I was graduating from High school that year and was in Mayo Clinic.
 

There was a special broadcast of the game in the room or highlights and I had just gotten my last set of pins removed from my hip and everyone was a Flyer for awhile!

Nice Video OB. BTW, I would never do anything to Daryl except take notes when he made a suggestion and cough in his back swing while on the green.:laughing9

Patrick

I did not want to do this, but, if U in insist. the devil makes me do it. Bring your own broom!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GO3gP...eature=related

The "Develish" Bear

Best basketball coach I ever had NEVER let us full court scrimmage. Always drills and half court scrimmage with lots of stops and replays (i.e. coaching). Years later, I asked him why. He said "I wanted the GAME to be the fun part that you guys looked forward to..."

If you tossed me a basketball today, some 30 years later, I'd shoot with no hesitation and no thought for my form -- I'd just be looking at the front of the rim trying to make it. If we played a pick-up game, I'd just be reacting to situations and PLAYING -- zero thought about form.

That has always been tough for me with golf (which I didn't pick up until I was 20 years old, vs. basketball with I've been playing since I was 10 or 11).

That's the right idea.

There's probably something to this to a certain extent . . . HOWEVER . . . . golf is a much more precise motion and "internally" generated. Some people just "naturally" and "instinctively" stumble upon the correct set of "fundamentals". Some people stumble upon the "right teacher" too. That teacher may sell one bottle of pills and some students may need that pill others may not but get that teacher's pill anyhow. In addition the concept of shooting a basketball is pretty intuitive. However with golf a poor concept of how the game works can be debilitating e.g. the PGA ball flight rules, not understanding the face, not understanding down out and forward. You said in hoops you "don't think about it" . . . you just look at the rim. What do you look at in golf? You can't look at your ultimate target . . . . what is your intention in golf? Some of the same problems exist in hoops . . . Larry Bird regularly shot 90% in free throws . . . . Shack's mom would be dead as door nail if he had to sink a free throw to save her life. Basketball is a great game lots of things apply from hoops to golf . . . but I think from a movement stand point golf is much more demanding of precision and complicated in terms of movement required.

So with golf be sure that your concepts and intentions are correct . . . then start working on the movements that achieve the imperatives.

Bucket's In the Building -- Y'all Pay Attention!
 

Bucket,

I've said many times, "This guy is good!" Your post proves it . . .

Again!

:salut:

Paraphrase

Daryl Asked: Mr. Kelley, is Swinging as difficult as some would say?

And Homer said: You could practically sleep while swinging.

Daryl said: Hmm? Thank you.





Sorry everyone, I couldn't resist.

The point was not about how close basketball is to golf in difficulty, but rather where my concentration is in executing the fundamentals of each "stroke." Golf is a more intricate set of movements with finer tolerances -- but then again, no one is looking to block your shot, either! ;-)

In basketball, I practiced at practice, but played in the game. I struggle to "play" golf, tending to stay in practice mode (thinking too much about how to swing) when on the course.

If you've ever heard of the Consciously/Unconsciously and Competent/Incompetent matrix, I'm Unconsciously Competent in basketball and with golf on a good day, I'm Consciously Competent -- still thinking myself through the swing.

My goal with golf, and esp. hitting, is to learn a set of fundamentals that takes advantage of my athletic ability, doesn't require the flexibility of my youth, and let's me be more consciously involved (versus all the "automatic" release stuff in swinging).

In golf, I take a last look at the target then look at the ball (or impact point, depending on what is working that day). I usually try to have just one swing thought like hands down the plane, or down and out, or something simple. Or, I'm concentrating on replicating a certain feeling that has worked or that I am working on from the range. Extensor action has been working pretty well as a feeling, esp. with longer clubs.

Ultimately, I do realize that I have to have good mechanics and then inculcate those feelings. I really like the idea of dowels and maybe impact bag at home, because I think you can be very close on mechanics but start compensating when there is a ball and a shot involved.

I absolutely agree about the different pills -- I tried a Haney book before finding this site and I could barely hit a ball! Like I said originally, when I first started playing at 20, I think I was a natural hitter. I'd play 3-wood off the ground as my tee shot and I can remember just beating down (and out I do believe) and hitting it pretty long. Then came the articles on sweeping your woods, etc. and here I am nearly 30 years later trying to re-learn what came kind of naturally...

I know what you mean. To the extent that I am a competent ball striker most of the competence is hidden from the surface most of the time.

Whenever I recover from a struggle with the game I tend to relearn a series of old lessons before I'm back on track. I know all of it, but I can't go around and think about every little important detail for every stroke. When I stand over the ball I want to take dead aim and only think about impact, ball flight and the target.

Most of us probably have a lot to learn from the pro's when it comes to preshot routine and preparation for each chot. They seem to be much better at keeping what they've got working without overthinking the stroke.

Chapter #14
 

Its all in Chapter #14

HB

In golf . . . you block your own shot :eyes:

Isn't the idea to translate mechanics into "feel" and then "make the motion"?

Bucket ("I love you, man"), I don't disagree with anything you've said (you're a genius), but isn't the ultimate goal to be able to simply "Turn it loose". You know,uuuummmmmmmmmmmmmm (Chant)....become "One with the Universe", or as Chevy Chase would say, "Become the Ball".

Sure . . . this is where we need Mike O . . . . he knows something about this junk. BUT . . . the procedure is prior the motion . . . and the motion preceeds the feel. You got many people out here playing by "feel" . . . feel in relation to WHAT? That is why I think the machine is so valuable. First you have the proceedures or patterns listed in 12 . . . BUT you also have the components to BUILD a custom pattern. So you can actually DEFINE the components (hopefully they fit together) but it's up to the player what proceedure the choose . . . but CHOOSE SOMETHING . . . don't just be like "yeah man . . . I'm a feel player." Feel is like a woman . . . the rules change in the middle of the game. As you know the principles are the absolutes . . . they never change . . . their application or misapplication is up to the golfer . . . if advised by the instructor hopefully you get much more than "how did that feel" . . . "you were quick on that one" . . . "swing out to the right to make the ball start to the right". Procedure is hopefully based on an efficent application of the absolutes with each component structured to achieve a defined result or preference. But all that junk orta be known.

Perfect. But I don't know about Mike O. He's become metaphysical about it. I think it has something to do with where he lives and all of those farm animals.

I live out here where we like John Wayne, Johnny Cash and John Deere!

P.S. I see the 12 piece (wishful thinking dude!) - has threadjacked another thread - against forum rules.:confused1 - some things just never change.

WAY too true!

I firmly believe that good mechanics HAVE to precede feeling, else compensations creep in and become ingrained. And bad habits are hard to break, since the right mechanics don't feel right!

I've been doing a lot of the chipping -- 2 ft back, 2 ft through. When I try to put some umph in, I can nearly break my left wrist with the right wrist "flip" that ends up happening!

This winter, I'm setting up a station in the basement for chipping up through acquired motion. Will also spend quality time with the impact bag I made.

Someone mentioned practicing with a dowel(s)? What's that one?

Thats ultimate goal for the golfer too I believe Brian. Its very difficult to get there, however. No one stays there permanently. Not even the Worlds number 1 it would seem. But golf is a fickle game and even a hacker has a few shining, albeit brief moments of basking in its glory.

It can be like trying to hold water in your hands.

I know of a few instructors , writers etc who discuss this thing......the " zone" or whatever you want to call it. Bob Rotella, Sean Foley etc.

One of my absolute fave's alludes to it in his mission statement in fact. With a mention of how to get there even, contained within a few sentences;



" I Teach.......

MOTION

1. Learned Mechanically
2. Aligned Geometrically
3. Performed Subconsciously "


His name? Why Lynn Blake of course.


P.S. Like basketball , golf can be, at its simplest, just you, (your brain) and your pressure points. Point, shoot. Like throwing bean bags or something. TGM reduces down to this simplicity, but it takes a serious amount of work to get there. You were there in basketball, few are regularly anyways at golf. But it remains a goal, THE goal for me anyways. In the end ultimately, we are not scientists , we are artists, performers.

Hey Patrick (he said to himself) it's not a position, it's a pressure, THE LAG....
 

...THE LAG PRESSURE!!!!

Thanks OB, Daryl, everyone. I have learned even more, today, about the sweet momentum, the lag, which is dormant in each club. If I may, I would liken each club to being like Sleeping Beauty, who was coaxed from sleep to passion by the gentle touch of her prince. (GET AWAY FROM THE CIALIS, DARYL!)


What am I speaking about?


Yoda, 1969, Two Plane Lines One Feel:"However, G.O.L.F. being the precision system that it is, Homer was then compelled to drill down a little deeper, and in 2-F he states that The Golfing Machine application for the #3 Pressure Point, the Plane Angle, and its Plane Line always refers to the Center of Gravity application (the Sweet Spot). This was his way of resolving the rather incongruous fact that there really are two different Inclined Planes of Motion (that of the Club shaft and that of the Sweet Spot) and yet they are both controlled by the #3 Pressure Point tracing only one baseline, namely that of the orbiting Sweet Spot.

The club is an instrument with a soul, like a fine musical instrument. It is not activated until it is touched by a person with sensitivity to the needs and wants of the club's design.

The club does not cooperate unless it is on its inclined plane. It wants structure and stability before yielding it's sweetest prize of power and flowing, smooth precision. It comes alive as a person's # 3 PP gently restrains it's upswing momentum. But it is then fully alive only with the cooperation and timing of the Pivot and the smooth thrust of # 3 PP.

The reason the one #3 Pressure Point can control both Planes of Motion while Tracing only one Plane Line (that of the Sweet Spot)can be found in 5-0. The Hands executing the Third Imperative -- via the Right Forearm and #3 Pressure Point Tracing -- automatically dictate total Component compliance with the Delivery Line (Sweet Spot Plane Line) requirements.And that includes the Club shaft. This means that when the Sweet Spot Traces its Plane Line through Impact, then the Club shaft automatically will be Tracing its own Club shaft Plane Line as well.



The golfer who swings feels the resting of the shaft at TOP and the hitter feels it at END. That rapturous feeling tells the golfer with skilled or educated hands that the countdown to release has begun and that only a smooth pivot and measured right forearm thrust via #3 PP will provide the hands the chance to direct the club shaft as it wishes to move through the ball down, out and forward along the inclined plane. The lag pressure never quits. The lag is the rail of light. The lag is the golf stroke.

The problem is that the lag is invisible and is felt on # 3 PP most directly. But I can show it to you, or rather Moe Norman could and did: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WGAaO0xWd98


The Player's solution to all this "drawing board" stuff is simply to return to his original primary concern; namely, the Hands and their Club head Lag, Flat Left Wrist and Plane Line (6-G-0). Then, driving the Hands -- not the club! -- toward the Ball (Delivery Path 10-23-0), and using the #3 Lag Pressure Point Tracing to seek out the Delivery Line (per 6-C-2-A) -- not the Ball! -- will result in the joy that is hearing the crack!!of solid Impact, feeling that flush contactradiate -- as Hogan described it, "up the Shaft, through your Hands,and into your heart" -- and seeing the Ball streak forthe Flag! .

When that happens, you will not be thinking about Plane Lines. "

The sweet spot is real, but only in motion. You must do it to see it.

The golfer takes a hold of the club as Moses took a hold of his shaft to release the snake of YHWH which would consume the smaller vipers of Pharaoh's magicians. His staff was firm and strong yet pulsating with life and power. Moses simply had to thrust his staff out,forward and down, to see the power and precision of YHWH's plan. He had to do it to see it. Faith and works, not static but dynamic.

The golfer can only really monitor # 3 PP as it contacts the shaft. The golfer must balance the Pivot with RF thrust to feel the living and heavy accelerating sweet spot. The desire to drive that sweet spot determines how all zones will react.


How did I get here? I have played almost daily in the last four weeks, ugh. I was thinking about Daryl's diagram of his effort in golfing vs mine and I got exhausted! After my mediocre performance, I went to the driving range.

I started swinging. I looked over and over. Just a little Pivot aligned my vertically cocked left wrist. So simple and easy. So powerful! Then, remembering Yoda's vertically un-cocking left wrist and how the little flywheel of the shoulder sent the club screaming into the ground, I tilted ever so slightly. The ball lept off the clubs, with precision and some power. Not enough, though.

What was missing? How could I increase the pressure on # 2 PP and # 4 PP? SLOW DOWN. FEEL THE PRESSURE BUILD. SUSTAIN THE LAG, SUSTAIN, THE LAG, SUSTAIN THE LAG!! As I felt # 4 PP load, so did # 2 and # 3. I had to move to SUSTAIN THE LAG!!!!!!!

I moved slowly and then there was only one feeling. I felt the sweet spot on # 3 PP on the shaft and it trembled for me as I moved slowly. ( I could smell her perfume... sorry :laughing1 )

Still not enough power. I thought of the Swinger's rope pull. Pivot, # 4 PP and # 2, and # 3 PP was all I knew! I felt my balance moving downhill to my shorter leg, and pulling the sweet spot (# 3 PP) faster! Glancing blow of the driver! I had the sweet spot under control and I lost it! I had to maintain the lag, sustain it! A little turn back to feel the sweet spot load and a little tilt of the Pivot to activate # 3 PP and the right elbow said, HELLO, WOULD YOU LIKE SOME HELP? :hello: :D :D


Back-swing, load # 2 and # 4 PP, down-swing, # 3 PP and back elbow with a gradual push, not the frantic thrusting I had played with before! My old Adams Redline driver flew the 250 yard marker on its way to the woods behind with a deafening, deep "thunk!" Again! Again! Again! Again! Again! Again! I had stopped looking at the ball and simply felt the sweet spot load on # 4, # 2, and # 3 PP and then pushed the aft part of the shaft at the speed of the Pivot. Slow, fast, faster.."THUNK!"

I could do it all night. Would I be able to hit with it? Slow RFT, Pivot, hello sweet-spot lag :occasion: :sunny: Pivot as fast as I could while maintaining # 3 PP against the aft part of the shaft! a little Extensor Action helped me feel the sweet spot more clearly and "Thunk"


No wonder the pros move so smoothly and with such balance! Thanks, guys!

Patrick

Very good to hear that corners can be turned so quickly. My life experience says physical actions improve more like step functions than linear equations.

Of course, as pointed out, it is not static -- it ebbs and flows, good and not so good (even within a round often times).

For me, I'm very much looking forward to having a basic stroke pattern so I can play golf like I played other sports -- more in the moment, more strategy/next move thinking, focusing on scoring versus good contact/good shots.

My goals are to have fun the rest of this year working on the stroke and doing work in the basement over the winter. Next season is about becoming a golfer versus just ball striking.

BTW, thank you, Lynn, for this forum. It has been and continues to be an incredible benefit for me and I'm sure others like me who are looking for a simple, repeatable swing so we can become players!

I know we're getting way off the plane of this thread , so to speak, but City since you are feeling the magic of "sustaining the lag":

Have you tried it whilst putting?

If lag is the secret to golf , it must apply there too right? Crenshaw was the ultimate at this I think. You could see it in his stroke. Remember though , its Lag Pressure. Lag Pressure. Lag PRESSURE. Its not an angle or anything, you cant measure it in degrees , its pounds pre square inch on the #3 which you seek to sustain. The more distance you need to negotiate, the more Lag Pressure you dial in and then sustain. It goes nicely with Tracing when putting I find.

Throwaway is devastating to your putting but less obvious or apparent than elsewhere in your game. But when you sustain the lag , the ball rolls like a field mouse trying to find its hole. Like the "ball had eye's" as they say.

More sweetness!
 

I have felt the sweet spot before, of course, and I've played with it on the range, but I never had the courage to slam the sweet spot into the ground.

After reading your posts about keeping pressure on the shaft, and hitting, I decided "I'll never be hungry again!" I went to the range and chipped looking for the sweetspot. It showed in the basic motion in hitting then swinging. I realized I could pivot and feel it, pull the shoulder and feel it, push my right hip and feel it and drive my elbow and feel itl I could hit half shots and full shots and balance with feeling the sweetspot was crucial.

I stopped throwing the club at the ball and started hitting it with the sweetspot and knew I would hit it well, and I did. I realized that the driver has to get a special effort from me to drive the sweet spot through the ball to the plane line below the plane.

If I'm feeling the sweetspot, the club is on plane. I forget about mechanics and try to simply carry the l lag through impact.

It was great. I have to maintain my balance all the way through to the underground plane line! It was wierd too, so see that a smaller swing could be as powerful as a big one as long as the sweet spot was used.

Thanks guys.

Cool, Patrick.
Does it seem like you are barely moving the shaft? Swing speed seems to be of little importance as long as you just drive the structure through the ball. I'm getting distance I only dreamed of.

Yes, it is extra-terrestrial, like the force or "Schwartz!"
 

When you say "structure" are you talking about the sweet spot and the power package which carries it?

Good mechanics help us experience the feeling of the sweet spot but then the sweet spot creates its own mechanics demanding certain bio-mechanical structures.

I think that's why Bobby Jones swung so smoothly. It gave him his greatest feel of the sweet spot. Tonight was interesting for me because I had tried both swinging and hitting to carry the sweet spot but had the most success with a very short back hip turn and then pushing the sweet spot with my slowly returning back hip completely down through the ball. It's amazing how the ball reacts when you stay balanced and dire the sweet spot through the ball! The ball becomes like butter or non-existent. It becomes a sub-atomic game of billiards.

It's amazing. Remember when I said I was simply trying to support the on-plane sweet spot it it stressed out all different parts of my body but the ball was jumping? This was that!

PMB

I have experienced this, OB.
 

I was using my Bullseye putter and thought it was due to hitting it with topspin but I lost it after five holes that day and couldn't capture it again. Now I know that it was the club resting against my # 3 PP.

One problem. I can't use EA with my # 3 PP. I can't feel the spot and pull the handle at the same time. Suggestions?


YBGF

That seems like a problem. I use EA with Putting but I do it by increasing the #3 PP and using that for engaging EA. I feel I only need to identify the "point" of pressure and guide the stroke with that. I started way back when by applying the standard EA procedure but I also couldn't feel the #3 PP either.

Sometimes, it feels like the shaft flexes.
 

Sometimes it feels the flex is several minutes after the ball has left! It is sooooo cool!



YBGF

It is just the best, isn't it?
Now your task is to continue putting with the blade putter and concentrate on some EA and pp#3. It is frighteningly accurate. I miss putts, but I nearly always Roll it on the line I want it to Roll.
Oh, yeah, think Roll, not Hit. Roll the ball. That awful Star Ship Enterprise putter of yours won't allow you to Roll the ball.
I think we have about 2 weeks of golf left here if we are lucky. C'mon over.

I've had some good ball striking this week -- breakthroughs, really. (Along with a couple of "what the heck was that" fat shots when I didn't start with that little hip slide and just pretty much stuck the club in the ground 2 inches behind the ball...)

First, if you don't have them -- get the DVD's!

Second, as said elsewhere, there is so much more "out" and "down" than we believe. I find that I can backslide to a sweepers style strike and then, the inevitable "flip"...bad stuff.

Third, I was standing a little too far from the ball -- an inch or so closer eliminated the toe hits and brought on that much sought after Nirvana -- compression. Like a half club to full club longer. It also eliminated the thin hits and no divots I was seeing.

Finally, the underhand pitch/tracing feeling has helped me be able to hit both irons and driver -- something I've struggled with all summer. If one was working, the other wasn't. Now, I can hit both (and usually a ton).

Thank you Yoda and everyone here on the forums. :salut:

I'm looking forward to drills when I can't play this winter so I can really see myself finally rebuilding my swing. It's been interesting playing while trying to adopt what I'm learning -- some nights I show such progress then other nights (or on the next hole), some old flaw or other has crept back in...