Originally Posted by EdZ

So to clarify then, Jen's plane is simply a plane that is 90 degrees (verticle) to the plane of the left wrist cock, through (around) the left arm as the 'hinge pin'.

Which then provides a reference point for the amount of rotation of the left arm flying wedge as it 'turns and rolls' relative to 'the' plane.

Originally Posted by Mathew

Lets discuss the right arm....

Due to the fact that the right forearm can only move straight up and down from its elbow location this means that at any point the entire right arm is always in a plane....



In this plane the closer the right hand goes to the right shoulder - the greater the angle between the upper arm and the forearm. This always creates a triangle shape between the right shoulder to hand - right shoulder to elbow - elbow to hand, except when it is inline. It is actually the right shoulder to hand line that is the third line on the law of the triangle per chapter 6.



PS - Im looking for this to be a active discussion. If you have any input to give or feel you want to add something - please discuss :)

Originally Posted by Mathew

Lets discuss the right arm....

Due to the fact that the right forearm can only move straight up and down from its elbow location this means that at any point the entire right arm is always in a plane....



In this plane the closer the right hand goes to the right shoulder - the greater the angle between the upper arm and the forearm. This always creates a triangle shape between the right shoulder to hand - right shoulder to elbow - elbow to hand, except when it is inline. It is actually the right shoulder to hand line that is the third line on the law of the triangle per chapter 6.



PS - Im looking for this to be a active discussion. If you have any input to give or feel you want to add something - please discuss :)

Originally Posted by Mike O

Just a small trivial thing- but to keep everything crystal clear- the more the hand is closer to the right shoulder- the "larger the angle" is what you said. So for me that's looking at it from the "other side", "the underside"- because I first think of "THE ANGLE" as the angle that is between the hand and the shoulder- and that angle gets smaller as the hand approaches the shoulder. So you are talking about the angle getting greater because you are looking at it as if there is a circle that passes through the shoulder and the hand- and as the hand and shoulder are moving closer together- while the angle between the two get smaller the other "angle" of the 360 degree circle gets larger.

Have I got it?

Also, Matthew - some very interesting stuff- but I've got to understand it before I give it the rave reviews that it might deserve. I'll get there just need some time.

Thanks,
Mike

P.S. I didn't pay attention to your second drawing- which clearly shows how the context in which you are referring to a larger angle when the right hand is closer to the right shoulder. You are taking the angle from the right shoulder as I was looking at it from the right elbow. Maybe your description of the "greater angle between the upper arm and forearm" could be improved.

Originally Posted by Mathew

Actually, I did make a mistake on the angle increasing. Mike O your quite correct - I did mean that it gets smaller on the V made by the upper arm and the lower arm...

Anyways...lol

Now since the right forearm is directly onplane at impact we can now know why you can't zero shift the turned shoulder plane and have the right shoulder onplane at impact and the right forearm also on that same plane. The only way that this can happen is a)the right arm is fully straightened or b)the plane of the elbow bend is the same as the inclined plane (push basic stroke) - not really good options...

So lets look at how you can get the right forearm directly on the inclined plane at impact.

The straight line of the triangle that goes between the right shoulder to the hands always stays on the inclined plane and the angle that the right elbow plane goes through the inclined plane being a factor on the right forearm position (vertical furthest away). As an approximation the length of the right forearm and the right upper arm is about the same - so relative to the plane of the right elbow bend plane - the angle on the right upper arm to the forearm will be double the degrees that of the angle of the shoulder to hands to the elbow. The only precise way would be to measure accurately and use simple trignometry.

Originally Posted by golf2much

Inclined plane yes, sweet spot plane maybe not; Wouldn't the RFA reside on a plane nearly parallel to and slightly below the true sweetspot plane if at impact your wrists are only level? Given that the sweetspot of the club is not inline with the shaft, wouldn't this have to be the case? For the RFA to be on the SS Plane, your wrists would hae to be slightly uncocked at impact, right? I realize that in reality, the difference would be negligible, but but isn't it there all the same?

G2M

Originally Posted by Mathew

The right wrist always stays level regardless of the left wrist cocking motion - the right forearm is on the inclined plane - which includes the sweetspot at impact for, lets just say a very short time, as the right forearm has a 'cross-line motion' as it straightens. This is due to the right shoulder being above the inclined plane used for release.

Originally Posted by Mathew

Now for looking at more things.

The right forearm whilst always in the plane of the elbow bend, it can still rotate - hence it can turn and roll also.

Originally Posted by Bagger Lance

Mathew,

It's going to get more tricky here with paddlewheel action, the straightening of the right elbow and it's effect on the #3 accumulator.

Hinge action will dictate right forearm roll characteristics.

Bagger

Originally Posted by Mathew

One step at a time...lol. This is going to be one long thread...lol

Originally Posted by Bagger Lance

But then again, you might knock this one out in just a few posts!

Bagger

Originally Posted by Mike O

Bagger have you been drinking!

Originally Posted by golf2much

Mike;

I'll try to do a better job with this later, but I wanted to comment on the "real golfer" aspect. My opinion, and sort of along the line that bagger posted earlier, is that I'm not sure, nor I think is Matthew, of the future long term uses of this new information. I can see difficulties in it's initial application to the real golfer, in that the nuances of getting accurate measurements coupled with differeing golfer anatomy will make this difficult to apply. In swing analysis, the camera setup will have to be precisely oriented so that the computations won't suffer from differing camera angle perspectives. Also, the difference between traditional wristcock measurements from a front on photo (shaft angle to left forearm), and that calculated by this will be small since the only real difference is the fact that the #3acc plane and the sweetspot plane are only slightly different. At the top, the SSP, the #3acc plane both are the same. As you move down, the #3acc plane drops slightly below the SSP. If it didn't, the ball would be hit by the hozel. This effect causes the traditional method of determing wristcock, or lag to be slightly incorrect since the points of measurement are not on precisely the same plane. This new calculation allows you to evaluate the difference. More later...

G2M

Originally Posted by Mike O

You guys are killing me slowly! :crybaby: :) The combination of me not understanding what your saying and you guys throwing in stuff that isn't clear - it's a tough road- but I've been on this road before so although frustrated I'm still able to hold the composure together.

I could be wrong but I'm hoping you guys can work on being a little better and careful about defining your terms and ideas. One way to do that is to write in addition to the answer those answers or ideas that are wrong- the one's that are easy to mis-interpret and then clarify and compare those with the correct answer. Also, definitions are especially helpful. OK I'll get off my soap box now- just ignore me when relevant.:eyes:

Don't get me wrong- appreciate the help already- I'm just saying you guys are capable of better- and I'm pushing you to do it.No problem, except that as an engineer, I can see the angles and planes, and understand their action, however, my TGM vocabulary is severely lacking, so my apologies. I just try to explain what I see

Golf2much- I don't think/agree that at the top the #3 accumulator and the sweetspot plane are on the same plane. Sure could be but that would be the isolated exception and not the norm. What I meant was that the club's sweetspot and the #3 accumulator would be in the same plane at the top (for a swinger with a roll in the backswing)

I'll start on this particular topic and let you add to or finish it.

Differences at impact fix between the #3 accumulator plane and the Sweetspot plane. First - I'd like you to clarify what you mean by the sweetspot plane in this post, because you could be referring to the sweetspot plane as that inclined plane that the sweetspot travels through as the clubhead travels during the stroke.Yes. If I take an impact position still of myself, and draw a line from the ball and through the right forearm, and then animate the action, this is the plane the sweet spot of the club travels from the top Or you could be referring to a different sweetspot plane- the one that is slightly different than the #3 accumulator- I'll call it the #3 accumulator sweetspot plane as opposed to the #3 accumulator shaft plane. I'll try to clarify. On the same still as above, if I draw a line from the ball to the #3Acc, (butt end of the club) of the club at the top, and annimate the action, the #3acc tracks this plane until just before impact when the #3acc drops slightly below the sweetspot plane defined previously. If you draw a reference line from the ball to the #3acc one frame past impact, the 3frames pre impact and 1 frame post impact plane lines are separated by 6* (with the apex at the ball) This has to happen to some degree or another or the sweetspot of the club would miss the ball and you would have heel/hozel impacts.

Let's look at that one for a moment.

AThe #3 accumulator shaft plane at impact fix with a sandwedge would form a plane that includes these three points- the left shoulder, the #3 pressure point/grip end of the shaft, and the end of the clubshaft near the clubhead/hosel. For clarification sake - if you isolated that #3 accumulator shaft plane - then the three sides of that plane would be 1) the left arm 2) the clubshaft, 3) from the clubshaft near the hosel to the left shoulder. All of those would line up or be on the plane of the #3 accumulator.Remember, we were talking about the Right Arn

The #3 accumulator sweetspot plane at impact fix with the sandwedge would have a couple of differences due to the fact that the sweetspot is 1) further back from the leading edge than the shaft i.e. roughly or crudely half way between the leading edge and rear or top of the clubface - also 2) further away from the hosel i.e. roughly or crudely half way between the hosel and the toe of the clubface.

So that creates two separate differences of the #3 accumulator shaft plane and the "#3 accumulator sweetspot plane". They are as follows: #1) Looking down target- that is from behind the player with the ball between you and the target- the angle of the sweetspot plane at impact fix will be less steep than the shaft angle. Because both use the same point- i.e. #3 pressure point, or end of the grip as one end of that side of the plane but one uses the sweet spot and the other uses the shaft plane as the other point that makes up the "side of the plane".Yes, that is exactly what I am describing

#2) Same thing- from a different perspective- when looking down from above- as if you are hovering over the player in a helicopter- at impact fix with the sandwedge- the #3 accumulator formed on one side by the line between the sweetspot and the #3 pressure point or end of the grip will be leaning more towards the target than the #3 accumulator shaft plane- because the sweetspot is further back of the hosel/end of the shaft. So if that line from the sweet spot and the #3 pressure point or end of the grip were extending up to the left shoulder it would not go through the left shoulder like the #3 shaft accumulator does- the #3 sweetspot accumulator would actually point slightly ahead of the left shoulder. Bringing a little more precision to that relationship to clarify the concept- let's say that the distance from the sweetspot on the clubface to the #3 pressure point is the same distance from the #3 pressure point to the left shoulder- let's just say they were both 3 feet. Now let's say that the sweepspot is 3/4 of an inch back of the shaft- then assuming the shaft was point right at the left shoulder socket at impact fix- as viewed vertically from the helicopter- then the #3 sweetspot accumulator would point 3/4 of an inch ahead of that shoulder socket. Yes, that seems pretty much right.

I'll stop rambling for now- I guess I was trying to clarify the concepts of sweetspot plane that you were referring to and the #3 accumulator plane that you were referring to. I didn't address why they are different and not the same at the top yet,I think they are in the case of a swinger that rolls his clubface to the #3acc plane before starting down but let me know which sweetspot plane you were talking about and any other feedback on this limited and maybe somewhat off topic issue.

Thanks,
Mike o

Originally Posted by golf2much

Great post, sorry for the less than clear explanations.

G2M

Originally Posted by Mike O

No need for an apology- just ignore any venting that I post.

Here is section of the post above with your my post in red and your comment(s) in blue:
AThe #3 accumulator shaft plane at impact fix with a sandwedge would form a plane that includes these three points- the left shoulder, the #3 pressure point/grip end of the shaft, and the end of the clubshaft near the clubhead/hosel. For clarification sake - if you isolated that #3 accumulator shaft plane - then the three sides of that plane would be 1) the left arm 2) the clubshaft, 3) from the clubshaft near the hosel to the left shoulder. All of those would line up or be on the plane of the #3 accumulator.[color="red"]Remember, we were talking about the Right Arn

In the Golfing Machine when referring to the #3 accumulator 6-B-3-0 we are referring to the angle established between the clubshaft and the left forearm. So I didn't follow your comment that "we were talking about the Right Arm".

Originally Posted by golf2much

Originally Posted by Mike O

In my post#135 I quoted your post#119- take a look at it- no where does it say "For the RFA (Right Fore Arm) to be ...."

You've lost me again.

For clarification- When I don't follow something I try to isolate something specific so that I know at least something that is on solid ground- so the area of discussion of any of my posts on this thread - in principle - would ignore the larger context of Matthew's graphic/theory and just isolate one concept that I'm trying to understand.

Sounds like some interesting stuff- but I'm a little burnt- here's a section of my post#34 in this thread
Tell me we're not going to have a "engineer guided thread" - you know the kind that take 200 posts to get to the point! (West Coast LOL)-

Hey, it's probably just me but I could see it coming. I'll just finish off by saying "Looks like some great stuff. Graphics are great compared to anything I could do, but could be better with some shading etc. to show the plane relationships. It'd be nice if you could explain it so I could understand it- but maybe that's an issue with the reader (me) and not the writer. I'll check in every once in awhile on the thread and get caught up to date with any of your new discussions."

Originally Posted by golf2much

I didn't realize which post you had responded to... sorry about that chief(in my best Maxwell Smart voice)But hey, look at it this way... we've got 60 more posts to get to the point.

G2M

Originally Posted by Bagger Lance

Thats it!
That's the solution!

The cone of silence.
We need to raise the cone of silence, then we can hear each other!
:laughing9

Bagger

Originally Posted by golf2much

I didn't realize which post you had responded to... sorry about that chief(in my best Maxwell Smart voice)But hey, look at it this way... we've got 60 more posts to get to the point.

G2M

Originally Posted by golf2much

You've gone and done it now. If we get the cone of slience out now, we'll never get to 200 posts...darn it all:eyes:

G2M

Originally Posted by Mathew

We need to look at the relationship of the right forearm and the motion it makes in relation to the inclined plane in the right elbow bend plane which dictate the wrist conditions.


Heres a graphic.



Now lets define this - regardless of anatomical restrictions

- If the plane of the elbow bend is onplane (pics - row 2)

a)bend and arch wrist motion is onplane with a level wrist throughout when the hand is vertical to the inclined plane (90 degrees turned from elbow bend plane)

b) cock and uncock motion is onplane with a flat wrist when the palm faces the inclined plane (0 degrees from elbow bend plane).

- If the plane of the elbow bend is directly vertical to the inclined plane (pics - row 1)

a) if the hand is vertical to the inclined plane(0 degrees from elbow bend plane), the onplane motion is that of bending and arching, the right forearm motion becomes uncocking (r forearm below plane) and cocking (r forearm above plane)

b) Also if the palm is directly facing the topside of the inclined plane (90 degrees rolled from elbow bend plane) then the cocking and uncocking motions are onplane as the wrist would arch (r forearm below plane) and bend (r forearm above plane)

c) If the palm is facing the underside (90 degrees turned from elbow bend plane) then the bend and arch are reversed from b) but still with the cocking and uncocking motions onplane.


- If the plane of the elbow bend is 45 degrees into the inclined plane (pics - row 3)

a) If the wrist is vertical to the inclined plane (45 degrees turned from elbow bend plane), the onplane motion is that of bending and arching and the right forearm motion becomes uncocking (r forearm below plane) and cocking (r forearm above plane). However the right forearm motion will also change the relationship to the onplane motion in the degree of bend or arch.

b) If the palm is on the topside of the inclined plane (45 degrees rolled from elbow bend plane) then the onplane motion is that of cocking and uncocking and the right forearm motion becomes arching (r.forearm below plane) and bending (r.forearm above plane). Again the right forearm motion will also change the relationship to the onplane motion - cock and uncock.


- If the plane of the elbow bend is 45 degrees into the inclined plane (pics - row 4)

a) If the wrist is vertical to the inclined plane (45 degrees rolled from elbow bend plane), the onplane motion is that of bending and arching and the right forearm motion becomes uncocking (r forearm below plane) and cocking (r forearm above plane). However the right forearm motion will also change the relationship to the onplane motion in the degree of bend or arch.

b) If the palm is on the underside of the inclined plane (45 degrees turned from elbow bend plane) then the onplane motion is that of cocking and uncocking and the right forearm motion becomes bending (r.forearm below plane) and arching (r.forearm above plane). Again the right forearm motion will also change the relationship to the onplane motion - cock and uncock.

This has been a wee bit tricky to type out so if made any errors please correct :)

Originally Posted by Mathew

I just stopped because there didn't seem to be too much interest anymore in the thread. I'll do another post soon :)