If you stop at the top ,where is the lag?
There is a difference between the weight and the lag pressure.
Surely you must have movement to "lag"?

I'm just thinking here, could be wrong...

If you have a obviously whippy shaft, and hold the club up, the shaft will droop because the weight of the clubhead. No continuous movement. Things just are. The hands feel the pressure generated by this initial lag.

Trying to think back to physics, isn't weight a measure of pressure (as opposed to mass - a measure of the "stuff" inside an object)?

Then you must move the club in a way to maintain this initial pressure (or else there is no way you can maintain control of the club - the club then dictates movement). I think this is how the hands are sensors, how they dictate body movement - they know to maintain the pressure and will instruct the body to move in a way that keeps the pressure (for example, if the right hip is in the way, blocking hand movement, pressure can't be maintained, educated hands that feel pressure tell the hip to get the heck out of the way).

Loading #3 Pressure Point and its resistence to directional change is Clubhead Lag PRESSURE. Pull a Mop- Drag. Over come its resistence to create Pressure to move it. Clutch and squeeze the mop handle as hard and as tight as you want- it doesn't have Lag pressure- a tight grip, yes, Lag pressure- none. It has to change direction. The Down Swing- if if you are a Swinger- pull.

The Hands do not create pressure- they feel and monitor it. The Hands do not move it. They are MOVED. They are moved by the power accumulators from Start Down.

How and when do the Hands feel pressure that says the right hip is in the way and "blocking hand movement"?

If you pick up a mop, hold it (don't move it) so the handle is parallel to the ground, the weight of the mop head is most certainly pulling on the handle (down) The hands can sense this pressure. There is a droop in the handle. Read section titled "Loading the Lag" In just one example, (drag loading), it is written that club head lag is established by throwing the club against the pressure point. NO change of direction there. Even before its resistance to change, there is clubhead lag, that creates pressure on the hands.

When the hands are moved (IN AGREEMENT), more pressure can be created (thus distance control in "5 yard increments."

When -The hands feel the pressure when INITIAL clubhead lag pressure is established. See "Loading the Lag."

How - through feel (nerves). Get a fishing pole. tie a weight on instead of bait. you can feel the pressure of this weight in your hands. No movement needed.
PULL A MOP - HECK YES. If you don't pull a mop you will certainly lose the INITIAL clubhead lag pressure. If you want to splash someone with a bunch of water, go ahead create more pressure. By maintaining clubhead lag, you have the ability to direct the club on plane and you do not violate the law of the flail - direction and thrust.

"Resistance to directional change" This resistance is there in the mop and the
clubhead when the items are held up independent of any movement (just there - inert) "create pressure to move it" You are simply creating more pressure ( not initial club head lag pressure). Look at the picture of clubhead lag in the book. It is just there, no movement needed to create initial pressure. That is how the hands can moniter from the top.

You could move the right hip without dictation from the hands. But per 5-0 this would be pivot controlled hands. As stated in the book, this method will work, but you risk precision.

Interesting mention of tight grip. That's why the common advice of a "loose grip" can be harmful. Severe reduction in the chance of your computer registering initial club head lag. Didn't Kelley say club head lag is elusive? I know the secret of golf. You have got to detect the pressure in your hands and maintain it (by driving the hands).

Dude- put the mop head on the floor. It is the feel of dragging a mop on a floor to feel lag pressure- not holding it outward in a carry. Resisting the change in inertia.

All lag pressure is from change of direction- even 'throwing’- it is a swingers load of the wrist cock. Then it changes direction- and like a crash test dummy wanting to go through the car window- that #3pp resists the downward pull against the shaft- LAG PRESSURE is born. Come on guy! I’m not bullsheeting you.

Second- your Hands are monitoring too many wrong things. They do not monitor the pivot – they are NO pivot components in section eight or in 12-3-0 for that very reason.


“You could move the right hip without dictation from the hands. But per 5-0 this would be pivot controlled hands. As stated in the book, this method will work, but you risk precision.” I give up.
My Hands trained the hip to move- as I said -the Hands do not need to micro-manage or monitor the pivot. Train it and move on. Let the Hands monitor what is important- the Plane line, Hand Path, its Pressure Points, an Aiming Point, Roll line Prep, etc- go read the checklist, 12-3-0, 45 things to monitor- not one is the pivot.

Hands do not monitor the pivot. They monitor their primary task.


No grip is loose- nor restrictive. My point that you failed to see was that you can clutch or squeeze as hard as you want and it will NOT produce Lag pressure. None what so ever.

Nice one Mike.I didn't have time to get into detail earlier but you summed it up in your own inimitable way -LAG is LAG ...Weight is - Weight:sleepy:

If those arguing about what starts the downswing could agree on what ends the backswing, then I think I could enter into the fray. It would also help if those arguing about when the downswing starts would agree as to when the backswing ends.

swingers only??
 

Can a hitter play, too? :grin:

A Hitter stops at the TOP with Single Wrist Action, 10-18-C-2 and a Swinger stops at the END with Standard Wrist Action, 10-18-A.

Top is where the Hands are shoulder high ( or slightly above) and ON PLANE- Power Package assembled. This is where a Hitter will load #3 pressure point BEHIND the shaft on Start Down. The 10-18-C Single Wrist Action, shoulder turn and Checkrein Action of Extensor Action comes to a halt. Load and Drive Downward.

End is when the stroke for a Swinger goes past Top with a Standard Wrist Action, 10-18-A, a swinger's start up swivel and fully assembly power package waiting for 7-19-C.

Only with a 5 iron, sand wedge and a putter. :)

oh and return 6 cans of beer- empty. :laughing1

New Perspectives
 

Love ya, Coop. Keep'em comin!

:3gears:

Tension in the Feet on the downstroke
 

Feel the load on the feet when starting down with the right forearm per the last paragraph on 7-17.

DG

Here is where my fog is: (not saying I'm right,etc but better than saying "I think" or "in my opinion" every sentence).

From dictionary.com:
weight: Physics. the force that gravitation exerts upon a body, equal to the mass of the body times the local acceleration of gravity.

So in physics weight is force, or pressure that can be sensed.

Kelley does describe club head lag pressure as a careful nursing of clubhead feel. The main thing that comes from lag pressure is the ability to feel the club head. I'm not sure how to reconcile club head lag pressure (strict definition) with the force that gravitation exerts upon the clubhead (at top).
Regardless, both "situations" produce force which the hands most certainly can feel. The hands now have club head feel. Then they do what is needed not to lose the sensed pressure (clubhead lag pressure is "always loading" - feel the wet mop head through impact). Including telling the body to make the necessary movements not to lose club head feel.

Trained Trusted and Ignored.
 

No- this is not a "swing the clubhead- feel the clubhead golf swing." You do not hit the ball with the clubhead- you hit the ball with your Hands- the pressure points in your Hands. Clubhead LAG Pressure is in the hands. Clubhead lag Pressure is not in the clubhead, either. And no- its weight unless change resistant- is neither Lag or Lag pressure.

I have tried to explain TGM concepts that are Hands Controlled Pivot but you only want the Swing the Clubhead/dance with the club type of stroke. The pivot works as trained- independently, intuitively, instinctively, and automatically. Trained, trusted and ignored by the Hands.

If you watch this video clip:

http://www.lynnblakegolf.com/gallery.../509/LBJH3.wmv

If you watch the last third of the clip, you will see Lynn Blake demonstrated the Start Down Waggle as he explains the start down sequence- Hip slide- Instant Acceleration and no self moving Hands (at that point of the stroke). You will see how the pivot sets the hands On Plane- not off, how the hip turn, sets up the right shoulder and right arm On Plane- not off.
But you will see pivot control hands because you want a Hands that Slave a Pivot. Nagging Hands. You feel better with a Hands in motion and let the body turn when needed.

This is how a 12-1-0 or 12-2-0 Golfing Machine G.O.L.F. Stroke works with well Educated Hands controlling the stroke and pivot.

Good luck.

I didn't realise we were arguing about what starts the downswing.
I was talking about the difference between the weight of the club (motionless) at the top ,and lag pressure.

Hmmmmm
 

Speaking in absolutes and recommending videos.....interesting.

10-19-C (first sentence) "Lag Loading (Clubhead Feel)." I totally agree you hit the ball with the hands. Club head feel is what enables you to to so, because in reality, the club head is what strikes the ball. There has to be a connection with the hands and the clubhead. "its weight unless change resistant" I don't understand this. Just thinking - I believe all weight (force) is change risistant. If this is not a feel the club head swing - how do you direct the clubhead with the hands? Your hands must sense something to direct.

The pressure in your hands is a direct result of what is happening with the clubhead when you make certain movements (drive your hands or make movements that stop the driving of your hands). In other words, the driving of your hands causes the RESULTING ACTION of the club head to transmit pressure that is sensed in the hands. Club head lag pressure is not sensing the driving of your hands (and the hands are driven by accum), but sensing the clubhead via your hands.

6-C-2 CLUBHEAD LAG

"It can be any one or any combination of pressure points selected to Sense CLUBHEAD Acceleration rate and direction" Use Clubhead lag to feel the clubhead.

Also I think there is something to the fact that the glossery does not state, in its definition of Clubhead lag, "resistance of inertia to change in direction", but rather just and only "resistance of inertia to change" (direction and acceleration).

6-C-2-0 Picture Club head at top of swing. per caption "Clubhead lag" (established)

I don't think an independent pivot is 12-1 or 12-2. I believe the hands by sensed pressure, dictate to the pivot (5-0). Thae hands are, by far, are the most reliable parts of the body, when it comes to maintaining a precise hand relationship to the plane line.

As you pretty much stated, no changing each other. Thanks for the replies. If you haven't changed my thinking, it has given me reason to go back to the book in detail - always good.

That's the beauty of The Golfing Machine - Kelley tells us exactly how to feel the clubhead (through the Clubhead Lag Pressure Point) which is associated with "all over control" 7-19.

I don't think Kelley was at odds with greats like Ernest Jones and Percy Boomer.

No he wasn't. Certainly not Boomer.

DG- not absolutes, just trying to explain TGM 12-1-0 and 12-2-0. Yoda and Hull do a great job. You cannot find this information of Tomesello's video. He doesn't pull. Even a Hitter was a strong 'twitch' pull to set up the hands.


Im done trying to explain the differeence between weight and Lag. Swing the clubhead, SEC

And if you watch that video- you will not believe what you see. Your Hands are not as educated as you think if they need to micro manage a pivot. A correct take-away requires a turn. A down stroke requires a turn. And the Hands do NOT move themsleves at the very start- if they do they are way to active and might nopt find On PLANE by themselves. If they don't move themselves- what does?

Take starting at impact fix. Cetainly the hands don't move themselves at the start. (they are frozen) Elbow, forearms guided by the brain to the nerves in the hands - hands knowing all along that the plane line must be traced. Body then responds.
There is no "muscle memory" in the hips that enables them to correctly turn in a precise fashion (or in shoulders, or in any part of any human).

That's just it with the hands controlled pivot. Do you move with brain attention to the hands or the hips or the shoulders? You can hit the ball by doing both. What method will be more precise? There is a reason why you do most everything in life through your hands.

I think i have it reconciled. Gravity, in a similar fashion to force exerted against the club (a force that is different from club head lag pressure) though Pressure points (for hand movement, resulting in club movement), is exterted against the clubhead. This is a change to the inert club head. The result of this change is pressure that is sensed by the hands. You may obtain clubhead feel through this pressure. Maintain it and create more by continuing to change, or drive the club head by moving the hands (as stated above, hand movement said knowing hands are indeed moved by pressure from accumulators) and allow the hands to sense it.

Again- not a feel the clubhead swing the clubhead thing with TGM Educated Hands. I only have an INTUITIVE sense of the clubhead because I monitor Pressure Points and maintain my Flying Wedges ON PLANE. I never feel its WEIGHT because I"m cranking. But my Hands know everything. That is the only feel I need. Don't spend so much time feeling DEAD weight and learn to mash down on the ball with your spent Power Package.

You really have this whole hand pressure accumulator thing a bit azz backwards. Hands are clamps to hold the club with the ability to monitor three pressure points. If you want to flatten the right wrist, have a real nice throw-Away flip and bust up your Flying Wedges then push against this pressure with any of the accumultors. Power flows from the accumulators. If you are a Swinger- Throw Accumultors 4, 2, and 3. Throw -OUT. Throw with a geometrically correct Left Hip Slide that allows the right shoulder to deliver the Load Power Package correctly Down plane into Impact.
Or, Feel the clubhead's dead weight and dance with the shaft.

Didn't watch the video, oh well.

A well trained pivot allows the hands to do what is important. Go to the ball.


You say the Hands know the line to trace- then the Body responds. When does it respond- after the Hands move on their own or after the pivot starts or when?

I'm a piece of sheet. Swing the clubhead dude.

How are you monitering Pressure? What pressure are you monitering?
7-19 "Correct club head Lag pressure "Feel" constant loading constant direction. Interesting mention of flattening right wrist (out of left field)..
Again 7-19 Incorrect Clubhead lag pressure "feel" (read SENSING BY THE Hands) does not set up steady driving pressure....but THROWING pressure, guaranteeing Clubhead Trowaway" (and resulting flattening of right wrist). You have to constantly feel it, or you are risking throw away, losing clubhead control.

I know you will vehemently deny, but I'll suggest your mind hasn't completely abandoned the incorrect idea that clubhead lag pressure is driving the hands in order to keep them in front of the club head. I know you have written it is not just keeping the hands in front of the clubhead. Learning to mash down on the ball is release of accumualtors. How do you direct the force to be released by accumulators? Control the force? By paying constant attention to club head lag pressure(in the end, remember, it is the shaft and the clubhead have to on plane - so you have to be able to control this - most precise control is by hands). How do you learn not to throw the force away? By learning that you have maintained clubhead lag pressure (through constant sensing, not losing feel)

Hands driven by pressure produced by power accumulators (leading to hands in front of club head) is not clubhead lag pressure. Driving the hands does produce a change in the clubhead. Direction OR (note or) acceleration can be the change. The hands feel the club head by sensing the pressure produced by this change. This is the only way in the world you can hit the ball with hands (a connection to the clubhead).

I do feel the club head so I can control direction and acceleration.

"Don't spend so much time feeling DEAD weight and learn to mash down on the ball with your spent Power Package." Over the top waiting to happen.

You must accept clubhead lag pressure and continue to feel it. For a while, don't think of clubhead lag pressure as scientific term. He said it is the "Secret to Golf". It's pressure or force. Easy enough. Why would you want to have this pressure? What are you trying to do with this pressure?
Per 6-C-2-0 you are sensing CLUBHEAD acceleration rate and direction.
And you'd like to direct premium attention to smashing down on the ball with a spent power package? Maybe a smashing down on the ball while first having the ability to control acceleration rate and direction.

How does the education of a golfer come about? By being a able to hit the ball with the hands, by knowing when he's done so and when he hasn't. Only through clubhead feel.

You're thinking that I have it backwards is why it is important to study how clubhead lag pressure is established, to study the definition (change - change in direction or acceleration), and to study when it is established. Understand the why the 6-C-2-0 picture is correct as is (at top with clubhead lag). Driving of hands - you are able to maintain ESTABLISHED clubhead lag pressure, or clubhead feel.

Really, really. I'm not trying to argue. This has been a very, very good discussion. Obviously, I know you know a lot of TGM. I've done my fair share of study and memorizing this site. I don't think my tone (or didn't intend) to warrent "dude" and guilt trips "I'm a piece of sheet".
It is definitely not "Tomasello only" for me. I'm very on board with what the professionals on this site say.
I'm not sold on the uncocking of the right forearm terminology. What I can say with certainty is that from the top, the hands know the line they must trace - through training - obviously the hands screw up at times, or the pivot is faulty (due to pivot control) and screw up the hands. At the least, the hands' intent or knowing the line they must trace causes the hip slide. I'd say focus your mind on hand plane line tracing and let the hips respond.

Why wouldn't you train the pivot? Train it, get it ready to respond to the hands ( maybe the term is "oil it up").

I believe the pivot needs to be trained first before you learn a hand-controlled swing. Tracing the plane line with the hands will not automatically cause the hips to slide. You can trace a plane line with the arms moving from the shoulders only and no pivot.

Tomasello covers the pivot in his first Australian video.

If you're not sold on the uncocking of the right forearm from the top.....do you really understand longitudinal acceleration.

What is the dictionary definition of longitudinal that best describes its application to the golf swing?

DG

Mike,

Above is another pot shot on Tomasello. Do you really believe the videos of Tommy are the complete Tomasello on TGM? NO FRICKIN WAY. At the very least, Tommy had three complete schools to offer students on TGM. Swinging school, Hitting School, and advanced school (applying swinging and hitting to the course). For me, that approach makes the most sense. I believe that's where Tommy's real genius came into play. The vision of a hitting and swinging approach to the game. MAXIMUM TGM with the most efficient and full power stroke patterns in the book. Applying full power and accuracy. As the only Taylor Made slogan use to go...."DON'T HOLD BACK".

DG

The Blind Men and the Elephant
 

DG - If you have more material from Tom than what has been hosted on this site, it might be helpful to share it as well. We only have a limited view on what you've shared thus far.

6B is not taking potshots at Tom. I think he has a high level of respect.

Hard to talk about the whole elephant when all we can see is the trunk.

I would be happy to open up a spot for an MP3 of the tape or any other materials.
I think there is a lot more to Tommy than what meets the eye.:)

Fog on this one.
Per 5-0 ..."but especially during Start down maintain clubhead lag relationship to plane line (by tracing with hands) - not to the body. That (referring to previous description) - failure to clear the Right Hip (Roundhouse) can initiate almost every alignment disruption" He's saying trace the plane line so as to ensure a clearing to the right hip. If you trace a plane line with the arms moving from the shoulders only and no pivot, you are not going to the top, the right hip is never getting in the way. No need for hip to clear. Like basic motion. If you trace a plane line on a full swing, you have to clear the hips or you can't trace the plane line (back up and in, down, out, forward - shoulders can't do this and not have the hips move).

The two series of tapes- the Aussie set and the three from Lee, do not speak of 12-1-0 or 12-2-0. Neither talk about Start down with a hip moption then turn. The Blake-Hull video talks about the Start Down at the end of discussion about Acquired Motion.

Tomesallo is trained in the TGM but does not on those tapes deal with 12-1-0 or 12-2-0, so how can I recommend or advise someone to watch something that is not covering the topic. Pot shot- Hardly. Paranoia (yours)- certainly.

TT used many TGM ideas when he developed his pattern. So did Ben Doyle (4 barrel) and others. GREAT. But I can only speak for the two Homer laid out. Inferior, I know, but WTF- I’ll stick with them, okay? So when I talk about TT pattern- which I don’t but if I do and I am wrong- correct me. But if I speak about Homer’s and I am wrong- TT is not the correction about those strokes. When it comes to TT stroke pattern as taught to you on the three days in SC- nobody knows it better, but honestly, a disclaimer about your posts would have saved many aggravation over the years.

There is no way I can explain Pivot or Lag Pressure any better to anyone. Maybe I missed the crux of it all. All my workshops notes, printed posts from TGM forums, long gone, Homer's book and notes and some audio on my iPod (me- geek) and everything yoda ever posted, all leads me to believe that I'm not too far off center with what I wrote.

Watch Lynn and Jeff at Start Down at the end of Acquired Motion video. What is are to see is the difference between Motion and Action. What may appear as a pivot controlled stroke is anything but.

When I first started to play golf- I could not take a good practice swing. You know, the nice stroke brushing the turf in the same spot before the shot. No control of the club – “unprincipled” as Ben would say. I had a pure Pivot control over my Hands. I could steer the club with the hands to the ball when I had to take my shot. But handsy recovery is not Educated Hands. In fact Educated hands can be quite lazy after they train the ‘mule.’

Thanks Bagger- I'm done. Everyone drive home safe.

Tom Tomasello taught 12-1-0 and 12-2-0 (period)...I would love to have you say what you just said to Tom Tomasello in person, I know you wouldn't have the GUTS. What an opportunist!!! Another sad day for TGM.


DG

Tom Tomasello taught 12-1-0 and 12-2-0 (period).....Please provide us with all 24 stroke components for both of Tommy's swinging and hitting motion if he didn't teach 12-1-0 and 12-2-0. I believe that would provide the forum with much DEBATE!!!

And what was it exactly that has caused so much grief??? Mike, you seem to be the only one having a problem with TT.

It's amazing you wouldn't know it by the number of PM's that I get, that anyone is having a problem.

DG

How do you explain?
 

If what Tomasello taught is such a problem. How do explain the last comment in the Tomasello Golf Illustrated interview....after Tommy just got through explaining the exact Magic of the Right Forearm approach that he taught me for swinging (with delayed hip action no less)....

GI: How long before a student makes significant improvement?

Tomasello: I can give documented examples of golfers with no previous record of success who started winning tournaments at various levels almost immediately. But the learning is never-ending. The amount of time and dedication the golfer puts in determines how far he or she can go.

DG

And there you have it!

Good stuff guys and good thread.

DG or anyone else with hands on experience with Tom, my offer will stand if you would ever like to share more Tomasello material.

Thanks,

DG: Your call to action has not gone unnoticed. I'll get around to it, but right now, my TGM brain is worn out trying to give my opinion that there is not some wide chasm between the thoughts of Tomasello, Blake, and Evershed on the hand controlled pivot.

It is not about Tomasello, Blake, or Evershed. It is about Homer Kelley and The Golfing Machine. Of the three, Lynn Blake and The Golfing Machine is not only as close to Homer Kelley but is Homer Kelley's The Golfing Machine.

????????

I'm sorry, but my post specifically mentioned my opinion on others' thoughts related to the idea of the hand controlled pivot. In my opinion, your declaration in not needed (at least don't include my post in your declaration).
How do you know that I, too , don't believe Lynn's teachings are The Golfing Machine? (including my post in your declaration sure makes a suggestion). All I can say, kindly, is at least be open to the fact that you, yourself, might need to check your understanding of some items in The Golfing Machine. (like 1st paragraph chapter 4 - all over importance of clubhead feel.) In other words, your understanding, as of now, might be a little different (even a little less correct) than that of the professionals on this site. If you don't want to read the above, please don't put my posts in your declarations. Thanks.