Given a Flat Left Wrist and Bent Right Wrist, the Clubshaft can remain on 3 Planes simultaneously.

1. The Inclined Plane
2. the Plane of the Left Arm Flying Wedge
3. the Plane of the Right Wrist Bend.

Bernt and MikeO,

Yes the clubhead swivel can have a faster RPM than the left arm and shoulder, and it varies with release type and a bunch of other variables. Please reconcile that with rhythm for me.

I'm struggling with how to marry that with the way Daryl and I have interpreted rhythm.:confused1

Rhythm
 

6-B-3-0
"Accumulator #3 is Rhythm control" and later he writes "Do both (horizontal and angled hinging) alternately until you see the distinct difference in the Rhythm and clubhead travel of all three of the roll procedures".

The amount of accumulator #3 motion - influences the clubhead travel - the distinct and different clubhead travel as felt/perceived by the player for each of the three hinge actions is Rhythm.

Clubhead travel, Rhythm - relate to RPM - rotations per minute - the number of angular degrees in which a "thing" travels in relation to a 360 degree circle. Take a short shot where the player hits three shots - all with the same RPM of the hands - each one the player uses a different hinge action - that's one example of different clubhead travel, different rhythm, different RPM's for the clubshaft and the same RPM for the hands.

Mike,

I'm cool with that, Hinge Action is already comprehended in the sketches that Daryl made and our discussions in this thread.

In essence, each hinge action differs in the left arm flying wedge "closing rate" because of clubhead travel. Hence each have their own ryhthm. Even though the left arm and clubhead may turn at different RPM's throughout the swing, the rhythm (RPM) of the flying wedge is constant for the hinge action in use.

FYI you and Bucket are the only two members allowed to apologize when posting.
If I'm wrong I'll apologize and shave my head.

HK is referring to the Right Forearm Rolling about an Axis Perpendicular to the Horizontal, Vertical or Angled Plane. Those are the available "roll procedures". That ensures that while the Clubface is closing per the Pivot or Orbiting Arms, the Clubface becomes aligned to one of the associated planes.

The Term "roll procedure" is unique from the Clubface Turn and Roll brought about by the Pivot or Orbiting Arms, or Clubshaft Rotation using Swivel.

A greater #3 Accumulator Angle produces more Clubhead travel for all Three Roll Procedures. A rising tide raises all boats.

You're confusing "Swivel" and "Hinge". From the Swivel perspective, the Clubhead is experiencing travel distances because you're changing the amount of Swivel Rotation per inches of Hand travel. Swivel doesn't Align the Clubface to any associated Plane. The Clubface is Aligned to the Rotation of the Shaft.

Swivel is very different than Hinging.

Look at my dowel rod setups in post #74. Attach a Club alongside of the short dowel and as you rotate about the Axis, notice that the Clubface becomes associated with the same axis as the perpendicular pole. Then, you'll appreciate RPM per TGM.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FDRTQ...ayer_embedded#!

RPM, RPM, RPM. I like the cardboard door. Great, great video.

Bagger nice to have you posting again. Are you saying that the left wrists direction of cocking is aligned towards the left shoulder despite the Inclined Plane Angle? Id maintain it cocks and uncocks on the Inclined Plane whilst the left hand is turned to plane. Making D's drawings accurate for a "left shoulder" plane , only.

Daryl,
I may have missed alot in this thread - however I could see Bernt's point and since in your post #26 you stated "But because the Flat Left Wrist and Clubface remained aligned (Left Arm Wedge) during the 9-3 interval, they have the same Rhythm - RPM." I was just noting that when you have forearm or upper arm rotation with a number 3 accumulator- it will add (assuming it's in the direction of the target) to the RPM of the clubshaft and make it different than that of the arm/hand unit - regardless whether the left wrist remains flat and the flying wedge remains intact. That's all - nothing more.

P.S. Just so there is no confusion if someone is reading this post trying to learn - I'm assuming you meant Clubshaft and not Clubface - in the highlighted quote above.

Noooo. Its not about a left shoulder incline plane alignment, its about a left shoulder hinge pin.

Again - the top of the triangle is the hinge pin (left shoulder), the middle angle is the left wrist, the bottom angle is the clubhead. The line between the clubhead and left shoulder hinge pin is a reference line to complete the plane. (Its a "flying" wedge).

See the video from lynn above, then look at the drawings and imagine the left arm flying wedge in motion throughout the stroke. Including #3 accumulator roll. The left wrist is the wedge in the triangle and the outer edge of the plane rotates around it through impact.

When the clubshaft is on the inclined plane, the uncocking and roll occurs on the incline plane. The bottom line between the left wrist point and clubhead point represents the clubshaft.

Another way to visualize is imagine a rubber string from the clubhead to your left shoulder. That would represent an outer edge of the wedge. And yes, the string would hit your neck near the top of backstroke. Just pretend its a magic string that can pass through your neck without chopping off your head.

I wish we could animate this stuff.

K and thanks cause this is a sticking point for me......been one for a while now.

So we agree the left arm flying wedge does not lie on the Inclined Plane at Top for all but the "theoretical left arm plane" and the club always lies full length on the inclined plane at all times. And the left arm flying wedge is defined as the Plane of the left wrist cock. So the left wrist will cock and uncock in the direction of the left shoulder but the club will correspondingly move up and down the inclined plane ( not off plane towards the left shoulder) ? How's this happen? Divergent Vectors?

In the video you pointed out, Lynn turns DTL and appears to cock and uncock on the inclined plane as opposed to the plane of the left wrist cock, the left arm flying wedge.......does he not?

And what about 10-2-D grips where the left hand cocks in the same direction as the right hand bends..........does that mean the Left Forearm Flying Wedge has rotated closer to the Right Forearm Flying Wedge, that they are no longer 90 degrees to one another?

Seriously this has been a foggy notion for me for a while. And it relates directly to Rhythm in some way ......or Ill have to apologize again ......yes cause in the case of the Left Arm Plane there is no #3 Angle by definition which means that all Hinge Actions have the same associated Travel and therefor the same Rhythm. Back on topic.

Hammerin' Down
 

The Cocking and Uncocking of the Flat Left Wrist does indeed occur on the Inclined Plane. However, it remains a Perpendicular Motion (4-B-0/A/B/C) relative to itself.

Visualize a simple hammering action. The 'standard' motion is performed perpendicularly. However, it is often performed at an angle (on an incline, if you will). The same 'sideways' action occurs in the Golf Stroke.

:golfcart2:

Thank you Yoda.

I must admit to being confused by how the plane of the left wrist cock (the Left Arm Flying Wedge) is often not the plane on which the left wrist actually cocks (the inclined plane). Perhaps I miss the obvious.

I think I see the confusion.

The plane of the left wristcock motion is up the left arm.
The left arm is not on plane, only the clubshaft is on plane.

So how can the clubshaft uncock on plane if the motion is up the left arm?
Is that it?

Search Party
 

I wrote a post on this exact point several years ago. It wasn't the easiest to write, but I did a respectable job. It would be worth the search to find it!

P.S. Thanks for lifting the 'still' from the video. Nice Turned Shoulder Plane alignments: Shaft through the Right Shoulder. Left Wrist Flat, Cocked, and Turned on Plane. Right Wrist Bent, Level, and Turned on Plane. Clubface perfect. I like it!

:salut:

:BangHead: :BangHead: :BangHead:


I don't think TGM would have surfaced if this was irrelevant. The flat left wrist that was one of Homer's first discoveries - and probably the single variable that mostly caused his early success on the golf course to be highly variable. It's the RPM difference that breaks down the Flat Left Wrist.

The flip is embedded in the geometry and the external physics of the stroke, and unless you deliberately do something to prevent it (and know what it takes) it will happen.

Rhythm isn't just about resisting CF. But CF makes it really difficult to obtain a good rhythm.

I think ther's some gradual wrist rotation going on. So that the wrist cock motion is on the inclined plane even thought the LAFW will always be more vertical than the plane.

I have a little home video of you DTL doing much the same but with two arms attached saying the "the right arm lifts and lowers , lifts and lowers .......on plane ....there's the Throw ....on plane...." or similar. Priceless. If you ever want it I could put it up on Youtube. Maybe its already covered in Alignment Golf.

I only meant that it was irrelevant to my perspective of RPM. :oops:

Friendly Force
 

Actually, Centrifugal Force -- more precisely, the Centripetal Force that produces it -- is the essence of Rhythm. As an example, the string (centripetal force) holding a whirling ball in orbit has no problem maintaining its tension and staying straight (thereby maintaining its in-line rhythm).

The problem we have in golf is that it is easy to override Centrifugal Force, usually with Off Plane Clubhead Throwaway. "We has seen the enemy," said Pogo, "and it is us."

:salut:

The club swinging the golfer
 

Yes I basically agree,

But you gotta see this from the clubhead's point of view also ;-)

As soon as the golfer has given the clubhead some serious speed the clubhead starts to give the golfer a really hard time. It will do everything it can to pull the hands out of the swing plane and also try to stup the hands from moving forward until the clubhead has taken the lead and pulls the hands through. If the clubhead succeeds in it's efforts the whole golf stroke will collapses in a giant flip.

All this is due to CF and CP. When the golfers only uses CP it is basically responding to the clubhead CF. The golfer is then swinging the club and not the hands. And the lag and the swing plane is ruined by the release.

The golfer need to enforce the hand path. It needs to override the slowing down - almost reversal - effect that the clubhead CF imposes on the hands. The golfer also needs to add some extra force downward (and inward) to prevent the clubhead from pulling the hands out of the swing plane. Since the left shoulder (the hinge pin) is above the inclined plane, the clubhead will seek to establish a new handpath on a plane that intersects the clubhead and the Left Shoulder.

The Right Shoulder will be over the swing plane too, so pushing with the right tricep (drive loading or extencior action) will contribute to driving the hands forward and prevent them from flying out of the plane.

Swinging the clubhead by CP only is certainly the worst alternative. Ignoring the clubhead and swinging the hands is the second best alternative. The good golfer anticipates how clubhead CF can destroy the geometry and enforces the hand path.

The clubhead doesn't want to just be a clubhead. It wants to take over the show. It wants to swing the golfer. Clubheads have feelings too. No they don't. But when they start carry mass-velocity and still is in an out of line condition, they take on a will on their own. The golfer need to apply a healthy quantity of linear force to sustain the lag pressure through impact. I don't think many of the slicer's were made aware of that when they started to play golf.

:golf:

A Rose By Any Other Name . . . Is Still A Rose
 

In fact, it is the other way around. Without centripetal force (CP), there can be no centrifugal force (CF).

:)

In my previous 'whirling ball' example, the ball is experiencing centripetal acceleration toward the center of the rotating motion. The string supplies this inward pull. Newton's Third Law (equal and opposite reaction) causes the ball to pull on the string. But . . .

There is no physical force (such as another string) pulling outward on the ball, despite the observed phenomenon (outward pull) we call centrifugal force. The ball's acceleration is due solely to the existence of the centripetal force (the string). Hence, the ignominious distinction applied to centrifugal force: a "fictitious" or "pseudo" force.

Homer Kelley knew this, of course, and therefore defined Centrifugal Force in The Glossary as it should be understood and used by golfers:

Mechanical -- The resistance of the Inertia in an orbiting object to change in direction.

Golf -- The effort of the Swinging Clubhead to pull the Primary Lever Assembly (Left Arm and Club) into a straight line.

So, don't be buffaloed by those who argue that TGM is "junk science" because centrifugal force "doesn't exist". It exists all right, just not in the way it is commonly perceived. My suggestion is to use this "fictitious" force the way Homer intended:

Turn your 9-ounce Clubhead into a wrecking ball!

:golfcart2:

You say Yin and I say Yang - or was it the other way around:laughing9


That's a very clever definition. One of my favourites. Makes those who criticise TGM for refering to CF easy targets.

I don't know whether my point went through, but my point was that we don't want the Left Arm and Club to be pulled into a straight line. We want it to be pulled, We want it to straighten. But not all the way. And perhaps not with the rhythm that throwout will impose if you just let it rip without a power package structure that keeps it under control. Cause the inclined plane would also shift upwards if we let it happen and right afterwards the straightening we would have a bent left wrist.

We do want to sustain the line of compression and we want to sustain the inclined plane, don't we?

"Junk Science" At Work On the PGA TOUR
 

In the conversation we're having now, Bernt, I first want to make sure we have our principles right. It's important we understand the underlying laws our procedures must avoid, harness, or overpower (2-L). It's also important that we "get it right" as we present TGM to others.

TGM has been under attack since Homer Kelley published the first edition in 1969. In the 41 years since, most assaults were bred of a distrust in its scientific approach to the game. Lately, a handful of detractors say it's not scientific enough. And yet they still quote from it.

Go figure.

Meanwhile, BG shot 64 yesterday in the final round of The Sony. He averaged 274 yards off the tee and averaged 100 percent Driving Accuracy. (I like 100 percent averages: they're easy to figure. :smile:) It was the low round of the day, and trust me, he ain't givin' a dime back.

:laughing9

Yoda,

I believe the point I was trying to make is in the book. You refer to 2-L so I get the impression that you believe I'm talking about steering. But that's not what I'm talking about.

I don't see my line of reasoning here as an attack on TGM but if that's how it appears I'll step back from the discussion.

PS: Congrats on your student.

It's not my place to say, but it sounds like "mentoring", not "criticism".

In that case, I'm all ears.

Battle Stations
 

I wasn't referring to you, Bernt.

It's one thing to seek a deeper understanding of TGM and even to question its core principles. I welcome questions of all kinds and have almost 9,000 posts over the past seven years to prove it. Whatever conclusions one draws from those earnest pursuits are fine with me. That has been your approach, and I respect it.

But, it's quite another to insult Homer Kelley and deride his monumental work as "junk science", all the while proclaiming yourself to be the "greatest" golf instructor of our time and of all time. Particularly when the work served well as you awaited enlightened nirvana. As did the helping hands of the many whose knowledge you sought along the way and who now have been discarded as so much bilge water in your own personal destroyer. That is happening now in another quarter, and quite frankly, it stinks.

"How sharper than a serpent's tooth it is
To have a thankless child!"

-- Shakespeare / King Lear

Meanwhile, we best serve ourselves and others by getting our facts right -- those in the book and those in its underlying science. I noticed in your post that you had your "centrifugals" and "centripetals" mixed up. That's why I gave you the information you needed to straighten them out.

And now . . .

Torpedo hatch secured. Left full rudder.

All ahead full.

:salut:

Here Here!

The world of TGM is better off without some folks. Now we can do exactly that,

"Torpedo hatch secured. Left full rudder. All ahead full."

Starting January 24th, OUR LBG REVOLUTION begins at 9:20 AM during the PGA Teaching Summit.

Go get em YODA!

Kevin

Bright Knife In the Drawer
 

Thanks, Daryl. This adds to my post #102 above.

Gotta love savvy guys and this Internet!

:salut:

Homer Kelley had this Centrifugal Reaction thing figured out: see 2-M-2 #2.

:golfcart2: