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-   -   Maximum Compression (http://www.lynnblakegolf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7826)

MizunoJoe 11-29-2011 11:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by O.B.Left (Post 88326)
That makes sense MJ .....thanks. Effective though Rolling is, its not a little bat or flipper, lever deal per say. Its more about optimal contact. Keeping the point of contact between ball and face intact "as if welded together", no slips or wobbles except for that due to club face loft.

Would you agree? If so what does that do to Hogan's "little bat" or A.J.s "da bat" ? It'd still work but not for the reasons described I guess. Interesting.

Face roll just changes the attitude of the face, I don't see how it could keep contact intact or weld the ball and face.

Ah ha! Now I understand Yoda's reference to "da bat"! :laughing9

whip 11-29-2011 12:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MizunoJoe (Post 88350)
Face roll just changes the attitude of the face, I don't see how it could keep contact intact or weld the ball and face.

Ah ha! Now I understand Yoda's reference to "da bat"! :laughing9

This the subject we are referring to sustaining the line of compression, if you use angled hinge it produces an uncentered motion inducing compression leakage, keeping the ball in line with it's original contact point is certainly possible! And would in effect weld the ball and face at least momentarily and not literally. I'm not sold on attitude of the face....

MizunoJoe 11-29-2011 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by whip (Post 88341)
I admit I'm not sure if this has been addressed but why would we assume the same club head speed at separation? because this is not possible... Regardless of your assumptions to try and eliminate the variables, The factors that will provide maximum compression are....



A. Hinge action, a closing only club face (dual horizontal) will provide maximum compression whereas as vertical and angled will produce lay back therefore diverting the force losing compression comparatively

B. In order to sustain the line of compression the original contact point of face and ball must remain in contact through the entire impact interval ( which relates to hinge action) this is possible only if the motion or arc is uniform, Therefore there must be a perfectly centered action.

C. Any deceleration of the club unrelated to the slowing effect of two objects colliding. Such as bending the left wrist ( law of the flail) or any other mechanical inefficiency regardless of whether the sweetspot was hit or not will change the compression and separation speed

In other words... Hit that ball on the sweet spot with maximum separation speed by executing a horizontal hinge with a flat left wrist and a centered action

Secondly........



Please explain your reasoning. Do you mean to say that it implies that it rotates around the hosel because the handle of the baseball bat is at one end? Why does attaching a shaft to a little bat imply the face is rotating around the hosel? Does the little bat not also have a longitudinal center attached to a shaft? of course it does... If the little bat is attached to the shaft through the sweet spot then it would still be rotating around the sweetspot it's just that the hosel and sweetspot are in line

The term "bat" implies the sweetspot is given added velocity by face rotation, which doesn't happen because the sweetspot is the center of the face rotation.

whip 11-29-2011 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MizunoJoe (Post 88352)
The term "bat" implies the sweetspot is given added velocity by face rotation, which doesn't happen because the sweetspot is the center of the face rotation.

The word bat does not imply that to me. if the point of the bat is to show you that a closing only club face produces more compression than one that does not... it is absolutely correct! It's not adding velocity to the sweetspot but rather the golf ball ( not sure velocity is the right word) I think there is nothing wrong with the little bat attached to the shaft. The horizontal hinge is JUST like a baseball bat because baseball is on a horizontal plane! Or at least ver close to it. The bat is a closing door without the distraction of the lofted face, just as the horizontal hinge is a closing door in golf we are not on a horizontal plane thus requiring the dual horizontal hinge

O.B.Left 11-29-2011 03:02 PM

Get Rhythm ....
 
Im not sure what Hogan had to say about the little bat exactly (does anyone have the Nick Seitz interview ?) or A.J. Bonar's "da bat" for that matter either (apart from what I gleaned after wading through the "golf dude in the basement" videos waiting for him to eventually cough it up.... don't say I didn't warn you if you try to find this on line. Its pretty funny but its really long).

Assuming the sweetspot does revolve around the shaft practically then the face would not be a lever I imagine. However the bit about Horizontal welding the point of contact together makes sense to me and my hands. But here's a question .... wouldn't the increased club head travel associated with Horizontal Hinging (assuming some #3 angle of course) increase the club head speed for any given hand speed?


PS If you imagine the face as a little bat you would tend to roll it ........but only Homer's Hinge Action concept has the precise alignments necessary to help you determine how much is too much or too little. But you gotta get Rhythm, gotta gotta gotta.

MizunoJoe 11-29-2011 08:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by whip (Post 88353)
The word bat does not imply that to me. if the point of the bat is to show you that a closing only club face produces more compression than one that does not... it is absolutely correct! It's not adding velocity to the sweetspot but rather the golf ball ( not sure velocity is the right word) I think there is nothing wrong with the little bat attached to the shaft. The horizontal hinge is JUST like a baseball bat because baseball is on a horizontal plane! Or at least ver close to it. The bat is a closing door without the distraction of the lofted face, just as the horizontal hinge is a closing door in golf we are not on a horizontal plane thus requiring the dual horizontal hinge

The club face is the "little end" of a big bat, but that doesn't make it a little bat, unless you choked down all the way to the hosel! :laughing9

Horizontal Hinging gives more compression because it eliminates the layback component of Angled Hinging.

Yoda 11-29-2011 08:51 PM

The Messenger
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MizunoJoe (Post 88372)

The club face is the "little end" of a big bat, but that doesn't make it a little bat, unless you choked down all the way to the hosel! :laughing9

[Bold emphasis by Yoda.]

MizunoJoe,

I luv ya, man, but at Lynn Blake Golf, we never "choke down". Or up!

Hasta la vista Johnny Miller!

:laughing9

Instead, we only . . .

Grip down.

To my Certified Instructors, this is an important point:

"Grip down" . . .

NOT . . .

"Choke up".

Remember, The Computer is always listening.

And . . .

Complying.

:salut:

MizunoJoe 11-29-2011 08:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by O.B.Left (Post 88356)
But here's a question .... wouldn't the increased club head travel associated with Horizontal Hinging (assuming some #3 angle of course) increase the club head speed for any given hand speed?
.

Yes, recall Yoda talking about Larry Nelson's "fastest move in golf" ?

Delivery Line Roll Prep.

MizunoJoe 11-29-2011 09:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yoda (Post 88373)
MizunoJoe,

I luv ya, man, but at Lynn Blake Golf, we never "choke". Down or up!

Hasta la vista Johnny Miller!

Instead, we only . . .

Grip down.

:laughing9

Serious Note to instructors: This is an important little point, guys, one that no doubt will spawn its detractors.

For me . . .

Grip down is the preferred alternative to . . .

Choke up.

Remember, the Computer is always listening.

And . . .

Complying.

:salut:

Yoda - In addition, using the word "choke" in any context on a golf forum is really bad form! :-#

Yoda 11-29-2011 09:15 PM

Major Champion Mano-O-Mano
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MizunoJoe (Post 88374)
Yes, recall Yoda talking about Larry Nelson's "fastest move in golf" ?

Delivery Line Roll Prep.

I remember as if it were yesterday, MJ . . .

Larry Nelson was the dominant Ryder Cupper of his day (9-0 in his first two Cups) and three-times Major Champion (one of only three men to win three majors in the 1980s).

As we talked on the Atlanta CC practice tee, he balled his left and right fists in front of him -- no club and with his forearms level to the ground. Then, he turned both fists 90 degrees to the right. Finally, he twisted his balled left fist 'hard left', leaving his right wrist in place. He looked me in the eye, and said . . .

"Fastest move in golf."

He felt there was a "piece of string" between the two fists, and his object through impact was to "break the string" with his left hand.

There were no launch monitors then. Today's 'new breed' and their 'name' brands were a decade or two away. Meanwhile, great athletes were hitting great golf shots and performing 72-hole scoring miracles.

Whatever, this is what my friend Larry Nelson had to say . . .

'Way back when.'

:salut:

whip 11-29-2011 09:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MizunoJoe (Post 88372)
The club face is the "little end" of a big bat, but that doesn't make it a little bat, unless you choked down all the way to the hosel! :laughing9

Horizontal Hinging gives more compression because it eliminates the layback component of Angled Hinging.

Because angled hinge is an uncentered motion it loses compression compared to the uniform arc of the dual horizontal hinge. The angled hinge is not "welded" to the face, to the point of contact like the dual horizontal hinge.


one of the primary concepts of the golfing machine is to monitor the clubhead and clubface through the hands, we guide the motion through our Hands because the clubface will do accordingly. As if the clubface were the hands...similar to gripping down to the face..... How ever your hand rotates, that little bat does accordingly....

12 piece bucket 11-30-2011 11:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MizunoJoe (Post 88320)
The clubface is not a little bat, which implies the face is rotating around the hosel. :nono:

Is that what happens with a bat though?

looks like it is rotating about a center point not the handle end here...wouldn't want to be this ump

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wCX_XlRYYDo

MizunoJoe 11-30-2011 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by whip (Post 88377)
How ever your hand rotates, that little bat does accordingly....

Yes, however the "little bat" is really a "little propeller" which spins around the line from #3PP through the sweetspot. :happy3:

MizunoJoe 11-30-2011 03:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 12 piece bucket (Post 88394)
Is that what happens with a bat though?

looks like it is rotating about a center point not the handle end here...wouldn't want to be this ump

Only if you don't let go of it like Delmon. :laughing9

whip 11-30-2011 03:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MizunoJoe (Post 88409)
Yes, however the "little bat" is really a "little propeller" which spins around the line from #3PP through the sweetspot. :happy3:

How does this differ from a golf club?

HungryBear 11-30-2011 03:34 PM

How bout the bat lies flat against a vertical plane through the left shoulder?

HB

MizunoJoe 11-30-2011 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by whip (Post 88411)
How does this differ from a golf club?

It doesn't, the whole club spins around that line. ](*,)

MizunoJoe 11-30-2011 04:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HungryBear (Post 88412)
How bout the bat lies flat against a vertical plane through the left shoulder?

HB

The leading edge of the face does, but it's still not a bat, because if you turn the LFW, you're rotating the whole club, including the sweetspot. The clubhead is just the last short piece of the long bat.

AJ thinks that the clubface rotates around the shaft, which is why he calls it "da bat". Moreover he thinks that the rotation of the clubface speeds up the sweetspot. I thought so too, until HK pointed out that it's actually the shaft that rotates around the sweetspot. The only way to make the sweetspot go faster is to swing faster or drive harder, and no amount of increase in rotational toe speed around the sweetspot will add to it, because the hosel is backing up as fast as the toe is going forward.

Yoda 11-30-2011 08:07 PM

Round and Round We Go
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MizunoJoe (Post 88414)

. . . HK pointed out that it's actually the shaft that rotates around the sweetspot.

Homer Kelley was the first in history to identify and articulate this phenomenon. Thirty years ago next January, he explained it to me personally. For that I am grateful.

On the lesson tee now almost every day, I am more aware than ever of its importance. Consciously or subconsciously, the higher-handicap golfer does not allow the natural rotation to occur. Hence, Golf's #1 Snare: Steering (3-F-7-A).

I demonstrate the basic concept two ways. First, using my big club and a plumb bob. Then, with the aid of alignment rods, the interaction between the Sweetspot, the Clubshaft, and their respective Planes.

If I can scare up some help this weekend, I'll do a video.

:-)

HungryBear 11-30-2011 09:02 PM

Think
 
Rhythm !!!!

O.B.Left 12-01-2011 12:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HungryBear (Post 88421)
Rhythm !!!!

I second that.

KevCarter 12-01-2011 09:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yoda (Post 88419)
Homer Kelley was the first in history to identify and articulate this phenomenon. Thirty years ago next January, he explained it to me personally. For that I am grateful.

On the lesson tee now almost every day, I am more aware than ever of its importance. Consciously or subconsciously, the higher-handicap golfer does not allow the natural rotation to occur. Hence, Golf's #1 Snare: Steering (3-F-7-A).

I demonstrate the basic concept two ways. First, using my big club and a plumb bob. Then, with the aid of alignment rods, the interaction between the Sweetspot, the Clubshaft, and their respective Planes.

If I can scare up some help this weekend, I'll do a video.

:-)

I would LOVE to see that video!

There is a lot of talk about science and release, but the way you teach the finish swivel has been a huge help in my world, and has saved a lot of my students from steering. I'll never forget working with our friend Dodger on it right after you taught me. HUGE! I think clearing a little more of the fog with a video on the club face would be wonderful.

Thanks!
Kevin

dodger 12-01-2011 11:21 AM

What a lesson that was. In minutes Kevin had me hitting high draws into a wind coming right at us. I went from a guy who hit pushes, shanks and quack hooks to a guy that actually hit some golf shots with compression. Now when I practice, the first thing I hit is a sand wedge, working on 12-3 and the finish swivel. It usually gets me right where I need to be. Unfortunately I have five months to go before I step on another golf course. Lots to work on in the basement.

KevCarter 12-01-2011 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dodger (Post 88439)
What a lesson that was. In minutes Kevin had me hitting high draws into a wind coming right at us. I went from a guy who hit pushes, shanks and quack hooks to a guy that actually hit some golf shots with compression. Now when I practice, the first thing I hit is a sand wedge, working on 12-3 and the finish swivel. It usually gets me right where I need to be. Unfortunately I have five months to go before I step on another golf course. Lots to work on in the basement.

That was a really fun lesson, but I'm still trying to forget the follow up when I brought out the Taly. :naughty: HaHa, I have wonderful success with that tool, but it sure made a mess with you that day. Oh well, we got it straightened out and learned there are horses for courses. :laughing9 :laughing9 :laughing9

Cheers Dodger! :salut:

Kevin

12 piece bucket 12-01-2011 11:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yoda (Post 88419)
Homer Kelley was the first in history to identify and articulate this phenomenon. Thirty years ago next January, he explained it to me personally. For that I am grateful.

On the lesson tee now almost every day, I am more aware than ever of its importance. Consciously or subconsciously, the higher-handicap golfer does not allow the natural rotation to occur. Hence, Golf's #1 Snare: Steering (3-F-7-A).

I demonstrate the basic concept two ways. First, using my big club and a plumb bob. Then, with the aid of alignment rods, the interaction between the Sweetspot, the Clubshaft, and their respective Planes.

If I can scare up some help this weekend, I'll do a video.

:-)

David Orr had a really cool club to show the LCOG....someone had drilled a hole in the sweetspot of an iron and attached a yellow string that ran up to the back side of the grip...it was cool.....Pretty illustrative.

KevCarter 12-01-2011 02:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 12 piece bucket (Post 88443)
David Orr had a really cool club to show the LCOG....someone had drilled a hole in the sweetspot of an iron and attached a yellow string that ran up to the back side of the grip...it was cool.....Pretty illustrative.

Bucket, that reminds me of a video by our friend Jeff Evans who also credits David Orr. Both friends of LBG. Good stuff! :salut:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AAWhtd8Vhs4

MizunoJoe 12-01-2011 05:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yoda (Post 88419)
Homer Kelley was the first in history to identify and articulate this phenomenon.

HK is the Copernicus of golf for showing us that the sweetspot is the sun! :sunny:

RickPinewild 01-06-2012 01:55 PM

Loc
 
The line of compression is one of the first things I read about when I began studying the "Golfing Machine by Homer Kelley". Ben Doyle mentions it at the end of the forward, Homer talks about it in Chapter 2-0 and explains what it is in 2-C-0. What I've always wondered was, how it is done?

I've seen many discussions in forums, blogs, videos, etc. All of the explanations I've heard refer to the straight line from the left shoulder to the club-head at impact. Straight left arm, flat left wrist, bent right wrist and forward leaning shaft. This is referred to as the line of compression. I would say that this is actually the alignment of compression.

This morning I woke up with this thought about sustaining the line of compression, "a bullet hole thru a baseball". As the club-head is moving thru the impact interval, it's true path direction is "ever changing on the plane", i.e. moving more and more to the left. The proper un-cocking of your left wrist during this interval will cause the club face to point more to the right. As the butt of the club raises during the un-cocking motion, the lie angle changes and the face points more to the right. These two alignments offset each other creating a straight line, kind of like changing angular force to linear force, thus sustaining the line of compression. The result would be a perfectly struck golf shot.

On a different note, maybe Congress could sustain their line of compression better if the left movers and the right movers could offset each other creating a perfect government! HaHa

12 piece bucket 01-06-2012 09:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RickPinewild (Post 89346)
I've seen many discussions in forums, blogs, videos, etc. All of the explanations I've heard refer to the straight line from the left shoulder to the club-head at impact. Straight left arm, flat left wrist, bent right wrist and forward leaning shaft. This is referred to as the line of compression. I would say that this is actually the alignment of compression.

Yeah the freakin' dude that wrote the forward to the books says that.....that ain't EVEN CLOSE!!!!! How do you mess that up???? It don't say that NO WHERE NEVER EVER NEVER EVER NEVER NEVER EVER in the book....good gravy what in the world is wrong with people...

The sweetspot is the bullet....from a definition standpoint it don't have squat to do with no arms no wrists or even no foward leaning shafts....the manipulation and sustaining may have something to do with the parts...but some dingdong showing a line running up the left arm is fundamentally out of his tree.
LINE OF COMPRESSION Example – bullet hole through a baseball
Mechanical – the line through center of that area from which material flows when displaced by a compressing force.
Golf – The direction of the Impact Force, as related to the various centerlines, for determining Ball Behavior
Uh dude....It ain't up his arm...it'd be down there on the mat...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cns3T...yer_detailpage

Test...failed.

Daryl 01-07-2012 03:27 AM

The Ball has a Center of Gravity. The Line of Compression does not pass through the Center of the Ball. Although the Center of Gravity of the Ball intersects the Center of Gravity of the Clubhead Orbit, the Inclined Striker will create an off-center Strike (Vertical Plane). All objects will (eventually) Rotate around their Center of Gravity.



Quote:

2-A RESILIENCE The response of the ball to different applications of force is the factor that determines how force must be applied to produce a desired result.

Resilience is the key factor in ball response. Neither a rock on a spoonful of clay will act the same as a golf ball. The ball is subjected to a violent deforming compression. The ball is actually distorted, not compressed – except for reduction of one dimension. Rubber is incompressible. Trapped air bubbles can be compressed – but not the rubber itself – it flows. It flows in two directions – but acts like a solid in the third. This third direction is the direction of the compressing force. The momentum of the violent return of flow after impact also distorts the ball by exceeding the normal dimension of the compressed point. The “kick” given to the ball by this action is an important factor in ball response. Roll of the ball on the face of an inclined striker does not account for all the action produced by such an impact, especially in imparting spin to the ball.
When the direction of the compressing force does not pass exactly through the center of the ball, a spin will be imparted to the ball. It will rotate on the plane of a line drawn form the line of compression to a parallel center line.

EC 01-07-2012 07:45 AM

Rhythm and more Rhythm
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by HungryBear (Post 88421)
Rhythm !!!!

Mr. Kelley said that had he understood rhythm from the outset, he would have never written the book!

EC

HungryBear 01-07-2012 01:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EC (Post 89362)
Mr. Kelley said that had he understood rhythm from the outset, he would have never written the book!

EC

Interesting. Is there a context to that HK statement?

HB

EC 01-09-2012 07:58 PM

HB,

Sorry for the delay. Mr. Kelley was addressing rhythm on a tape from one of his original masters' gatherings. I don't remember the specific context, but I AM SURE of hearing him say what I referenced before.

Take care,

EC

O.B.Left 01-10-2012 02:57 PM

I suspect Homer meant that had he understood Rhythm from the outset , his golf would have been far better. Giving him little or no reason to undertake his research.

innercityteacher 01-18-2012 03:13 PM

Help Mr. Minnesota Wizard!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by KevCarter (Post 88441)
That was a really fun lesson, but I'm still trying to forget the follow up when I brought out the Taly. :naughty: HaHa, I have wonderful success with that tool, but it sure made a mess with you that day. Oh well, we got it straightened out and learned there are horses for courses. :laughing9 :laughing9 :laughing9

Cheers Dodger! :salut:

Kevin

Hi Kevin. Sportsfans. :salut: I have been working on Hitting and watching Lynn's and Ted's videos. Their finish seems very unusual to me. (I have only worked on swinging with Lynn and we know what a reclamation program I have been.) It seems like the key to a forward swivel in a hitting motion is the flat left wrist maintaining it's shape as it is propelled through the stroke by the pistoning right elbow, The feel of the forward swivel is that of a two-handed forehand in tennis or like the angle of attack is like a sharper "U" or a cross between a "V" and "U."

Does that seem correct? :rolleyes:

ICT

KevCarter 01-19-2012 09:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by innercityteacher (Post 89589)
Hi Kevin. Sportsfans. :salut: I have been working on Hitting and watching Lynn's and Ted's videos. Their finish seems very unusual to me. (I have only worked on swinging with Lynn and we know what a reclamation program I have been.) It seems like the key to a forward swivel in a hitting motion is the flat left wrist maintaining it's shape as it is propelled through the stroke by the pistoning right elbow, The feel of the forward swivel is that of a two-handed forehand in tennis or like the angle of attack is like a sharper "U" or a cross between a "V" and "U."

Does that seem correct? :rolleyes:

ICT

That sounds a little steep to me Patrick. Are you trying to feel a really late (snap) release? Remember, YODA's finish is more than just the wrist alignments, remember his goal post drill? Very important feel for the release of the body.

Kevin

innercityteacher 01-21-2012 02:30 AM

Release of the body?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by KevCarter (Post 89598)
That sounds a little steep to me Patrick. Are you trying to feel a really late (snap) release? Remember, YODA's finish is more than just the wrist alignments, remember his goal post drill? Very important feel for the release of the body.

Kevin

Kevin, you are referring to the MacDonald drills of the hip leading the pivot first followed by the right elbow pistoning? Though if the snap would give me extra yards ala Sergio who am I to reject such a boon? :read:

ICT

KevCarter 01-21-2012 07:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by innercityteacher (Post 89627)
Kevin, you are referring to the MacDonald drills of the hip leading the pivot first followed by the right elbow pistoning? Though if the snap would give me extra yards ala Sergio who am I to reject such a boon? :read:

ICT

Nope, arms up trying to look like a goal post and turn to finish...

Remember, the swing happens in the blink of an eye. We can focus on address, top, and finish. Everything from top to finish happens from preparation and intent.

Kevin

dodger 01-23-2012 02:39 PM

Kevin, I figured out why I was shanking so bad with the Taly. Can you guess why? Now I wish I had'nt given the thing away.

KevCarter 01-23-2012 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dodger (Post 89688)
Kevin, I figured out why I was shanking so bad with the Taly. Can you guess why? Now I wish I had'nt given the thing away.



Steering? I'm anxious to here what you've discovered!

Kevin


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