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No_Mind,
Relax. You're using Ayn Rand? Got any hang-ups? |
no mind indeed
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And I am sure I don't need to tell you about potential energy in a kinetic system, and that the sorts of actions biomechanic is talking about create and release potential energy, converting it into kinetic energy through a chemical reaction, initiated by an electrical impulse. Newton would have no concerns that in creating a level of stretch between two points connected my muscular tissue that this creates a level of potential energy that is released and realised when the muscles contract. BTW this is in the same class as Homer teaches whereby the four power accumulators store potential energy. Quote:
Every golfer wastes the energy that is created when they push against the ground. biomechanic trains you to waste less of it. And that's the sort of conservation that I want in my swing. Quote:
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And I have seen the numbers that show how the different parts of my body accelarate and decelarate through the swing. And I have seen the numbers for a world number one golfer, renowned as possibly the best ballstriker ever. Not numbers from video pinched off the net. Numbers from a screening exactly the same as I got. I can see the accelaration of body parts and the clubshaft and the clubhead. I can see the decelaration (and yes Daryl, they decelarate after they pass line of sight). Biomechanic was able to show me exactly where I was throwing it away. How my bosy was trying to support a swing that was basically all arms. And his exercises have changed that enormously since then. Now I compress instead of scoop. Now I pivot to drive the swing instead of just to give my arms some support while they try and do all the work. Now I don't come away from the golf course or range with painful hips and back for days. That is why biomechanic says that he doesn't care about the theory. He's not here to educate you on why this stuff works. He's here to say that he has a way that will improve your zones (not just your pivot), imrpove your power delivery, and will make you a healthier golfer. I'm glad I listened. |
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Bioengine,
Question: I'm really curious and you probably know the answer. Lets say a Golfer weighs 180 lbs.
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The ball changes everything. One of Homers biggest revelations and the basis of much of his theory. He didnt steer dandelions in his yard but he did when confronted by a golf ball. Steering and Throw Away. I look like George Knudson in my yard........if only I could look that way in the presence of a ball. I have hundreds of video examples to prove it. Pathetic though they are. Homers advice , obtuse though it was, is very practical. Cheers. |
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Here is the mis conception about pressure plates. Weight has nothing to do with pressure plates. Allow me to explain. You have two forces normal force , which is your force going into the ground,This is your centre of mass (weight). Then you have shear forces working along the surface of the ground. Left foot forces, one is away from your left towards the target.the second is away from your toes. Right foot one force is away from the right foot,away from the target and the second is from your right heal. It's all about how your press into your left side to create ground reaction forces.The ability to press into your left side and foot and how well you do this is what creates an equal and opposite force reaction. The equal and opposite force reaction creates lower body stabilization and creates hip rotation cause your hips to turn left. The continuation of pressing in to your left side and also create stabilizing at impact and create hip deceleration. This allows your upper body to close. Predominately during the back swing good players with good lower body mechanics,centre of mass starts to press into their left side during their backswing. It's not about transfering weight this is a myth. It's your centre of mass moving into your left side and the ability to press into your left side. When people see pressure plate data and see pressure is moving to the left side they mistake this these forces being their weight. Not weight it's forces. So what happens every tries to transfer the weight. Not good. To achieve this your have to train your body how to create ground forces. We have done researching trying to physically trying to do it and we can't make it happen. |
Left , Right, Left, Right. Im going to ground force my way into the kitchen and get me another Molson.
Dont take this the wrong way though Bio. I do agree, basic though it is, it is the basis of golf motion. You cant pivot around a non loaded leg. Gotta get off the back foot. Dont hang back. Post up. Hit against a Firm left side etc etc. Left, right, left , right , left , right |
fo shiz
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I first discovered TGM and G.O.L.F. at ISeekGolf.com in Australia (my home). And what I discovered was wonderful. A terminology that was so much more precise. Some clear imperitives and why they are so important. And lots of information about how there are many many ways to hit a golf ball and the only difference between them is that some are generally more effective at lowering your score than others (if you get what I mean). I really like the concept of learning feel from mechanics and then repeating the feel to create the mechanics. But I found that it took me a lot of time, and that it was very easy to lose it again. And I struggle for the time. I also am not a natural when it comes to golf. I probably played my first game at 12. I'm now 38. It took me until I was about 26 to break 100. Then after going to the range and getting lessons I finally broke 90 about 6 years ago. And I've plateau'd since then. When bioengine first introduced me to what he did I was wary, because lets face it there is barely a web site you can get on to these days that doesn't have an ad saying "This is the secret to golf". But I asked lots of questions and he showed me what he did on a web conference. And where it spoke to me is that it said there is an optimal way for your body to work to swing a tool hard - golf club, tennis racquet, baseball bat, axe, whatever. There are ways that consistently deliver power in a way that moves the ball the way you want it to. And I thought that this was at least partly a reason why some people are just good at sports - because they have a good kinetic link. You know, there are people who go out and their first round they hit 95. So I know that I am not one of those people. Never been a natural at any sport. Golf was no exception (as you can see from my stats above). So here is someone saying they can analyse my movement patterns AND give me specific exercises to improve mine. And they are working. I don't know why. Some of them are, as bioengine calls them "silly little exercises". But today I completed them in about 25 minutes. I should do them 3 times a week, but I generally only do them twice. And three days ago I hit 9 out of 13 fairways and hit 8 GIR and another 4 that were just off. And I would have hit at least 5 drives that were 20-30 metres longer than my norm - 240-250m instead of 210-220m. So I'm very happy with results so far - after only 10 weeks! |
anybody?
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Most who practice to not hit the deck will do struggle to make low point when it counts.
Not saying you do not. Beware ingrained practice is hard to shift unless its correct practice of ball striking routines. If you did this on grass, I assume the club would be "divoting". |
divots r us!
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Chuck Evans: Years ago, when we first met, I was in Moe’s group playing in a tournament in the Florida “winter tour series”. After playing together in a couple of these events I said to Moe, “teach me how to swing like you”. He replied, “swing like you, not like Moe”.
It took me a few years to fully comprehend what he meant. I first thought he was politely telling me to take a hike and go figure it out for myself, then I realised that what he actually meant, was no one can completely duplicate the motion of another player. We all have certain restrictions in our strokes and what one player can do physically or mentally another player may not. This is evident today with teachers attempting to teach Moe’s procedure. There have been no players to date that have had the success of Moe Norman! There are no players that have won any tour events using Moe’s procedure because they cannot duplicate precisely what he did. There are players that say they use Moe’s procedure but none of them actually do. They use variations of what they think Moe did. People have tried to emulate Hogan, Nicklaus, Tiger, Snead, Nelson, and a host of others but they will all fail. The only way a player can exactly duplicate another player is to have: The same physical structure and flexibility The same mind set The same personality style This surely relates to biomechanics and the notion that there is a 'best way' for all of us to golf our ball. |
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I think what I am doing based on biomechanics fits exactly with what Moe said. You do these exercises and then you go out and just let your body hit it the way it wants to. |
sorry
I am sorry if I am coming across like a salesman. I will catagorically state that I don't work for bioengine, we have no business or personal arrangements or kickbacks. Our only relationship is that I have paid to be screened and have a personal tarining regime supplied.
I'd never heard of biomechanics before, so maybe that helped because I didn't have any preconceptions. I would be amazed if in a fairly new field in such a complicated area that there wern't failures. Overpromising and underdelivering. People with dubious qualifications selling snake oil. All I can say with my relationship with bioengine and the business he is a part of to date is that the results have been there for me to see, and for the people who I play golf with to see. bioengine has backed up what he's told me. He has been open with information and time to show me what it is he does and why what he does works. Why I've responded to many of the questions raised here is twofold: one because it has helped me, and I know how frustrating golf can be, so I hope that people will investigate and find out if this can help them. I don't know what it's like in the US but bioengine has been prepared to show me why he's worth my investment. Of course it was still a risk because I'd never heard of anyone who has benefitted. I have since! Second is because many of the questions and comments have seemed to me to be based on assumptions about what bioengine is selling and not what he really has to offer. Styles - I know you on another forum so I hope you know me well enough to believe that I was not having a go at you in my previous post. I think that when you heard "best way" you assumed things - maybe previous experiences with position golf stuff, or other "My pattern is better than your pattern" stuff. But bioengine has always said to me that what he teaches doesn't take away the need for TGM or golf pro teachers. But there are aspects of people's golf that his training is better able to help than traditional methods. For example, I have heard of drills where you try and have the feeling of skipping a stone. I suspect that this is trying to tap into our natural biomechanics and apply them to the golf swing. bioengine would say that he can help us go beyond tapping into our natural biomechanics and actually help us to improve them. Then when we apply them to the golf swing we get a better result. Golfguru has uses the analogy of throwing a ball many times. This is tapping into our natural athletic ability. bioengine's training will probably help me to be better at throwing a ball. And if I can bring that to my golf swing I will also have a better swing. Not sure how much sense that made. But all I can do is try ... It would help if I could learn to say something with less words!:) |
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Good stuff here . . . . Very nice . . . . now the question is how and how much . . . Does the shoulder tilt have anything to do with how much you press forward? Good post . . . comentary on the pics is welcome.   Check the left knee in this sequence . . .  He didn't do it anything like he demonstrated . . . check the tilt in the shoulders . . . if he actually did this you'da never heard of him . . . course maybe that's what he did before the secret? Compare the shoulders in the pics above this . . . WAY DIFFERENT.  Maybe one of the best Hogan pics I've seen . . . AWESOME. Check out the #3 angle and the clubface . . . BEAUTIFUL!!!!  |
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You're going to hurt yourself swinging that way. No Pivot. Zone 1 not functional. You're not Balanced. "Work" should be done with the Lower Body and Core Muscles. It's like riding a Bicycle. Legs do the work (feet, knees, Hips) arms and hands direct. Shoulders are simultaneously part of the Pivot and Power Package. The Right Shoulder is Thrown by the Pivot. Learn Zone 1 Separately. Learn Zone 2&3 Separately. “Reverse every natural instinct and do the opposite of what you are inclined to do, and you will probably come very close to having a perfect golf swing.” Ben Hogan. Hit the Ball with your Feet. |
thanks
Thanks Daryl
Seems like you an bioengine agree on something! That is my before shot and your points and bio's line up. There is another video called something like Practice Swing - 110809 (in Oz we go day/month/year not month/day/year like the US so 110809 was 11 August 09) which is where I am after abot 10 weeks of PST. Someone asked for a before and after so I linked to the before, and then people will either see the after in the list at the side or can link back to my homepage and find the after. My PST exercises have been aimed (to the best of my understanding) at creating proper lower body action and driving the swing from the ground up around a stable spine. I'm no expert but I think the new swing is much better from that perspective - certainly from "inside" I can really feel how my lower body is starting the downswing and supplying the effort - in fact it feels like my lower body starts well before my arms have finished going back. |
From Oz? Are both you and Bio from Oz? Golfguru is from Oz. Does anybody know "Tony" : "Ozgolfer" ? I think he's from Perth. One of the best guys I've ever met. I haven't heard from him in awhile.
Weetbix, I've viewed all of them. No improvement. Sorry. You just don't understand the Pivot. |
can admin fix the pictures?
I'm having trouble reading the posts :salut: |
GPStyles,
That's Bucket. I swear, sometimes he's clueless. :laughing9 |
Weebtix... like bio (your alter ego) YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT. Quite literally you GOT IT ALL WRONG... every bit of it. Your post demonstrates you know absolutely nothing about mechanics. That said I'm glad you've found a placebo that is working for you this week and wish you the best.
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On "potential
Muscles are not bungee cords. They don't "STORE" energy when stretched. The only potential energy in the golf swing is owing to gravity and the distance height the club/arms have to fall.
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No_Mind, you're a psychopath. Ask your Doctor to increase your Haloperidol dosage.
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Fine, I'll quit posting. It's no longer worth my time when there's a psychopath involved. But seriously, you need professional psychiatric help.
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Its been WAY longer than that for the rest of us. He is like so vapid. Rip into him. |
Yah right...
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Its more like quitting the Mob. D cant quit, "he knows too much". |
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Hey No Mind, the energy that weetbix is talking about is not bungi cord type stretched energy. You are obviously correct that muscles do not work like that at all. Muscles do work however, and those muscles when contracted create energy, how else could you get the ball past the Womens tee? Assuming you can that is?
It would be nice if things were read a little more carefully and there was some patience in understanding here, sometimes it's hard for people to clearly explain their ideas in words on a forum. The aggressiveness that is coming from you is not helpful at all in this discussion of ideas. Please remember Weetbix and I are students of the game trying to learn and here to do just that. Learning requires questioning and patience, not abuse and yelling. |
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very aggressive posts no-mind.
No place for that. You could just "do one", or start behaving with a little more courtesy for fellow members. |
Benhogan
Daryl,
The hips and shoulders turn perpendicular to the spine. Tilting or dropping the right shoulders has no impact at all on creating ground forces. Another myth is creating tilting of hips and shoulders. The reason they tilt is they are reacting to the spine, Tilting is a reaction to how the spine is moving. In golf there is slight right lateral bending of the spine. This occurs to allow the right arm drive down into impact. Slight right lateral bending stabilizes at impact and extension of the upper body occurs at impact. Regards Hogan, Hogan talked about he fires his hips first, although was he aware his hips fired first, was he aware how this occurred. Golfers speak about how they feel their body moves although are they aware how this occurs. Hogan had great lower body mechanics, Hogan knew how to create ground forces which created hip rotational speed for him and stabilizing his lower body at impact. If you pay close attention you will notice from the beginning of Hogans downswing to impact his left knee maintains the same flexion. Hogan stabilized his lower body at impact and his hips decelerated. This allowed his upper body to close. At impact notice Hogan sternum and belt buckle are in line this indicates. His shoulders and hip are square. His hips and shoulders are perpendicular to his spine. Hogan has good movement patterns. Hogan secret was in the dirt for sure he has wonderful lower body mechanics. This was Hogans secret he knew how to create ground forces and knew how to stabilize his lower body at impact. It's not about how big of a hip rotation you have, It's about how fast your can create speed before your lower body stabilizes at impact. Small rotation with fast acceleration is the key. Which can reach peak speed fastest a huge hip rotation or a small hip rotation. One other myth is trying to thrust your hips or turn them yourself. This is called superficial speed. When people try this they lack ground forces and can't create stabilization or deceleration of the hips at impact. The upper body can't catch up.Mechanics terms creates the over the top move. Everything spins out left. |
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Good post . . .Interesting stuff here . . . we are now back on track hopefully from all the COM COAM mess . . . this is the meat of it. . . . This is how people improve not that other crap about whether CF is there or not. So let's have some further discussion on what you've posted above. I think this is VERY important stuff. Really like the part about Hogan's knee action . . . Interesting that what he prescribed doing wasn't what he actually ended up doing. To your point about Hogan's left knee maintaining its flexion . . . . you can see this very cleary in comparison of the two sequences. Also the left knee maintaining it flexion obviously has implications to the other components. Particularly the slant of the hips, spine, and shoulders . . . as you know the club responds accordingly (altering plane angle, angle of approach & attack etc.) . . . so the pivot has HUGE geometry implications. With regards to when and how certain segments get in line. So you have mention sheer forces (sp?) force across the ground and vertical . . . Is this the left knee piece you mentioned? Another question . . . could you expand a bit on the lateral bending of the spine vs. the hips going forward. Would the hips moving forward not also creat tilt in the spine? |
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Ok let me add here so more info to develop a better understanding of lower body mechanics Center Of Mass is where weight is central.Safely say the belly button. COP Center Of Pressure is the center pressure between the feet. Normal forces are the normal force applied perpendicular to ground by golfer through the feet/ground interface. Shear forces are forces applied to parallel to or along the surface of the ground by golfer through the feet/ground interface. A golfer starts with a shift of the center of pressure toward the rear foot as the club is "taken away" during the initial portion of the back swing. This shift moves the center of pressure behind the center of mass relative to an axis running along the target line. As the golfer nears the "top" of the back swing and begins transition from back swing rotation into down swing acceleration the center of pressure shifts forward toward the front foot. It is this action creating forward momentum that facilitates the production of shear force at the feet/ground interface. Ground reaction to the shear force created by the feet produces a force couple, which is translated through the legs to the hips segment. The force couple acts on the hips segment to produce torque and rotary acceleration. Once speed is transfered the lower body then stabilizes and the hips decelerate at impact. The main reason for right lateral bending is so the right arm can react low point in the swing. You can still move forward and maintain the hips and shoulders to be perpendicular to the spine. The only time the hips can have an impact on lateral bending is if the left side of your lower body isn't stabilized or anchored. Although this is a lower body stabilizing issue not spine related. When hogan does his drill can you notice he lost flexion in his left left leg, his hips are open left and his upper body is square to his hips. Hogan lost his ground forces and lower stability. If hogan did this he may create a superficial hip speed, although he wouldn't have lower body stabilization and hip deceleration. this wouldn't allow hips speed to be transfered to his upper body or Load and fire his muscles. Again the question remains was Hogan really aware how he created hip rotational speed or the demonstration is how he felt was how he created hip rotational speed. I'm not sure Hogan was aware how important the ground forces he created was the essence to Hogan creating hip rotational speed, lower body stabilizing at impact and hip deceleration, which allowed speed to transfer to his upper body, load and fire his muscles then his upper body would square up to his hips. What we think or feel we are doing sometimes can be totally opposite to what we are truly doing. |
Bucket - they are great pictures. How different is what he feels from what he does. Hips in actual swing have turned so much less it's amazing.
BTW - how do you load a pic into a thread. I tried with the Insert Image button and all it did was att a text saying [IMG] reference [/IMG] |
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