Maybe some of us are talking about the cf present in the pivot Zone 1 ( necessary for cf throw off of the left arm) while some others are talking about the cf at the Primary Lever Zone 2. CF being present in different zones. A classic 3 B Hitter executing Acquired Motion with Pivot Motion only as opposed to Pivot Work (active pulling) would have little or zero Zone 1 cf, but still have cf in his primary lever zone 2 the arms. cf the force that is . He won't use it as a release trigger.

I dunno. Only Homer could get my head hurting like this. Everything is turning , spinning , throwing out , I'm gonna throw up pretty soon.

Kiss
 

Let's keep it simple;
1-L - 9. Regardless of how the Lever Assembly is driven, it moves in a circle.

HB

If there is angular motion there is CF, but its effect on release are zeroed by the hitter. See: 6-F-0

Bumpy

Not zeroed, Bumpy.

It is getting "help" by the driveout. Or the driveout is getting help from CF. They help each other.

OK, zeroed might be the wrong word, not sure help is correct either.


Per 6-F-0 ".....totally annuling and stifling any intrusion by CF".

If there is no intrusion, I'm going to regard its effect on the "overtaking rate" as PASSIVE.

If there was any "helping" going on I would be pulling and pushing at the same time.


Bumpy


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--------------:hello2: :hello2: :hello: :hello2: :hello: :hello: :hello:

There AIN'T NO C.F. IN TRUE HITTING END OF STORY HOMER WROTE THE BOOK THE END GO SPEND Forty YEARS WORTH OF RESEARCH AND FELT BACK TO ME ALL YOU PIONEER'S IF GOLF THEOREM

What do you want who to do?
 

Could U be a little more specific?

hb

So the topic has now morphed into "Circles in Hitting" ??? :laughing9

the answer is YES
 

I am providing a direct quote:

Chapter #1, Section L -The Machine Concept #9 of the 21 machine requirements.

OR
Yes. from the dynamics of circlular motin/angular motion we get cf


HB

The original poster's topic was "CF in Hitting". The only reasonable interpretation of that is "The use of CF in Hitting", not the existential presence of CF. Some are saying that because the left arm moves in a circle, there is CF, and most of those are saying that it's preempted by muscle, but no one has come right out and said that CF manifests itself in increased club head power over and above that from the right triceps. And they'd better not, because that is tantamount to saying that Hitting has a #4 PA, and therefore 12-1-0, Component 4 - Triple barrel(1/2/3) is incorrect.

Does that cf add power over and above that from the right triceps in Hitting?

Driveout is providing the motion, which you claim is generating CF, which you then claim "helps" Driveout??? Sounds like the basis for a perpetual motion machine!

Throwout is preempted by Driveout. If CF were present in releasing #3, then the left arm would be the delivery mechanism, forcing #4 to be a PA in Hitting. But per 12-1-0, Hitting is Triple Barrel(1/2/3) not 4-barrel(1/2/3/4).

The oil companies wouldn't allow that mj that's why magnetic engines haven't caught on

Brilliant argument. Stating your perception then following that with Homer is right does not lend credibility by association. I think everybody agrees Homer is right. If your not capable of developing a valid argument you're just noise.

Bumpy

The problem here again is one of definition. Golfers talking to golfers with science degrees. Homers unique definition of the word mixed in.

I get the feeling no one is wrong above its just a matter of interpretation.

There's no cf (in the pivot power sense of the word ) for Drive Loading but there is cf present in the primary lever . Then there's Hitting with Pivot Power....

CF never adds power. Not even in golf.

OB - I did not mean to get everyone to a "How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?" question. The question, in my mind, was clear but after all the comments it is not.

One can putt with a little push stroke. As more power is needed #3 and #2 and pivot is increased.
There are proportions, I was looking for others ideas.

Thats all. how do U handle the balance?

HB

Not even if it uncocks the left wrist in a Swing??? :shock:

I would agree in that it does no work. But it does change the energy vector. Explaining why that is important to golf is a place we do not want to go I would guess?
Maybe because very few golfers can run 100 mph? Or golf carts go that fast.
Wow, a 100+ mph golf cart. Just put an sweet spot on the front bumper, tee it high and steer (normaly bad-good here). Tough to shape shots though.


hb

OK then, does that cf add club head speed over and above that provided by the right triceps in Hitting?

In push putting, only #1 is used, so if you need more power, you push harder. I've never seen a putting stroke which uses #2 or #3, both of which should be zeroed out.

The earth isn't flat even though Homer Kelley omitted to clearly state that it is round. But you and MizunoJoe use flat-earth-arguments over and over, and attribute them to HK and TGM.

There are a lot of people in golf who understand enough physics to see that your "there ain't no CF in true hitting..." statement above is pure nonsense. Absurd claims such as these give TGM a bad reputation.

I think you just invented the concept of O.L.F. Only Linear Force. Nice touch to eliminate the geometry of the circle.

:salut:

Assuming these are not "flat-earth" questions, and you know enough physics to answer, does CF add club head speed over and above that provided by the right triceps in Hitting? If so, how?

I'd need to know the angle of inclination of the pin head and what sort of footwear the angels are wearing. Rubber soles or leather? The other dimensions I have already from one of Daryl's posts.

Uh what exactly do you want to know? How when Hitting you introduce the various accumulators and more acceleration (lag pressure) through the bag?

G.O.L.F: Geometrical Oriented Linear Force.

Centripetal Force creates the geometry of the circle, Linear Force produces the speed.

Centripetal plus Centrifugal Force produces or assists in the release.

Centrifugal Force - that's the CF in TGM: Club head inertia resisting being moved in a circle. I don't have the book with me, but I think this is close. You can look up the definition.... Anyway, CF doesn't produce any swing speed. It isn't even applied on the club head. It is applied on the golfer from the club head.

Before the release, things are moving on a somewhat curved pattern already. Which also means that there is a CF/CF pair alive. You have an inert club head that is "trying" to move straight ahead and pulling and pushing anything that changes it's speed or direction, including the club shaft and the hands holding the shaft. Then you have a Centripetal Force that pulls inward (towards the swing center), adding a curve to the club head travel. Caught in the middle you have a cocked left wrist. The two forces pulling from each side of the hands will cause or contribute to uncocking of the right wrist and release.

The release will effectively increase the swing radius. The club will not pick up speed just because of this swing radius extension. Instead the handle will slow down dramatically unless......

.... unless the golfer resists the hands from slowing down. And in a good golf stroke, the golfer will resist how much CF slows down the hands - by producing a very strong linear force during the release interval. And that's what gives the added swing speed. Always linear force. And only linear force. The only thing that produces swing speed. It's on the front page.

The release works like a gear shift. Hands will move slower, yet the linear force applied is greater, adding leverage to the hitter's driving right arm and the pivot via left arm & extensior action.

(Red by Daryl)

I don't want to Thread-Jack but this is disturbing. Although Release will slow the Hands, the "Pulley" analogy explains the method by which Golfers can and do compensate.

No Linear Force in Hitting or Swinging. No need to manipulate or steer. The Ball can respond to an Angular Force as though it were struck by a Linear Force.

Also, and one small point. ..... If COAM exists with both Swingers and Hitters, doesn't that prove CF exists with both Swingers and Hitters?

We do need some caution in analysis. Lag- extends to the last lagging component-the hands are in that chain- up through the power-package and into the pivot.

hb

Just grip and rip it ..... sheeez! You tgm guys are nuts.

Agree about "angular force" as far as impact is concerned. (It's an odd term though) But my response was in the context of how swing speed is produced during the release. It is linear force or some force that contains or leads to linear force, that produces swing speed. The physics' equivalent to TGM's linear force would be tangential force, btw. The force (components) that coincides 100% with the direction of the club head motion.

Steering and manipulation is not required to produce linear force.

COAM - I don't want to go there today. IT's a beast! PM me if you want a long version about COAM in golf. I have a link I can dig up.

Here is some real disturbance,

(Berndt in blue)

"CF doesn't produce any swing speed... there is a CF/CF pair alive... Caught in the middle you have a cocked left wrist... The two forces pulling from each side of the hands will cause or contribute to uncocking of the right(sic) wrist and release."

So he says CF doesn't produce any swing speed, but does cause the wrist to uncock, which does produce swing speed! :confused1

Even more disturbing is the fact that he ignored my question about Hitting and gave a presentation on Swinging. :(

Finally, since CF is preempted by muscle in Hitting, then I personally consider it not only unused, but nonexistent as well.

LOL,

At Impact, the Left Wrist is Vertical, so the Left wrist is moving the Clubhead "Straight Up and Down"? Right? And how is that a forward motion?

"Magic of the Right Forearm": as CF causes the Left Arm to Blast off the Chest into it's own Orbit, the Right Arm begins Straightening. The Uncocking Left wrist merely accommodates/synchronizes Changes in the Triangle Geometry. HK Calls the #2 Accumulator "Velocity" because the Clubhead is overtaking. But it's not overtaking the Right Forearm Wedge (the right wrist remains Level and Bent) and it has no effect or change regarding "Rhythm" (RPM).

When Uncocking the Left Wrist causes Clubhead forward motion, then a bent left wrist at impact is inevitable.

Furthermore, as the Left Wrist Rolls past Low-Point, the Left Wrist continues to Uncock (The Left Wrist is Level at Impact) and is therefore going "Backwards" (Direction) until Full Extension.

No, it does not.

CF only has an outward reaction force directly in line with, and equal to, its CP originator.

To add force would require CF to be tangential to its CP originator - and it aint.

If you prefer to be confused I can't help you.
No I didn't. Read the last sentence one more time, please...
Then what causes the club head to move along a curved path from top to finish? Feel free to invent a new physics and explain to the masses.

Daryl,

I'm not sure whether I was the target here or not, but I don't see anything in there that I disagree with.

I was LOL because (DARYL RED) was followed with (Berndt in blue). I thought that was funny. Good, but funny.

I think that were all pretty much on the same page with Throwout and Driveout.

Anecdotal Analysis
 

Back to the original question.

A little anecdotal analysis;

I have seen data-can't locate it at the moment- that shows a golfer swinging with , left only, right only then both hands.

As I recall the results were approximately:
Left Only - 85 mph
Right only - 90 mph
Both (normal) - 105 mph

Conclusions;
Neither hand can produce the power both produces so swinging with either hand will be better if the other contributes.
The power is not a sum of the individual powers - if it was the result would be the (approx.) the square root of the sum of the squares of the p-ower from each hand.
[SqRoot of L squared + R squared] (would be about 124 mph in this example)

Even if there is only checkrein action by the left for hitting it is circular therefore cf exists.

It is very likely that either swinging-left hand or hitting/swinging Right hand , a substantial cf contribution is necessary.

Just me thinking.

HB

Because the left arm/club is attached to the left shoulder and the right triceps pushes on them - pretty basic grade school level physics. You don't seem to be able to grasp the fact that in Hitting, the left wrist is uncocked solely by the right triceps. :(

The uncocking right elbow directly and completely uncocks the left wrist. The shaft does not freewheel through the release interval. :study: