Originally Posted by nuke99 (Post 41670)

Mr. Mike.O. I am a fan of your posts. and i also want to join you fan club.



The Logic is there, but personally I would like to add what I had went through. Maybe for the benefit of people starting out or studying the book.


Justin did explain the exact logic to me. There are few fundamental hurdle.

No.1 like riding a bike, writing something, typing.. those are done subconsciously, but in order to become conscious , you have to have the correct "way" and trust them. Many abandon the "correct" way before trusting it and becoming subconscious. Thus We need incubator, coconut, and a good coach/mentor, or just stubbornly trust it . without it we lose faith and abandon the incubator.

No.2 The body , bending still need to be aligned a certain way in order to achieve a certain alignment. or follow a certain Model in TGM. Are your arm below the shoulder socket, too close to body? is your spine straight or bend down. etc.. A little of those would change Plane characteristics and loading behavior, angle of attack, visual equivalent. Not to mention we feel different Day to day .

No3 Experience and applications, There are tons of way to skin a cat. If your grip isn't correct for instance, or the flying wedge isn't correct for instance, We are not going to get the correct pressure points. Correct sequencing, different plane lines have slightly different sequence feel.

No.4 Overcoming perceptions.. 2j1,2,3, 3f5,6,7

Thats my difficulties , for someone who didn't understand much to begin with..

all pivot moves for all long shots. The difference is very little when i started to differentiate and to learn but gets more as my body understood more things. And it becomes clearer to me, that anything that involves accumulator 4 , the Pivot alignments and movement become even more important. Personally I believe, hand or pivot controlled? i believe in both. as we need zone 1 2 3 to work hand in hand.. proper alignment will yield the most consistent tendencies.

Cheers.

Originally Posted by Mike O (Post 41667)

Mike,
First you need to understand that I am not on my medication- as Bucket would point out. Second, It's sometimes difficult to put yourself in the context of the writer- so I may have completly mis-interpreted the context of your post. Finally, you gotta take all this with a grain of salt if that's the right saying (I'm great at messing those things up)- everyone's got their own opinion or perspective- not really life or death here.

That said, My point was if a beginning student read post#9- I would think that on the procedural/operational/ "what am I trying to do here" level - they would focus on the pivot if they read your post and the hands if they read my post.

That intention to move your hands and the club is the christmas tree that everything else hangs on. It is the canvass that the artist uses to paint the painting. It is the basic. Everything else is just details.

If that still is confusing then specifically it's the word "let" as in "Let the pivot move the hands" - that to "ME" and possibly "ME" only- implies that you place your attention/intention on the pivot. Now, since this thread started with a reference to Ben Doyle- then I would add from my perspective that his approach and communication of the stroke- with the focus on the pivot- is the same that I am implying was in your post. Just in case you are or have learned from him. That's just not my approach.

To close in regards to your post here.
6BMIKE: "In no way does my body transport the hands on an unfamiliar pathway." From my perspective it's not only the path that they take but the method that creates that path. You could pick up a ball off the ground or hit a baseball with the hands traveling on a nice plane but you could have created that motion in an un-coordinated method. In other words, you could have picked the ball off the ground by focusing on and having your intention to create a certain amount of knee flex and waist bend.

6BMIKE: "I can't see how I can be so wrong. If I am than I will not take up much of anyone's time and misguide them. It's best to just return to the pleasure of reading posts and learning what I can."

I'd say the rule of the road would be - if you have the interest - then certainly share your knowledge. Now, If you (Not Mike O.) decide that some aspect of your knowledge needs to be upgraded, changed, etc. then you make that change and move on- continuing to share what you know and look to listen and improve. So as long as a person's intention is not to misguide then share, share, share. There is always going to be disagreements, sometimes those disagreements don't get settled because one or both sides can't communicate or understand the issues involved enough to arrive at a common understanding.

I'm always available off-line if you want to get a complete elaboration of the entire context of this topic matter.

Otherwise, do what Bucket does and run me over- then back the truck up and run me over again for good measure- and then when you have confirmed death- go out and shoot a smooth 67.

Originally Posted by Mike O (Post 41671)

To not get ahead of myself and answer your basic question in regards to "what I am saying" in the section that you quoted

I'm saying that the starting point for my movement theory - is that all conscious movement is goal oriented. Not only in the golf movement but any movement.

The nature and goal of that movement determines what part of the body one would try to move. If the basic goal is to hit the ball with a club and the club is attached to your foot- then to perform that movement "correctly" on the widest level- your intention would be to move your foot - with it's corresponding awareness of the club - to hit the ball. If the club is attached to your head- then your intention would be to move your head and the corresponding awareness of the club - to hit the ball. Since, most of us grab the club with both hands - then moving the hands and the corresponding awareness of the club is the proper intention of the movement.

That's what I would consider the first principle. It's the outer most layer of the onion. There are many, many layers of knowledge, understanding, perspective, below it but none of it should contradict or nullify that fact.

To touch on your question "was I saying the intention of moving the hands causes the pivot to move first" and at the same time to highlight one of the issues that is important - the mechanical (what's happening) versus the intention (what you are trying to do).

In golf or any "back and through" athletic movement - On the basic level I would say that your intention would be to "take it back there and then bring it down here". However, in these ballistic movements the intention won't match the actual. Your intent to bring it back down- is just the first stage of slowing down the backswing. On the intention side- YOU ARE starting the downswing. On the mechanical side the arm and the club and shoulders etc. are still swinging back. In order for the hand to slow down, the arm must stop moving across the chest, in order for that to stop moving the muscles of the next joint must stop or brake the motion of the arms, etc. etc. down to the feet. So depending on numerous other factors- visually - you may or may not see the pivot components move or appear to move in the other direction before or as the hands begin to move in that direction.

Originally Posted by nuke99 (Post 41673)

Aye President,, ready when you are ! I am preparing all the torture tools. I am happy to report my latest addition, a hydraulic golf ball crusher. :naughty:
Now that's the kind of attitude we need on the team! Other members take note!:salut:


Amen!

----- And --------

The beauty of TGM, in my opinion is the involvement of the translation of Mechanic to feel.

For example, Our INTENTION is to direct the pressure point 3 Down the plane. whist maintaining it.
Just realize that 1) intention, 2) what's visually happening and 3) feel are all separate categories- a subtle but eventually important distinction for you. I would say that the visual goal say looking at someone through a video camera would be to have the clubshaft always maintain it's relationship to the plane line- whether the intention of #3 is to move down plane is a separate issue. Food for thought.

So how our elbow is placed, how the grip is taken , How our body support the move, our tempo , change in direction all have to move in the certain way so that this "amount" pressure point is directed down the plane in a certain direction.. WITHOUT LOOKING, plainly with that intention and FEEL alone , the rest automatically happens resulting in way superior execution and compression. example how it works, Flatter plane will have a pressure more below the shaft, steeper plane more above the shaft.. The feel ( and also visual equivalent also reproduces mechanic )thus REPRODUCE MECHANIC. and ready to be adjusted with different shots at hand . ..That one of the many true magic of TGM. besides flying wedge, extensor action etc....

However, what is often neglected in studying TGM is that , The alignment of setup( Pivot controlled, and non pivot controlled), Path of club will yield different ball flight tendencies. For example.. If we tilt more at address, there is tendency of Push or under plane...But again, that knowledge is highly dependent on the experience of the applicator , in the facet of application, model knowledge, bio mechanics. There are many ways to shape a shot, some simpler and some more difficult.

Sorry for this Overly passionate need to discuss this thought.... I felt compelled to discuss my love for TGM.

Originally Posted by 6bmike (Post 41677)

There is NO way that my pivot controls my hands. My hands built, train and designed the way it moves- time in and time out. My hands do not need to micro manage every pivot component. 9-1: "All motion is in a pre-selected sequence and spacing pf whatever Components are being employed. Emphatically, Hands are not educated until they control the pivot."

Since my hands trained the pivot to delievery the Power package per 7-12- a transport vehicle- it controls the vehicle. No way do I feel that my hands are victims of physics over-riding the alignments. My Hands monitor delivery lines and delivery paths. They are not renegades changing their educated alignments. They have a pivot they can trust.

My Hula Hula opens a lane for my hands. My hnads don't need to send a memo or knock on the door each time.

This is how I see it. I have always learned from your posts, MikeO. I can't say the same about others learning from mine. I don't want to be the guy that posts less than accurate information. I will be more careful.

Originally Posted by rvwink (Post 41604)

Ben Doyle talks about the essential transportation for a swingers lag being the pivot. Doesn't a hitter also need transportation for his lag?

Originally Posted by Mike O (Post 41672)

So it's a slow process and painted with great detail. So in a simple example and a poor one - Let's say that the letter A represents a Hand Controlled Pivot- you're really not going to fully understand A until you grasp B-Z, and the sounds they make, and the words that they compose, etc. etc. But all along the way - if you understand that A is a letter and that the fact that B is a letter doesn't nullify A from being a letter - then you eventually can get to where you want to be (no pun intended!)

Originally Posted by rvwink (Post 41816)

Actually after much more time spent practicing loading and sustaining my lag, I reject my prior post as being incorrect. I have now returned to my initial statement that began this thread with one change. I initially said "downswing waggle", and what I meant was "startdown waggle". Based on my current practice, it seems to me that the startdown waggle represents critical transportation aiding the delivery of a hitter's lag to lowpoint.

If someone disagrees with that statement, I hope they will share their comments?