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Tom Bartlett 01-02-2006 11:31 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by brianmanzella
These are my (Brian Manzella) answers to the above questions.

This debate needs some closure and the best way for that—in my opinion—is a review.

What better way to start a review than to state your case—one more time—to the readers.

Where should the HEAD be at address?
In general, I position the golfer to be tilted from the hips enough to get the belt line close to pointing at the ball. I then create what I call “golf arms”: slightly inward rotation with the right forearm on plane. I guess I am setting the wedges, but to be honest, I prefer Standard Address for most players, so the left arm wedge is really not ‘set.’ From there the right hand being lower on the club takes care of any slight axis tilt.

I then place the ball in whatever ball position I am using for that golfer, and wherever that ‘puts’ the head, that’s where I leave it.

I never, ever put the head some place, just to have it there.


Do you teach whatever that is, the same to everyone?
No.

Do you make any exceptions?
For someone needing help to get to the inside-aft quadrant for whatever reason, I position the tailbone a bit closer to the target and then the head slightly to the right to maintain the same ‘balance.’

For the golfer needing to swinging to far to the right, I position them slightly the other way.

These are not absolutes though. I’ll create an address that helps the player with the pattern, like pre-turned hips, etc.


What should the HEAD do during the swing?
It should move as little as possible. But I really don’t want the base of the neck to move at all.

Do you teach whatever that is, the same to everyone?
Nope.

Do you make any exceptions?
All the time.

First, slicers have—in general—horrible pivots. Their head moves forward and tilts left, the hips slide way right, the shoulders turn way to steep. Once I fix the clubface, they now have a new need, to hit the inside-aft quadrant. To get them to do this, I fix the address position and then observe their ‘new’ pivots. It will often still need lots of work. This work requires—almost always—a more Standard Hip Turn, and a Flatter Shoulder Turn. If they STILL can’t make a backswing pivot that allows for them to come right down plane, I get them to turn around their spine, which 99% of the time, requires some head movement to the right on the backswing—but next to ZERO base of the neck movement. A classic shoulder turn takeaway, you might want to call it.

Hookers almost always need the opposite, they really to turn less and less flat. They have developed those problems trying to swing more out to right field, to “play” their hook. These golfers need the clubface/leakage issues addressed, but often I will fix the plane line first. This process is always sped up by creating less axis tilt, more forward ball position and the resultant more centered head.
These golfers need a steeper shoulder turn, less hip turn, etc. and they are almost always helped by a right forearm pickup, delayed hip turn, and less axis tilt on the downstroke.

Again, these are not absolutes at all, just generalities. I ALWAYS let the imperatives dictate the components and all the parts of the pattern.
curious to know Lynn and Ted's response.

Yoda 01-02-2006 12:16 PM
U-Boats Surfacing In The Affluent Convoy
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DD639

curious to know Lynn and Ted's response.
[For those who may not know, DD639 is a site admin on Brian's website.]

Please pardon Ted and I for not jumping through our assigned hoops. We are too busy cowering under this murderous assault of 'friendly fire.' :rolleyes:

Is it any wonder that TGM has such problems from the 'outside' when there is such dysfunction and professional jealously on the 'inside?'

Yoda 01-02-2006 12:33 PM
The Not-So-Great Debate
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by brianmanzella

This debate needs some closure and the best way for that—in my opinion—is a review.
This thread was not started as a debate. It was started to illustrate a fundamental truth: the Pivot needs some fixed point acting as a Swing Center. I stated that position clearly in my post #10, well before Brian made any appearance in the thread. That post read:

"Actually, Homer is saying that something at the upper end of the Pivot -- not necessarily the Head -- must remain Stationary to stabilize the motion. He recommended the Head as the Pivot Center because you can tell when it moves (you can see more 'under' the Ball). However, you can alternatively choose to keep the top of the spine -- the point 'between the shoulders' -- stationary. Either way, there is no Sway. In both cases, there is a Centered Pivot Motion. It is all a matter of what the player monitors."

What has Brian said that runs counter to that thesis? Nothing. In fact, he has been in complete agreement. To have a 'debate' there must be an opposing argument. Here we have none. Hence, ipso facto, no debate.

What we do have is one man's attempt to establish who is 'best.' To differentiate and 'brand' -- his word -- himself as Golf's 'Mr. Fix-It' versus Lynn and Ted as self-constrained 'Homer's Own.'

Works for me.

Tom Bartlett 01-02-2006 12:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoda
[For those who may not know, DD639 is a site admin on Brian's website.]

Please pardon Ted and I for not jumping through our assigned hoops. We are too busy cowering under this murderous assault of 'friendly fire.' :rolleyes:

Is it any wonder that TGM has such problems from the 'outside' when there is such dysfunction and professional jealously on the 'inside?'
Lynn,

What's up man??? I re-post Brian's post and you ATTACK ME. I am just curious as to your response as I am sure a lot of others are.

Last time I asked you a question you went off on me. I then called you on the phone and we had a nice talk. Right or Wrong?

You said you understood what happened, that it was a misunderstanding. Right or Wrong?

Now I re-post something and you are coming after me again.

I'm not mad at YOU, why are you doing this to ME???

Others on this thread have re-posted and wanted more response or debate and you didn't REPLY OR ATTACK them.

People are now asking you to "jump through hoops when they ask you a question?
That's it no more questions on Lynn's site.

Professional Jealousy... WHAT??? I have nothing to be Jealous about.

Dysfunction??? Now I think you are just trying to be funny right? Because, you certainly aren't serious I hope?

I'll try this again...Could you please respond to Brian's post?
I would like to know the answer.

Thank You Very Much,
Tom Bartlett
Or as Lynn says "site administrator on Brian's site"

Yoda 01-02-2006 01:03 PM
The Message And The Messenger
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DD639

Lynn,

Last time I asked you a question you went off on me. I then called you on the phone and we had a nice talk. Right or Wrong?

You said you understood what happened, that it was a misunderstanding. Right or Wrong?

There is innuendo...and there is fact.

Innuendo: Your quote above.

Fact: You returned my call.

Fact: Yes, I understood your explanation -- for an ill choice of the words 'ulterior motive' in describing my suggestion of a senior AI review of the pending 7th edition of TGM -- and I accepted your genuinely-extended apology.

If I have misinterpreted your 'curiosity' in this latest instance, I stand corrected and offer my own apology. But, to me it sounded very much like, "The gauntlet has been thrown, let's see you guys pick it up."

Still does, as a matter of fact.

brianmanzella 01-02-2006 04:23 PM
Lynn,

I just produced an hour long audio, that would really help people to see what has really happened in this thread.

Spin is spin, but, trust me, this thread makes more of my points than you would like to admit.

If you wish, I'll post it. But, I think, that if you answered the questions that I did above, at least people could see what you guys are really saying.

Your call.

Rob2197 01-02-2006 06:31 PM
Sad
 
I don't think I'm learning much of anything from this thread irregardless of either side is right, wrong or agreeing.

It just two things apparent to me - (1) that TGM will never be mainstream for a reason and (2) maybe I should just give up on TGM altogether and not even strive for improvement

Yoda 01-02-2006 06:54 PM
Golf Our Way
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by brianmanzella

Lynn,

I just produced an hour long audio, that would really help people to see what has really happened in this thread.

Spin is spin, but, trust me, this thread makes more of my points than you would like to admit.

If you wish, I'll post it. But, I think, that if you answered the questions that I did above, at least people could see what you guys are really saying.

Your call.
The thread topic was the Centered Pivot as performed by the majority of history's great champions versus the Non-Centered Pivot espoused in much of today's conventional instruction. My only 'point' was -- and is -- that the Centered Pivot as taught by Homer Kelley is correct. That is, the Pivot needs a Center and that Center can be either the Head or the 'spine between the shoulders.' You not only have agreed with that thesis, you have stated that, indeed, you teach both Centers. Inexplicably, though there has been no disagreement, conflict continues for the sole reason that you seem bound and determined to create it.

Regarding what I am "really saying," I today went over the 2,500-post mark. Most of those were detailed explanations and interpretations of Homer Kelley's work. That number does not include the more than 1,500 private messages I've responded to in the past year. In addition, I've put up a substantial amount of video that is readily available without charge. I submit that is more than enough material for our members to identify "what you guys are really saying."

However, this is an open forum, and you are welcome to post your audio to give others the help you apparently think they need to determine "what has really happened in this thread." One caveat: If you use the podium to misrepresent what I teach or to attack either Ted Fort or me personally, it will come down. Why? Because posting here is a privilege to be enjoyed by those who respect Golf as a gentleman's game and not as a street brawl.

Bobby Jones wrote:

"It is of the very essence of golf that it should be played in a completely sociable atmosphere conducive to the utmost in courtesy and consideration of one player for the others, and upon the very highest level in matters of sportsmanship, observance of the rules, and fair play."

This was the way Mr. Jones felt about the game of golf.

This is the way I feel about the Forum interactions on our site.

Yoda 01-02-2006 07:13 PM
Knock, Knock...Anybody Home?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikestloc

Because God knows that all the other methods, systems, and "ways to do it" have no internal bickering or debate over their doxology....

:)
Welcome, mikestloc, Brian Manzella site admin #2. Hey guys, who's minding the store? :D

I will debate where there is a worthwhile point of argument. So far in this thread, there has been none. I will not engage in conflict for its own sake -- and thus far there has been plenty -- especially when it has been deliberately created to serve a regularly proclaimed personal agenda.

brianmanzella 01-02-2006 07:41 PM
Lynn Blake,

(this is a yes or no question)

Do you teach the following to all new students:

Pivot Tripod Center with the head precisely between the feet at address and steady through the follow-through?

Yoda 01-02-2006 08:37 PM
The Stationary Head -- What I Teach
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by brianmanzella

Lynn Blake,

Do you teach the following to all new students:

Pivot Tripod Center with the head precisely between the feet at address and steady through the follow-through?
In all my group presentations and individually where the student's Head Location or Movement is disruptive -- and it often is because of the conventional instruction that was the origin of this thread -- I teach Homer Kelley's Pivot Swing Center Tripod concept as illustrated in the photo sequences of 9-1 and 9-2 of the 6th edition and as explained in his additions to the as-yet-unpublished 7th edition:

"The important thing is that the true Swing Center -- for all components -- is around a Hinge Pin with one end at the top of the Stationary Head and the other in the ground precisely between the Feet, with no regard for Body Location or Position at any time."

"All components" includes the Head, which when permitted to revolve on this Pin as its axis of rotation, does not violate the Stationary Head concept.

This is the ideal, whether or not it is achieved or even can be achieved by the player, regardless of his or her level of skill. It requires that the Head be correctly located in its Impact Location at Address. Of course, this rarely happens and when it does, it is almost always an instinctive positioning born of many years of Practice and Play. Most top players locate the correct Centered location dynamically during the Start Down, not at Address. No matter: Within human constraints, Homer knew it could be done and done on purpose by all -- Tour Player and Duffer alike -- who wished to improve their Games. However, it almost certainly will not happen without the aid of an Instructor who knows its value and who insists on its accomplishment, ideally during the player's formative years.

But Homer was nothing if not a realist. He knew that most players -- even good players -- move their Head during the Stroke. And some play very good Golf doing it. That is why he labeled the Stationary Head an Essential and not an Imperative.

Nevertheless, as he said in the book (12-0):

"Those who know how precise it can be know best how precise it needs to be."

And as he told me in person:

"When you get to a higher level of performance, to improve on it you have to get down to finer and finer lines of precision."

The Tripod Concept with its Stationary Head is fundamental to Zone #1 (Body) control. For those who would pursue the path of The Golfing Machine® and its 'finer and finer lines of precision,' it is exactly what I teach.

brianmanzella 01-02-2006 08:46 PM
Thanks for the response, Lynn.

I really am sorry these threads go off on tangents, but, that's the nature of these forums.

I have personal goals and wishes and also wishes for The Golfing Machine. So do you.

You & I do agree that Homer's work was very important to golf and we will each continue to spread the word in the way we both see fit.

Good Luck with everything in 2006,

Brian :)

Yoda 01-02-2006 08:59 PM
Taps
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by brianmanzella

Thanks for the response, Lynn.
You're welcome, Brian.

It's what I do.

Yoda 01-02-2006 09:04 PM
Day Is Done
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikestloc

so, Lynn...is the answer "yes" to brian's question in post #141...or "no".....just for clarification's sake
Show's over, Mike. Give it a rest.

ldeit 01-02-2006 09:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoda

Show's over, Mike. Give it a rest.
YES!

ldeit

Yoda 01-02-2006 09:17 PM
Some Things Never Change
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikestloc

wow, you would think that a simple yes or no would be forthcoming from such a prolific poster and hoster....

i truly think that many of your forum members who haven't had the pleasure of taking a lesson from you would like to know the definitive answer from the definitive source (you) concerning the definitive manual...
And so it goes...

golfmachine 01-02-2006 10:02 PM
As a lightweight member of this forum I shouldn't preach to the heavyweights or the superheavyweights but IMO this thread has been hijacked and it is time for an Administrator to step in and remove certain kiddies from the sandbox.

TGMfan 01-02-2006 10:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikestloc
i truly think that many of your forum members who haven't had the pleasure of taking a lesson from you would like to know the definitive answer from the definitive source (you) concerning the definitive manual...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoda
The Tripod Concept with its Stationary Head is fundamental to Zone #1 (Body) control. For those who would pursue the path of The Golfing Machine® and its 'finer and finer lines of precision,' it is exactly what I teach.
Mike,

As a forum member who is serious about using the precision of TGM to improve my game, Yoda's answer tells me exactly what I'd expect to learn if I ever have the pleasure of taking a lesson from him. Please don't pretend you're continuing this third degree for my benefit. :confused:

Bagger Lance 01-02-2006 10:07 PM
I've had my finger on the trigger golfmachine, but because of professional courtesy it has remained live.

I hope out of professional courtesy, it will stay that way.

Thanks,

Bagger

comdpa 01-02-2006 10:11 PM
Where are my glasses...
 
Husband: "Dearie, where are my glasses??? Where are my DAMNED glasses? I clearly had them on the dining table! Why is it that you love to take my belongings and place them wherever you want without TELLING ME where it is."

Wife: "They are right in front of you. You are wearing them."

stilltrying 01-02-2006 10:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikestloc

"and as far as the members of this forum who are just so shocked at my behavior."
Nah, pretty much have come to expect it.

Yoda 01-02-2006 10:35 PM
Blue Suede Shoes
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikestloc
do you teach a stationary head (an essential) to all new students?

a simple question....

if "yes"...then you have stayed true to Homer and his desires...

if "no" then you're not staying the course......

you either are or you aren't...as a site admin from LBG stated last week...

is this a catch 22 situation for you, lynn?....brian has already stated that he doesn't......

how about you?......answer as haughtily as you care....

and as far as the members of this forum who are just so shocked at my behavior.....give me a break.....i would much rather someone who speaks his mind rather than someone who talks out of the side of his mouth....

and yes, lynn and ted...if the shoe fits...then wear it
Just for you, Michael...

Yes.

and...

No.

:cool:

:D

Yes -- Always as an ideal.

No -- Never as a mandated procedure.

\\:D/

brianmanzella 01-02-2006 10:38 PM
Happy Trails to you.....
 
A funny thing happened in 2005.

Ben Doyle, Lynn Blake and myself Brian Manzella, along with assistance from Ted Fort and Mike Finney, did a golf school at Canton, Georgia.

It was a success.

The reason I say this, is I have talked to almost every attendee and they all loved it.

The only complaint was perhaps there was TOO MUCH good information.

It was MY GOAL for the school to show the "Golfing Machine" world and the "Golf World," that we could all coexist and the students would all learn.

The Golfing Machine is a SYSTEM that explains ALL methods. There were three different methods being employed at Canton.

If you asked Lynn or Ted, or Mike, or Ben, or I how we did at the school (I am talking individually) I think we would all say very good.

It was professionally videotaped and the video will be released soon. I can't wait, because there will be many discussions about what is on the video. I will stay out of them on this site, though.

And here is why:

Trust me, Ben disagrees with some of what I said at Canton and some of what Lynn did. Lynn disagrees with some of what I said at Canton and some of what Ben did.

I personally didn't mind hardly ANY of what was said, but watching other teachers teach gives me an upset stomach. I always feel like they are teaching in slow-motion.

I'm sure when and if the other teachers (except Mike, who is used to me) watched me teach, I drove THEM crazy.

So, what's the point?

The point is that everyone has their opinion, and people see things differently.

Lynn has a site here and he deserves to put whatever spin on things he pleases.

I have plenty on my plate now, and when my new site is up very soon, I will have even more.

Me, Tom Bartlett and Mike Finney are all very passionate about golf and G.O.L.F., so is Lynn and Ted and for sure, so is Ben.

So The Manzella Golf Academy will continue to believe we have the answers and so will Lynn Blake Golf.

I wouldn't take a lesson from anyone who didn't think they did.

So, I am trying to get the heck out of here and give Lynn some peace and quiet.

Hit 'em straight,

Brian Manzella, PGA, G.S.E.D.

efnef 01-02-2006 11:08 PM
Twas ever thus.
 
The golf forums always get a bit testy in the winter. And Martee, if you're lurking, why the @#!!@%!! did we move to North Carolina? You call this year round golfin' weather? :D

mb6606 01-02-2006 11:24 PM
IF truly using a RFT wouldn't a moving head be an affectation??

Martee 01-02-2006 11:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by efnef
The golf forums always get a bit testy in the winter. And Martee, if you're lurking, why the @#!!@%!! did we move to North Carolina? You call this year round golfin' weather? :D
Well it is a bit wet but I did play yesterday and planning on playing tomorrow. Worst case is I will break down and buy a rain suit or umbrella (my last one dried rotted in the desert(.

But I like NC.....

12 piece bucket 01-02-2006 11:39 PM
Next thing these foreigners'll be whinin' about the BBQ . . .

Yoda 01-02-2006 11:46 PM
Hush Y'all
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mb6606

IF truly using a RFT wouldn't a moving head be an affectation??
Good call, mb. When you've got the right things going on, everything gets real quiet.

Shhh....

Deliberate.

Positive.

Heavy.

12 piece bucket 01-03-2006 12:01 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoda
Good call, mb. When you've got the right things going on, everything gets real quiet.

Shhh....

Deliberate.

Positive.

Heavy.
That is the FIRST thing I felt when Eddie Cox gave me my first official Machine Lesson . . .

"Damn that felt like I just stood there, faced the ball and picked it up" Bucket

"Yep. That's it." Eddie

Jason S. 01-03-2006 01:25 AM
Aside from the violence.....
 
The pivot is the most important thing in my swing right now. When I do it right I feel effortless and the ball flies. Aside from the obvious showboating/arguing, I appreciate this thread. I used to have a huge sway....I just didn't know it, cause someone taught it to me as the right way. Now I feel like a spinning top who spins in place....TGM is the truth in G.O.L.F. Thanks Homer!

I feel it is a shame you guys can't get along.

efnef 01-03-2006 06:36 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 12 piece bucket
Next thing these foreigners'll be whinin' about the BBQ . . .
Don't even go there. I'm from Texas. We is speakin' different languages. :)

efnef 01-03-2006 06:37 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martee
Well it is a bit wet but I did play yesterday and planning on playing tomorrow. Worst case is I will break down and buy a rain suit or umbrella (my last one dried rotted in the desert(.

But I like NC.....
I like NC, but every day off I have had for the last 2 months has been rainy or too cold. Must be me.

12 piece bucket 01-03-2006 10:43 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by efnef
Don't even go there. I'm from Texas. We is speakin' different languages. :)
Oh boy . . . One of them. Oink beats Moo every time! :D

Rob2197 01-03-2006 11:23 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 12 piece bucket
Oh boy . . . One of them. Oink beats Moo every time! :D
most national BBQ chicken winners almost every year - Georgia :D

Mathew 01-05-2006 01:27 AM
Quote:
When you later said in regards to the great pictures Martee made.

This is the first post

Quote:
The picture are not in a 'sequence,' so what?
Actually this is absolutely incorrect! They are a sequence and now I fixed the frames 'in photoshop' after being scanned badly, we can see quite clearly that they are a match just how far off this line is...

Mathew 01-05-2006 01:30 AM
For the cause
 
[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by brianmanzella
Oh yeah...

...also notice I cleaned up your work , (much clearer...lol)
Hmmmmm No.....

Your yellow line goes right through Sam's Shoulder Blade...lol

Now, I knew there would be no picture with lines on it that would prove/convince you to you what im about to show you - so I took extreme measures ....lol



Now I don't believe you can argue with this line right ?....

Ok, lets look at the backstroke...



Notice how at address the spine is tilted towards the target and how the spine leans away from the target....

Now look at the photo of snead again beside me....



Is this supposed to be cleaning up my work, or you just not doing your homework ?

brianmanzella 01-05-2006 02:05 AM
Like I said in another thread, Mathew, a PERFECT backswing by you.

Mathew 01-05-2006 02:27 AM


Hey Brian you were only about half a heads width out....lol

efnef 01-05-2006 07:00 AM
Love the trousers.
 
Great job, Matthew. And thank God you kept your pants on this time.:D


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