same motion to the clubface.

Those motions are
closing-horizontal hinge
layingback-vertical hinge
or closing and layingback angled hinge

This is exacly what's happening in basic motion....the travel of the clubhead is the same when power accumulator 3 is zeroed out, but the hinge action can vary for the shot at hand.

Now you bring up the word swivel
First swivel is not in The 7th ed Golfing Machine Glossary
so we can go to 4-D-0 as reccommended by the index.
There swivel is defined as "actually rotate the left wrists" or later in the paragraph "actually rotate their wrists"

If we define swivel as a rotation of the wrists then all hinge actions have swivel even vertical hinge could be called a reverse roll or swivel.

Now if we look further into this passage it says that

Players must Swivel-actually rotate their wrists-to the parallel to the plane position for the finish after follow through.
We could then define a finish swivel as the rotations of the wrists into the parallel to the plane finish after the follow through.

This means there is swivel in all shots with hinge action, but there is not a finish swivel in a basic motion because follow through is the end of the stroke.

Also I would further state any shot with a flat left wrist has a hinge action.

Sorting Through the Duffer's Bible.

B-Ray

I can't disagree. I can get by the Rhythm issue, but I just can't get passed the "Differences in Travel" issue.

The difference in travel is certainly related to the amount of #3, but that isn't hinge action or motion.

Hinge action is strickly a clubface/compression concept and ONLY applies from impact to separation. It is a ball/club relationship, nothing to do with the body or anything else at its root.

Line of Compression? Doesn't it depend on both clubface rotation and path?

It depends on force vectors, so yes the path is part of the equation, but only as related to the plane/plane line. The ball doesn't care about #3 angle per se. Your feel as a player may, but the ball doesn't care.

Perhaps this conversation can be moved to its own thread, as we are on a bit of a tangent from the original post.

Right forearm on plane- ways to do it?
 

Let me see if I have the essential concept. If I hold the club with a right palm grip ala Moe Norman or use a 10 finger baseball grip, wouldn't I be on the elbow plane back and through?
I'm sorry if this is a stupendously dumb question. I start with my TGM instructor in April and have been trying to decipher the book on my own for over a year.:salut:

Welcome ICT!

There is an old thread with several meaty posts from YODA. The best tutorial on flying wedges you'll find!

http://www.lynnblakegolf.com/forum/s...t=flying+wedge

I hope you are doing well, Kevin.
 

I am reading/re-reading these posts and the magic of the RF. There is a lot there.

Do you use the "pick-up and chop technique?" That's what AJ teaches, sort-of, in his DVD series and that guy never gave me my money back after I sent his dvd's back. I think I was mistaking my "punch elbow" for this motion when I started! LMAO

I now know the differences and can do them, sometimes, on purpose. :eyes:

Can you use a horizontal hinge for anything besides draws and running chips? I kept hooking my HH on the range, today, with good power. Do I need to open my stance and play the ball up or something? It is just such a tempting, simple motion to ignore trying it. :laughing9

Level wrists-horizontal door hinge with forearm fan and elbow, and REVERSE the fan? The ball jumps and HOOKs. Maybe if I shoot the elbow horizontally with no fanning along my belt line parallel to target line, as a downstroke while freezing RFW like crazy!!!???? That could be sweet!

:golfcart:

I'm getting a little greedy, Kevin. I know TGM works. I WANT THE DISTANCE!
Today, I casually swung my sand iron to almost 100 yards (normally 80) without any real effort. As I swung, I tried to feel the club head on my index finger. I kept losing it while playing though, it was so cold! I'm hitting it so solidly, there has to be some power around here somewhere!
There has to be some power hiding. Barely moving my putter with my elbow drives my putts like a splinter in a tornado! It has to work on drives, somehow!
Anyway, thanks for the help! :)

Patrick

Hang on! I just started "slice fixer!"
 

Should've read tthis one first!!!!!

:crybaby:

Patrick,

Nothing wrong with horizontal hinging!!!

Nothing wrong with angled hinging either, but it's still player preference. I am a "slinger" from way back, and its a tough habit to change. I can't totally get rid of that action, but I am focusing on getting that club back on plane on the downstroke as much as I can, along with keeping my horizontal hinge.

Patrick, I found long ago, always thought it was a compensation, that I need to set up with the clubface open to solve that hooking problem you are having. I can still focus on down and out with my hinge action, and my preferred ball flight when I was a player was sort of what the S&Ters call a push draw. I LOVE that. Here is what I believe is a great visual for we horizontal hingers at set up.

Kevin

Good stuff, Kev. Because my worst shot historically had been a push slice, I was always scared to have anything resembling an open face at set up. At my last two range sessions, I manned up and opened the face some, just for kicks. Of course I play with a strong grip, but it didn't slice off the range.

Listen to Kevin and open up the face some, Patrick. You'll be able to keep the HH feel and the distance it's giving you without hooking the heck out of it.

Success has many family members! I was "lifting and chopping" the wrong way trying to chop with the right hand heel pad. The ball really took off but had the slightest fade, so I'll remember that.
I love the idea of HH and an open face (hot turkey sand. lol). I am on page 31 of "Swingers'encyclopedia" and have decided to read it with club in hand. Is HH with a slight open face the "Knuckle fade" of Hogan?

Quick, where is my club (I always have one in my closet at school for lunch break)?

Patrick

Regardless of the hinging you employ (assuming contact on the sweetspot) the ball fades because the path vector is left of the face vector. So you can hit the left to right spinning shot with any hinge action so long as the above rule isn't violated.

Thanks, I shall and I am looking forward to the experience.
 

Will vary ball position in the arc also!

Thanks!

Patrick:)

Absolutely . . . the closer you position the ball to low point (closer to left shoulder) the less "out" in the plane . . . has big implications . . . .

In addition how much shaft lean has an effect as well . . . leaning the shaft produces more "out" . . . delofts the face generally . . . and can open the face . . . and increases the angle of attack.

so ball more back = more "out" 'til you get to low point . . . handle forward = more out until you get to low point.

The shaft lean piece (right wrist bend amount) is why Homer didn't make right wrist bend an imperative. The left wrist is always flat . . . but the right wrist bend can will and does vary for ball position and the shot at hand.