I couldnt agree more Lynn.

As such, I dont like this ill will towards Trackman and all who have sailed on her. I understand the origins of this business, sad though it is, but its a disservice to Homer who was anything but closed minded.

The "other quarters" may have a Trackman but they didnt invent the thing and their conclusions are their own, be they correct or otherwise.

I loved that video Kev. Pure genius , so to speak. Homer could sup with those guys. He was such a man.

Interestingly , in these days of Homer bashing..... Homer's batting average is pretty good in comparison to many of the people presented in that video. Perhaps genius, innovation, comes with mistakes........I guess thats just the way it is. Some of Homers theories will not bare the test of time, no doubt. But his life's work , his contribution , his back upon which others will climb shall live for eternity. That I believe.

Homer acknowledged this inevitability. " Because of questions of all kinds...........

Dear O.B. Left,

When John visits LBG.com he's always asking for a pissing contest. Then he visits other sites to brag about his disruptive behavior. He's a dweeb. I've read Jorgensen's Book cover to cover and I've typed out Chapter 9 and did the Drawings myself too, just to be more involved in studying it. I just e-mailed you a PDF of Chapter 9 for your review. I started adding notes for a future report so don't get confused. I've also read everything including all of the newsletters on the Trackman Website and I've Printed the newsletters to read them in the ...... I've also viewed numerous video's over and over explaining D-Plane including the video's John recorded. So, I've done some homework. Do you think I'm "Closed Minded"? I wonder if John or any other combatant has studied TGM with as much effort as I've studied Trackman and the "D Plane"?

It's true; Homer was open minded, but he did expect people to prove their assertions with the same vigor, research and precision that he applied. And, Homer didn't raise no fools.

1. What theories are you referring to? Hmm?

2. He was referring to questions about TGM.

For example: Why do all Clubhead center of gravity orbits converge 6 inches behind Low-Point and 6 inches after Low-Point and does this have anything to do with why some players strike the ball more consistently when playing the Ball 6 inches behind Low Point? And, do they give anything up when doing so?

Here is another example: Why can only the Right Forearm Takeaway provide the correct Geometry to apply the Magic of the Right Forearm to Cock the Left Wrist?

I can write a dozen questions that would take a year or two to answer because of the research involved in finding the precise answer, and not because they're trick questions. There are thousands of questions.


Yoda: Give me a chance to add a few questions to your "Alignment Golf" Certificate Exam. Just Kidding :)

Lynn Blake Certified Instructor Addendum -- Extra Credit!
 

Okay, Daryl, but only if you give me the Answer Key!

:happy3:

Luv ya, man . . .

And your passion!

:salut:

O.B.

The problem as I see it, is that precious few people understand Homer Kelley's work. Those who understand completely it can see the genius, others simply disregard it.

I'm lucky to have found you guys who understand it. Sometimes it's too easy to be swayed by those who don't, but the real seekers always seem to return. Hopefully someday I'll get where you are, until then I'll keep studying with your help. :salut:

Kevin

As an aside...

Following the scientific existence of centrifugal force is like watching an Olympic Ping Pong match. I wonder what next weeks scientist will say... :-)

Homer Kelley's foundation is solid every day...

Kevin

Peer Review
 

Peer review.

HB

What does that mean?

Peer review is the evaluation of creative work or performance by other people in the same field in order to maintain or enhance the quality of the work or performance in that field.

whow :happy3:

My experience with the critics, who seem to have an emotional attachment to proving Mr. Kelley wrong, is when they get to the point of puting forth their own "system" it always sounds suspiciously like Homer's.

Write a compehensive book covering all the important scientific factors which are involved in the golf swing, and include a system(with illustrations) which complies with it and put it next to the yellow book.

Good luck with that!

I recall in the Audio of Homer's initial conversation with Yoda, he remarked that during the many years it took him to write the book at no time did he think he was more than 30 days from finishing. What's that tell ya?

:salut: :salut: :salut:

Yes , it might have even been "no more than one week" from finishing, if I my recollection serves.

Daryl I luv you too man, heck everybody does. Whats not to like?

But you're far too smart and good looking to cast yourself in the guard dog role. Homer doesnt need to be guarded actually. He's doing pretty good, pretty dog gone good.

I dont know what goes on in other forums and so I take people at face value around here. We need a discussion about Homer vs modern impact data. Those launch monitors are here to stay. Ive asked many (un biased) Trackman proficient pros for their opinion on things......so far there is no discrepancy between the two. One of those who graciously offered an opinion is a person besieged right here.

And IF Homer is wrong about something........we should be the ones to identify it first. Homer , over the course of his 7 editions altered his opinion on many things, elbow plane for instance. If, Homer wasnt afraid to change course why should we be? He wanted someone to take on the challenge of continuing his work. He said as much just prior to his Valentines day speech in Macon. He didnt want the work to stop upon his death.


The body of his work , his contribution which is still being unearthed today shall live for as long as people study this game. Whether he makes a mistake or not doesnt change this. Leonardo had some major goof ups. Thats the price of hanging your ass out on a limb maybe. Ive said it before but Ill say it again. Leonardo thought the male erection was a product of compressed air from within the body.........but that doesnt take the smile off of Mona Lisa. In fact...maybe thats what the smile is all about.

Visionaries , early adopters then followed by the masses but often with a trail of errors and then the next set of visionaries with their early adopters.....such is life and innovation. We're still waiting for the next golf visionary in my opinion....dont hold your breath, it could take a century or two. And Homer uncovered the geometry so I cant imagine what the next level is going to be......no idea.

Homers doin good man. Dont bolt the knowledge door shut. If you do Homer himself would want to get outa here before you do it. Me too for that matter.

I know where you're coming from...... I do. Dont let the agenda driven ," dont know what Homer really meant but Im gonna get him anyways" crowd, get you all riled up. I dont mind the fight, maybe its good for business even.......but we have to address modern impact data. Invite those dudes in , we need them. Either the entity lives , breaths and evolves or it ceases to live and breath and becomes artifact. This will happen eventually but its far , far too early for that. Homer's work should evolve for another few centuries or more before joining Leonardo's helicopter or Freud's complex or or or ..... beautiful things all. Homer's language may last as long as the game itself however.

I say this with great reverence for Homer and Lynn which I hope is understood.

Sonofagun!
 

I knew there was a reason I felt frisky after a Pepsi!!!!!!! :laughing9



ICT

O.B.

Well said. I don't have the time invested here or in the book that you do -- I'm just starting my journey -- but your views encourage me that this is the right journey to take.

Daryl,

Thank you for your many contributions to the site and the body of knowledge. I appreciate the time and effort you put into it.

John,

I hope you find a way to contribute here -- debate can be very healthy and drive all our understanding. I've viewed some of your videos and found them helpful in my own understanding. Hopefully, you'll want to gain some understanding here, too.

That says a lot Brian, thank you.

By the way when you do get the invite to join the inner secret sect watch out for Daryl , he's the big guy in the hood with the paddle in one hand and the taly on the other arm. Best to scoot past him as fast as you can crawl down the receiving line.

As in "thank you, sir, may I please have another!"? :)

Could be perhaps, but if Bucket or Mike O. were to say "I look forward to meeting you" it could mean something else entirely so its hard to say.

Ive said too much I have to go now.

Pinto finds a home...
 

Actually, I feel like Pinto having found the right, slightly off kilter fraternity for myself with TGM and LBG. You know, the guys who really know what's going on and who really know how to have fun, but who aren't mainstream.

Every time I try to have a TGM discussion with the "real" golf types, I feel like the rush party in Animal House --

Neidermeyer: Hi there, fellows. Meet Ken and Lonny.
Larry: Larry.
Neidermeyer: Ken, Lonny, l'd like you to meet Mohammet Jugdish, Sidney and Clayton. Grab a seat and make yourselves at home. Don't be shy about helping yourselves to punch and cookies...

Family Reunion
 

I'm workin' on each of these fine gentlemen. They may have been separated at birth -- environmental differences can be a wonderful thing! -- but both have a home here!

:golfcart2:

Another great thing about this place...all are welcome and ideas exchange freely (at least best I've seen on the Web).

I know that John and I were separated at birth, and I also know that I got the Brains and he got the Good Looks. :laughing9

Now, my small college did not have either fraternities or sororities.
 

Since I had attended an all-male Catholic hs, run by the Brothers of Holy Cross, I felt that selecting the all-male dorm, becoming President of the dorm and finally a Resident Advisor in the dorm (with the obligatory weekend keg tap), was the best I could do. :)


It was all I could do to promote and sustain a perpetual "Animal House" atmosphere. I do my best to spread that spirit in every serious endeavor. :golfcart:

ICT

Swing Vision Vs Tracman
 

I just watched Bobby Clampett's PGA Iowa Section video and he said that tracman showed him hitting up on his drive which he thought was dead wrong. He said that his CBS Swing Vision showed that his driver bottomed out 4 inches past impact.

Bobby said that Tracman's doppler operates at what equals 120 frames per second while Swing Vision operates at 1000.

It leads me to believe that maybe the tech of Tracman doesn't quite reach the level that reveals the whole truth.

Maybe Homer's science is right (or wrong) but we won't know until the technology improves.

Until then, Ill roll down that plane line the best that I can.

KB, right or wrong per "science" When you take it out of the room and away from the men in white coats... Homer Kelly's geometrically oriented linear force just flat out works, and is an extremely effective system for teaching. It works with flesh, blood, and the human mind. No doubt in my mind. I've seen what it has done for my students.

Feel as it relates to mechanics, machines and test tubes have none.

Bobby Clampett gets it.

Kevin

LineMan
 

You're on the right "track", KB. Pun intended!

:salut:

I can't see where Homer could possible have gone wrong with his dissection of impact and ball compression in TGM.

HK's discussion of impact was very theoeoretical. I think we need empirical data to sort out how much small variations in the impact alignments matters to the energy transfer.

In any case I think HK's explanations here tells a lot about the difference in quality of ball striking between great players and high handicappers.

It may appear that the difference between a draw (with as close to perfect impact as it gets) and a fade (where the club face rotates anti clock wise and the ball rotates clock wise) is negligible for a good ball striker. But I really have to flush a fade to get the typical draw distance, so I am not convinced that a fade goes as long as a draw as long as you negotiate the difference in adding loft when hitting a fade.

Rolling and compression.
 

BerntR does the empirical data you allude to exist? That'd be very interesting.

Horizontal Hinging , Hogans little baseball bat, A.J Bonars closing clubface do seem very real to me, well given decades of field trials. Horizontal Hinging given Homers Alignments being the most precise the others though brilliant are somewhat open to interpretation, respectfully.

By the way does anybody have a copy of the Nick Seitz interview with Ben Hogan , Gold Digest 1980's? Id love to read exactly how he described the rolling face, the little bat.

interview here
 

Hi OB - you can find the interview here:

http://advancedballstriking.com/foru...hp?f=25&t=1498

Keep warm till next season. 12C here in Pincher today but a bit breezie - gusting to 130.

Not that I know of. It seems like most of the material out there is Trackman based. Very precise on some parameters and pure deduction on others.

The clubface is not a little bat, which implies the face is rotating around the hosel. :nono:

Da Bat
 

Interesting, Mizuno Joe. Hadn't thought of it like that!

:salut:

Hi Yoda!

I think we'd be astonished by how many people think the clubface acts like the flippers on a pin-ball machine, when in fact, the toe chases the heel of the club around the sweetspot. :thumright

That makes sense MJ .....thanks. Effective though Rolling is, its not a little bat or flipper, lever deal per say. Its more about optimal contact. Keeping the point of contact between ball and face intact "as if welded together", no slips or wobbles except for that due to club face loft.

Would you agree? If so what does that do to Hogan's "little bat" or A.J.s "da bat" ? It'd still work but not for the reasons described I guess. Interesting.

the sweet spot on a bat
 

While we know that the club rolls along the sweet spot plane in golf, I am not aware of a Homer Kelley type inquirey for swinging a bat. It may be similar or it may not- but should we just dismiss it?

Hey KB how are ya ?

The little bat Im talking about is the face rolling like when you flick your wrister top cheese eh. So the "little bat" so to speak is Rolling, Horizontal Hinging etc. 2-C-1 as opposed to letting the puck just slide or roll off the end of your blade .....

Hey did you see Joe Kapp roll one off Angela's face the other day? 48 years in the making and total compression.

Hogan's study
 

Hi OB

Was watching the Cup and the golf - must have missed old Joe.

I thought you had been discussing Hogan's study of the great hitters of baseball. I was thinking about my glory days and how I used a hitting motion to line one over the short stop or 2nd baseman but used swinging to try to go deep. The ball would slice or hook at times and best of all, my buddies didn't fall to the ground laughing if I wiffed.

I figure if Mr. Hogan thought there was something to be learned from his study, that maybe it was something of value whether zone 1...2 or 3.

Keep warm

The physics of Objects rotating internal vs. external may explain.

I admit I'm not sure if this has been addressed but why would we assume the same club head speed at separation? because this is not possible... Regardless of your assumptions to try and eliminate the variables, The factors that will provide maximum compression are....



A. Hinge action, a closing only club face (dual horizontal) will provide maximum compression whereas as vertical and angled will produce lay back therefore diverting the force losing compression comparatively

B. In order to sustain the line of compression the original contact point of face and ball must remain in contact through the entire impact interval ( which relates to hinge action) this is possible only if the motion or arc is uniform, Therefore there must be a perfectly centered action.

C. Any deceleration of the club unrelated to the slowing effect of two objects colliding. Such as bending the left wrist ( law of the flail) or any other mechanical inefficiency regardless of whether the sweetspot was hit or not will change the compression and separation speed

In other words... Hit that ball on the sweet spot with maximum separation speed by executing a horizontal hinge with a flat left wrist and a centered action

Secondly........

Please explain your reasoning. Do you mean to say that it implies that it rotates around the hosel because the handle of the baseball bat is at one end? Why does attaching a shaft to a little bat imply the face is rotating around the hosel? Does the little bat not also have a longitudinal center attached to a shaft? of course it does... If the little bat is attached to the shaft through the sweet spot then it would still be rotating around the sweetspot it's just that the hosel and sweetspot are in line