Was Homer the first to reverse the old ball flight laws?

Skipper . . . don't run him off . . . we're havin' fun . . . good chance he is one of the poor souls that tilts backwards and rolls the face to the ground . . . there is hope . . . the gift is there . . . just need an extended hand.

My posts are infantile compared to who? 12 piece. Post 12 was combative that's a stretch, What agenda? My dad can lick your dad? Paranoid you are...lol

Man . . . you really gotta call me and apologize now . . first d*ck . . and now infantile . . . we got linoleum anyhow . . . can't afford tile.

Again . . . since we know that you knew that we know that that you knew that the d-plane wasn't in the book . . . what is it that you'd like to discuss?

And tell Mike if he needs a hook up on tile . . . call me . . . but spell my name right . . . . it's Carl Sagan.

Campfire Girls Minus One
 

Buh bye, footwedge.

Alas . . .

"We hardly knew ye."

But then, we did.

Too bad.

PS Love your 'handle'. An apt characterization, no doubt.

:salut:

Let him hangout . . . the whole crew is over here lurking . . .

99 Virgins and a River of Honey
 

Martrydom is a wonderful thing.

:)

If you were a doctor of a science that you proclaim to be junk, would you continue to advertise yourself as a doctor of that science? Would that make you a quack? Hey Britney, gotta feel bad for those guys, must be very confusing...
:golf:
Kevin

Hey Dick! I know what you are doing - coming on as your alter ego, scarecrow - "FootWedge" and then trying to trash me in the process - sneaky! :confused1 Now hear this - I know what you are doing and I will bury you! I HAVE HAD IT!! Since it is obvious to me now that that little girl BAMBAM won't do anything about you - I will! O.B. call me - get in the car, pick me up in Maine on our way to North Carolina! Other members that would like to join us - please PM me.

Update
 

Dear Forum Members,
My PM box has crashed due a massive influx of PM's - I'll post back up when we have the problem solved so that you may send me a PM. Thanks for your patience!

The answer to that question would be YES.

The need for tolerance
 

"Measurements given herein are for the golf course rather than the laboratory, but the laboratory will show them well within acceptable tolerances."

Real world stuff? That's no fun, I'm pretty sure I can prove my dad's smarter than your dad in the laboratory...

Is it science or is it art? Homer got it, it's a blend of both...

Kevin

The "D" Plane is a Term "coined" by T.P. Jorgensen. I don't know if Jorgensen had read the work of Homer Kelley, but Publishing Dates prove that Homer Kelley advanced the science behind the Ball Flight Laws that Golfers use today.

Unfortunately, the "D Plane" theory isn't enough to explain all "Ball Behavior" because it doesn't account for all of the forces acting on the Ball while Homer Kelley's theories supply sufficient information to know that a combination of many forces are actively involved in Ball Behavior.

Lets compare the 'D Plane' theory of "The Physics of Golf" - written in 1999 to "The Golfing Machine" - first published 30 years earlier in 1969.

"The Golfing Machine"



In "Red" in the above quote is the "D-Plane" phenomena.



All though these TWO quotes from "The Golfing Machine" explain the Science of "Ball Flight" used today, Homer Kelley did not "coin" the Term "D Plane". There is no significance to "coining a term" for this phenomena because the phenomena is variable. Although for Homer Kelley, the phenomena was a matter of fact that couldn't be denied, he would have named dozens of "D Planes" depending on which Force Vector combination's caused which "Ball Flight" effects.

However, Homer Kelley, additionally provided us with the means of Manipulating the "D Plane" with 10-5-0 through 10-5-E.

The problem with the "D Plane" theory as you will see below, is that it doesn't account for all of the Force Vectors applied to a Golf Ball which include but are not limited to "Layback" (Leakage), "Angle of Attack" (Increased Spin"), and the very important "Kick" from the Ball returning to normal after Impact Deformation.

With a Clubface correctly oriented on its vertical Plane at Separation and a Clubhead Path oriented Left of the Target Line (Rotated Plane Line), a Pull will result. If the same geometry above occurred with the Face "Layed Back" at Separation, then a Fade would result because Impact Vector Forces would cause the Axis of the spin producing Lift to rotate to the right.

1-L, 16-20
16. The Plane Line controls the Clubhead Line-Of-Flight. Clubface alignment controls the Ball Line-Of-Flight.
17. The Clubface needs to be square to the Line-Of-Flight only at Point-of-Separation.
18. Changing the Plane Angle has no effect on the Plane Line.
19. Stance Line, Plane Line and Flight Line are normally parallel.
20. For any given Line of Compression (through the ball) every Machine must produce identical Impact Alignments.




"D Plane" Theory

The "Theory" is explained below along with an illustration showing that "Lift" produced by the spinning Ball will be at a right angle the Spin Axis. That's what Homer Kelley said.

Pentagon and the Triad
 

My dad was actually a rocket scientist. I always enjoyed saying to him, "what, are you a rocket scientist or something?". He designed missles and torpedoes for the government. So there!

LOL

I'm still trying to figure out Daryl's post. I know it's right, because Daryl is way smarter than me... Damn, should have paid more attention in Junior High Physics, then I could at least pretend to be a scientist like the other guys...

Kevin

D-Plane boss, D-Plane
 

Daryl,

"What, are you a rocket scientist or something?".

Nah, but I did stay at a "Holiday Inn" and read TGM last night and naturally I was wearing my "Hooded" TGM "High Priest Robe". :laughing9

Hey man Im out front. See the shagg'n wagen with the Toronto Maple Leaf "the passion that unites us all" logo air brushed on the side. Thats me. Got a captain's chair with your name on it and a cooler full of Molson. Lets ride baby.......where the heck is north Carolina? Is it anywhere near South Carolina?

Moose Heads
 

Bucket,

Get ready. I just smelled them coming through Massachusetts. They are heading south on I-95.
Here is what they look like....

Homer Kelley in regard to the initial direction of the ball and the old ball flight rules;

"My contention is that it (the ball) leaves the clubFACE vertical to the leading edge and vertical to the clubface, close enough so that a guy out on the golf course doesn't have to have any kind of gadget for measuring degrees............
This book is not written with those people in mind, its written for the guy standing there who can set the ball up and be reasonably sure its going to separate there in that manner."

I had to come back as I read we attacked somebody and left them for dead. Can't find any bodies and don't see anybody hurt... Oh well, I'm sure CSI will be here soon... :)

Kevin

Still don't see where HK explained the need to alter setup based on the low point and true path. Nor do I see where it is explained about higher lofts creating less angle to the spin axis.

I think Lynn is right though that HK probably would have embraced the D-Plane. He just didn't think of it at the time and it seems he accounted for the fact that there would be more technology and more interpretations that make for clearer descriptions.

Maybe lucky for us. I think Homer Kelley would have had so much fun playing with the new technology he wouldn't have taken the time to write the book. The proverbial kid in the candy store. :)

Kevin

Low Point is not defined by the Distance between the Clubhead and Left Shoulder or any other part of your Body. If that were the case, then Low Point would be at Full Extension when Both Arms are straight and the Left Wrist is fully Uncocked. For an On-Plane Swing and Level Left Wrist at Impact, without Bobbing or Swaying, the Point at which the Clubhead begins leaving the ground will always be about opposite your Left Shoulder. Hence - "Low Point".

Higher lofted clubs produce less side spin because the Downward line of compression is greater than the sideways line of Compression. Read 2-A.

What would Homer think about the "D-Plane". In "Public" he would have said "oh, that silly thing". Then in "Private", he would have laughed his ass off. I give him credit for having an honest sense of humor. :)

My, look at that Ball Rolling up the Face of the Clubhead in Frame 2. Does anyone believe that the Ball "Rolling up the Face" of an inclined striker accounts for all of the Spin creating Force on a Golf Ball? No, I didn't think so. Only Jorgensen thought so, and he's a Physicist.

Bold by Daryl

9 Iron

More physics
 

I must now ask you to include the gear effect. Be modern in all elements.

HB

I'm not a scientist. I only stayed at a Holiday inn. But I can copy from Dave T. http://www.tutelman.com/golf/design/...p?ref=#grooves

Daryl, you gotta type Dr. David Tutelman... then you sound smarter like them other scientists who are now going to pee in your lucky charms...

Kevin

Who precisely are you arguing with here because I NEVER defined where low point was. But if you were to ask me I'd say it's wherever the lowest point is that the clubhead reaches along the arc. Seems to me you can still be pulling the club upward before full extension happens.

But D-Plane offers a DIFFERENT explination. Simply that the axis of the spin rotation will be flatter since the loft angles the tragectory more upwards. D-plane deals with this in geometrical terms that accurately describe what we see.

You sure seem to like putting words in his mouth. Again, I like Lynn's response better. He would have probably expanded on the D-Plan had he known about it instead of pooh poohing it just cause it wasn't his. That is unless you think HK was a real arrogant SOB.

Then you're naive. When HK examined "In Search of the Perfect Swing", and corrected their many errors, it didn't stop them from publishing the book as written and HK certainly didn't update the Golfing Machine because he found new knowledge. He didn't find new knowledge and I doubt he would find any in "The Physics of Golf" that would cause him to challenge or change his thinking. I mean, if I'm not impressed, what ever would make you think that Homer Kelley would be? I would be much more easily impressed than Homer Kelley.

I wonder what happened to the Hundreds of Golf books in Homer Kelley's library?

You have the opportunity to read both "The Golfing Machine" and "The Physics of Golf" as I have many times. No one on this website or any other has taught me about the "D Plane". I learned by making the effort to buy the book, read it and understand it. The same goes for 2-A and 2-B in the Golfing Machine. They're not exactly the Hot Topics on LBG.com or any other Website for that matter.

This isn't about TGM vs. D-Plane. This is about being spoon-fed the "talking points" without doing the homework yourself. TGM'ers are always accused of putting "Belief" before "Fact". This may be true for many TGM followers at least until they understand the material. Don't be so naive to think that the "D-Plane" is any different.

I spent some time writing my post comparing TGM and the "D-Plane". I used direct information and diagrams from both books to substantiate my claims. You should do the same. I have yet to see, a single, solitary reference to any material published in "The Physics of Golf". All I hear is commentary and TGM bashing.

If you don't understand the material, then fine, this is the place to learn. But if all you want is an excuse not to have to work very hard and long to understand the Golfing Machine, without saying as much, by replacing it with oversimplified science for much less effort, then get in line with 99% of the Golfing world at the back of the bus.

But if its "Sweet Talk" you want, then "I'm sure Homer Kelley would find "The Physics of Golf" interesting and challenging and he and Theodore would probably have become great friends and work together on many projects." :)

Let me simplify what I'm trying to say. Jorgensen "discovered" that about 85% of the initial direction of a struck Golf Ball is directly related to the direction the Clubface is pointing. He didn't invent, he discovered. So did Homer Kelley. Jorgenson also discovered that a Tilted Spin Axis will cause the Ball to curve one way or another. So did Homer Kelley. Jorgensen discovered that the amount of divergence of Clubface Alignment and Clubhead Path caused the Spin Axis to tilt in a predictable way. So did Homer Kelley. Jorgensen "Coined" this phenomena the "D-Plane". Homer Kelley called the Phenomena a Fade, Draw, Pull, Push, Pull Hook, Hook, Slice, etc., you get my meaning. But, there's much more to it than that. You'll find all the answers in The Golfing Machine.

So you're saying Lynn is wrong then and Homer wouldn't have been open to the new technology and information. Got it, message received.

You tell me.

And I suppose you would argue Trackman is a total waste then. All the data that's been accumulated over the years of it's operation and development provide plenty of proof that the D-Plane is a reliable ball flight diagnosis.

The fact is here that you ARE putting belief before fact. D-Plane explains the geometry of impact and resultant ball flight. Why this excellent explanation that has been tested repeatedly is viewed so negatively by you is really quite alarming.

I don't believe everything I read either. Not even what's in TGM.

WHERE do you see me "bashing" TGM? Hmmm? Where? For chrissake I'm agreeing with Lynn. Ipso facto you are disagreeing with him. You don't think Homer would have had any room for the D-Plane explanation. Why do I need to cite anything to agree with something someone else said? That is certainly a high requirement for the ability of one to post here.

Seriously man, you are so far off from anything I've said it's unbelievable. Who the heck are you responding to? I don't think it's me.

Yet the extrapolation of the information has been proven incorrect. In to out path with a square face at separation is supposed to cause a straight shot according to what has been said regarding TGM alignment. However the data accumulated with these conditions shows a hook. Why?

Man, I go to AC for one night and you guys start a war without me!
 

Look, I have to know if someone got that guy's phone number. I'm out here at school in West Philly, It's 10 pm and the school bus is warmed up with about 50 respondents for our "First Tee" program. We only have 10 golf clubs but lots of my peeps have on real bulky hoodies! :)

Everybody's ready to find that dude and deliver a little Basic, Acquired, and Total motion to that fella, if you feel me on this! :)

Daryl, what color are the robes? Silk? My team wants to know if you can hook us up? 'SUP Unc!? Our school colors are blue and white. We need a lot of 2x and 3x sizes. I told the kids that we needed to protect "Uncle Daryl" from mean "D-Plane" people. One of the boys, Abdullah Muhammed (6-8", 420 lbs, 3rd grade) said "Mr. B.....we need to explain tho the evil "D-men" that Islam is a force of peace in the world, and that the minor prophet HK, and his priest Uncle Daryl, plane blessings surround them, must never be dissed!"

Could you guys hurry up? We only have the bus 'till tomorrow and then I need new insurance and permission slips. I told the district we were headed to Georgia since lots of my peeps have kin down there. They were mad that the evil "D-men" insulted Uncle 12 Piece, Uncle Yoda, and Uncle OB, too! They felt that chicken remark was way off the hook. :)

YBGF

If I had a dime for every time someone said that TGM is wrong, I'd be $$$$. If I had a dime for every time someone presented evidence that TGM was wrong, I couldn't by a 10 cent cup of coffee.

I'm so tired of people that talk about their claims rather than providing information to support their claim.

Ringer, support your claims with analysis and not propaganda. I assume you can do that, right? Otherwise, what's the point of this dialogue?

Maybe this isn't a dialogue but a "baiting game" you've been trained to play? Either give me something substantial that explains your claim that Homer was wrong or that Jorgensen was correct or won't respond again.

Others have already stopped. I may as well too.

Part of 1-L-16 is wrong.

To quote "Clubface alignment controls the Ball Line-of-Flight."

Clubface contact location controls Ball Line-of-Flight.

What's really funny to me is that you actually believe I'm attacking TGM or Homer. I said nothing of the sort.

Homer went on to describe the importance of knowing where the low point was (2-J-2) but I don't know where he explained to line up differently to compensate for this... do you? That's one question I posed but NEVER got an answer for. Instead you just came after me asking for proof of something.. lord knows what you're even wanting proof of.

The other thing I asked for is where Homer explained why higher lofted clubs result in less curvature. The D-Plane explains this quite easily as I did in my video, but 2-A makes no such conclusions as you suggested it did.

Finally, what "claims" am I making? What statement have I made that needs backing up? I'm simply saying that the D-Plane is an explanation of the geometry involved during impact that Homer didn't expand upon himself. Though he might have if he had access to the technology. You somehow interpreted this as some sort of threat on your livelihood apparently because you're lashing out like a wild dog at me. All I want is the truth.

Lashing out like a wild dog? You guys are all delusional.

All you want is the truth? All you guys do nothing but twist other peoples words to make them look bad so you win debates. Winning debates has nothing to do with finding the truth.

Nobody's buying what you are selling.

Kevin

Amazing..?
 

I do believe HK had a complete understanding of the alignments that would dynamically reproduce the positions recently explained by "D" plane “graphics”. Alignments are vastly superior to position. Reading- 7-2 then 2-j-3 then 2 then 1 a little 2-E and throw in a dabble of 6-E and one can start to perform ball flight control. After all is said, How do you get it into the computer (chapter 14)? A vector diagram or a feel? That is the value of TGM. With understanding TGM becomes a vastly superior tool for both instruction and instructed.


Just my opinion

"De Joisey" Bear

What's My Line?
 

Regarding "line up differently" . . .

I think I read elsewhere in your posts that you mean lining up more Open with the higher lofted clubs and more closed with the lower lofted ones. Is that right? Are you referring to the Stance Line in relation to the Plane Line? If not, then what? Please explain what you mean, and ideally, why it is necessary.

Thanks!

:salut:

Boss . . . what he is trying to say is . . . if the ball is taken beyond low point club is traveling back up and in and as a result you should aim right to account for those plane/orbit conditions . . .assuming you are hitting a straight shot . . . vicey vercy for back of low point . . .

7-2 is likely where the d-plane folks would take issue with the Machine I'd say.