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No personal insults on either side please. Usually when a thread gets to this point its either getting really interesting or really overworked. There is still some good subject matter here if y'all can keep your cool. One warning - this thread now has MikeO's attention so which pill do you want; red or blue? |
The left knee move is more than a stable base, it is a critical part of why Hogan could create lag pressure the way he did.
Many of those that learned from Hogan speak of moving the left knee as a key start to the downswing. It is well worth trying if you are a swinger. |
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A couple of observations on the two pics (drill vs. real) and your comments would be appreciated . . . 1. Shifting focus a bit to the right knee. Note that the spacing between the knees is much better in Hogan's "real" pic. The right leg is MUCH straighter at Start Down than in the "drill" pic. Also there is probably less flexion in the right knee than there was at address at this point. The right side gets "saggy" in the drill . . . would this be due to the COG you described above going parallel to the target line? 2. Is there a "direction" for the left knee in creating the forces you describe above? Should the left knee maintain its flexion AND move toward the target at startdown? 3. At what point in the stroke do the hips lose their flexion in the downswing? Or do should they? See below . .. THIS  OR THIS?    |
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You can try maintain flexion with your left knee although this won't work for people. Hogan was able to maintain knee flexion was a reaction from being able to create normal and shear forces. The down swing acceleration the center of pressure shifts forward toward the front foot. It is this action creating forward momentum that facilitates the production of shear force at the feet/ground interface. Ground reaction to the shear force created by the feet produces a force couple, which is translated through the legs to the hips segment.This creates lower body stabilization and maintain left knee flexion. The force couple acts on the hips segment to produce torque and rotary acceleration. How hogan created Lag was a chain of events, in his initial downswing Hogan created separation between his lower body and upper body. This loaded his muscle group between his hips and upper body relationship. The stabilization of Hogans lower body allowed Hogan to fire his upper body with his muscles.His arms Lagged behind and his muscles in is upper body arms relationship loaded, As his upper body started to slow prior to impact, This again allowed hogan to fire the muscles (arm /upper body).His upper body would momentarily slow and square up to his hips at impact.The slowing of the upper body allow hogan to fire his arms. Hogan arms fired and they slowed down just prior to impact allowing hogan to release the club. This is how hogan created Lag. It's a little more complex than this although I hope this gives a general understanding. Hogans secret was a chain of the events although his key to his golf swing was the ability to create ground forces. With out ground force you can not maintain knee flexion like hogan did. A chain of events lead to how Hogan created Lag. In golf people don't know how to create ground forces. Although even if they are aware of them it's not something you can physically apply on the practice fairway. You need to train your body the right movement patterns to create ground forces. What is important is how you create the right moves to create ground forces. Took years of research to work out how to train someone to achieve ground forces, research found the body has to be trained to achieve ground forces. |
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Daryl what do you mean by these lines, none of these are representing the axis of the spine, shoulders and hips are in space. The hips, shoulders and spine have turned and open left of the target. These lines are according to the target line. They aren't representing in reference to the axis of the spine, where the spine is in space. The center of mass has moved towards the left foot and the shoulders and hips have turn around the axis of the spine left. these lines aren't indicating or are a good reference to whether or not the hips and shoulders are perpendicular to the spine. Can you explain what these lines are trying to indicate? Bucket, In my reply to Edz will may be shed some light. We don't every worry about knee flexions etc. how far hips left etc. Huge secret and key is if you have created the right ground forces this take care of the lower body mechanics, hips speed, how far the hips turn, acceleration and deceleration. sliding and so one. The theory was created 20 years ago, although taken years to work how on earth to teach someone to how do this. Although was natural. If you train your body how it wants to naturally create speed or anatomically designed to move. This happens for you. Next toughest part working out how to train the body how to move the way it's designed to. Years of research and testing. |
Sorry Bio, I should have added comment. The photo's aren't mine. I don't know what the lines represent.
I uploaded the photo sequence to illustrate that Ben Hogan's Hip often led his shoulders well into the Finish. Examples of Hogan were posted illustrating parallel Hips and Shoulders at Impact and I thought that those didn't represent Hogan entirely. |
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Kevin |
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Ok I was thinking the photo's look a lot like Jeff's art work of lines and drawings.:laughing9 How do you upload images from your computer on to this thread??? |
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So how does this help someone create grounds forces?. If someone tried to feel if they are hitting the back of the ball with their left shoulder. Wouldn't this promote an over the top move? Aren't you teaching them to fire their upper body first? Instead of engaging the lower body first. Would this also cause a lateral slide as well? Trying to put weight on your left foot doesn't creating ground forces. Get some pressure plates or forces plates try it and see for yourself. |
Rooting
Wish that V.J. Trolio was in on the discussion. He has
really made a study of the forward move which I call the Hogan Move. One of the things that V.J. says is as follows: On the right leg,knee, etc...As mentioned in the book the head will go down but not forward. This will increase the left knee flex quite a bit at the top.. some 15 to 20 degrees. There are forces that must be used by the pivot. One being longitudinal force into the ground, the other sheer forces. As you turn and move left, placing the center of mass over the left leg, the head will go down, the left knee will increase flex, and a force will be felt into the ground under the left foot. This is the longitudianal force. Once this force is in the ground (martial arts calls this rooting) then the instep of the right foot and the larger muscles of the left leg and glute are used to create sheer forces (forces that run parrallel to the surface of the ground) for extreme rotational ability. With that said, make sure you feelthe downward rooting into the ground. The new DVD by Trolio, showing concepts in the "The Final Missing Piece" book is very good. About $20.00, not expensive. |
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:salut: Kevin |
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Where do you think Trolio, got his information from. This isn't from his own research. Although one miss guided information is the right foot and larger muscles of the left leg is what creates shear forces. The shear forces aren't what create rotational talk. The center of mass moving along the target line pressing into to your left side and creating opposite ground reaction forces is what creates rotational torque. Continuing to press into your left side and creating ground reaction forces is what creates super stiffen or rooting. A research paper on normal and shear forces was in a US golf magazine 18 years ago of the guy who discovered ground forces. These guys were one of the first to start golf research. Ground forces are not only in golf they are applied in tennis baseball, any bat and ball sport, even the throwing action. This is nothing new, ground forces has been around for a long time. Although it's only now that the golf industry is starting to implement golf biomechanics as part of teaching, now people are talking about ground reaction forces. Again this is theory. We all know the theory, all that matters is how you train the body how to create ground forces. It's something you can physically apply in your swing. Like geometry you have to train your geometry, same applies for ground forces you have to teach your body the right movement patterns to create ground forces. I hope Trolio has the common decency to give the researchers where he sourced his information from a kick back on the videos he's cashing in on. |
Center of Mass
Bioengine,
I cannot speak for V.J. Trolio, but I do not think that he ever insinuated that he descovered Rooting. Hd did mention that Rooting was a martial art tecnique. Martial Arts was in play long before Golf was invented. I sence that the disagreement is when the center of mass moves to the left. Your posts appear to indicated that there is a gradual move to the left from the top of the backswing. In Hogan's case the complete move was completed prior to starting the downswing. Trlio did not say that this was the way that it should or has to be done, but the way that Hogan did it. A gradual shift of the center of mass in the downswing followed by a hip turn is very difficult to execute. |
This is getting very interesting. Thanks dkerby and Bioengine. The ground forces and their use is really starting to make sense. Ground forces help stabilize and assist/direct Hip Motion.
I have a ways to go. So I may not have described it correctly. |
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I hadn't elaborated when people start pressing forward occurs. I didn't agree how he described the shear forces created hip rotational speed. Ground reaction forces create hip rotational torque and supper stiffen. This information wasn't quite right by trolio, he's on the right track although it's important if people are to learn about ground forces the information has to be accurate. Trolio is selling videos and making money off someone else's research and hard work, this is true. Maybe he's not saying it's his work although they way he promotes his video comes across that way. This is why I said I hope he has the common decency to give a kick back to the person he got his information from. Sorry if I offended anyone by saying this, although I feel it's just the right thing to do. If someone took one of Yoda's ideas and put it on video and sold it I would say the same thing. I do agree with Trolio that hogan started pressing forward prior to completing his back swing.Although the move wasn't completed before the downswing started. Super stiffen or rooting occurs just prior to impact and sustains until impact occurs. This happen so fast you can't see it nor on video can pick this up. The hips actually counter torque and turn back away from the target a few degrees when you super stiffen . On video you won't see this occur. When the upper body catches up with the hips and impact occurs, the hips and upper body turn through to a full finish together. People who have good ground forces and lower body mechanics they all start pressing forward prior completion of the backswing. This is why I have said all along, you can't physically apply ground forces or this move on the practice fairway. You need to train your body how to create this movement pattern. |
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Click on photo Daryl, In the first photo, the white is normal forces. Yellow arrows are shear forces. Orange is the ground reaction forces. The black line is the direction of pressure or force. From the photo's take notice all the way into impact how stable hogans left side is, barely moves. Hogan has an internal hip rotation. Notice through out the swing hogans hips and shoulders are perpendicular to his spine. In the last photo notice his hips and shoulders are square to each others. Hogan's hips and shoulder are perpendicular to his spine. Hogan's knew how to create ground forces and super stiffen at impact (stabilize). This allowed hogan to fire his upper body and square up with his hips at impact. Poetry in motion. |
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Depends on what people class as impact. I'm talking about when the ball and clubs very first contact when to ball and impact initially come in contact, or exactly moment super stiffen occurs. Do you know what frames per second between 5000 to 10000 frames per second? Must have been captured by some very high tech gear. Or extremely lucky it occurred in sequence to frames. A very rear occasion. |
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Early 90's to 96 your crew worked with Greg Norman? Sources say your crew was responsible for dramatic changes to Norman's swing in the early 90's? In 1995 there is a article about Brian Gay working with your crew.According to sources Brian work with you crew for years. Does Brian still get tested ? |
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You have reliable sources for providing accurate information is all I can say, I'm not able to comment much further due to client privacy agreements. Again even thought the team has worked with Brian in the past. Again I can't comment on Brian any further. |
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Somewhat similar if you were to imagine throwing a sack of feed into the back of a pickup. Force moves through the body, with the legs being very involved. |
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I would like to put your theory to the test and measure to see if this would occur. Would be very interesting to see the outcome. Has anyone measured your theory to verify this works? Ground reaction forces create hip rotational torque. Normal forces alone won't create hip rotational torque which your speaking about. Is this your theory Edz and belief or has it been measured and proven it works? |
under rocks
I will never understand the ability of one person to say something to a computer screen they would not say to the person's face. Unreal.
Anyway. The definitions of lateral force, linear force into the ground, and sheer forces come from a mathematics and from what I know of bio-mechanics. Mr. Hogan moved his center of gravity to his left leg axis prior to the change of direction. He also used his athleticism to create forces from the ground. My research: Film Angles drawn in 2 dimensional space (video) Measurements with a micrometer Discussions with Bio-guys at TPI seminars People gifted in mathematics Physics Professors at MS State Just look at what Hogan did and explain it. It changed after the wreck and I would like anyone to explain all the complexities it involved. The pivot won the MS State Am, 4 high school state championships, and it had 3 players in USGA National championships. If all the geniuses on this page can get together and figure it ALL out we might get a USGA Champion. So give a this redneck a break! It is really pretty simple and John Schlee said it in "Maximum Golf." Let's get to a place we can turn from. Trolio |
Successful in all things, Author, Inventor, Teacher, Researcher, Scholar, Loving Husband and Father, Protector of the Faith, One of the greatest ball strikers to ever live, Nice guy, Friendly, Good looking and Personable, Athlete, Helpful, Honest and Sincere with a great sense of humor and lover of fried catfish.
How can you be a Red-Neck? "Though he is small, he is but fierce". William Shakespeare :notworthy |
Great to see you VJ! Happy to see you defending yourself, but you shouldn't have to. The bio-mechanics like to go after TGM guys because they believe there is ONE way that should work for everybody. Thank GOD and HOMER and YODA we know better!
Kevin |
Bio-mechanics are awesome. The guys that know the body that well are a real benefit to the game of golf. The stuff TPI, CHEK, and others are doing for the golfing body is super stuff!
AMM and K-Vest are giving us as instructors a completely different way to measure mechanics and I think that is awesome. We can now look at Zone #1 in a way that Mr. Kelley could never look at it and that is a real benefit. I have measured the center of gravity (in video) for years. In fact the first time I started thinking about it is when Rob Noel gave me a lesson on hip slide/axis tilt 13 years ago. That was the first time I noticed that shifting the weight effected where I hit the ball on the face of the club. Center of gravity is below the belly button from face on and as Don Donatucci (forgive me if I spelled it wrong) from rear view it is the booty crack. I know that center of mass is statically and dynamically are different. I also know that center of pressure (in the feet) is different as well. That being said, if one is measuring these three different aspects of weight shift they will all come to different conclusions. Again I really like Hogan as a model for two reasons: One he was hit by a bus and then went on to play some of his best golf. Second because he got better and better and better over the years. That meant he was building better mechanics. Really pretty neat stuff! Everyone really needs to just sit back, listen to Bob Marley and The Whailers (or something) and enjoy everything that can be learned and put into action for our golf swings. Daryl- Thank you for the accolades but I really am just red neck...... |
Thanks for the info VJ. I will start looking at bio-mechanics in a different light. Maybe I'll even have to find my TGM Bio book!
Actually, as a believer in your book, perhaps I've been learning a little bio-mechanics already! :) :notworthy Kevin |
VJ
That is lot of fine players you have there. Congrats on the successful field testing. Hands to pivot, does not excuse the Pivot from the work it must do, of which there is a lot. |
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Is Don Donatucci that strange guy from Big Break?
:confused1 :laughing9 |
I made Zone 1 changes over the summer partly because of this thread and partly because I’m compulsive-obsessive and if a little change is good, then more change is better.
I haven’t bought into “Biomechanics” training. Biomechanics has latched onto the idea that your swing will improve if properly trained to manage ground forces using leg muscles and joints. They may have studied human motion in every major sport. They help jumpers jump. They helped runners run. When in doubt, add more muscle. Biomechanics Researcher: “How hard do you push with your right leg during the downswing?” Golfer: “Not too much.” Biomechanics Researcher: Push Harder. About mid season I was sold on changing my pivot to include a defined “Sit-Down” Action. That became a train wreck. All that did was force my hands to an elbow plane during the down stroke. Anything that affects that straight-line delivery path does no good for my swing. It’s not about the legs. Feet and knees accommodate Hip Motion. Hip Action moves the Shoulders. My legs are "Passive" again. I use my feet and knees. They respond and allow. My head is stationary. Quote:
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Kentucky Fried
Reminds me of Bucket- very defined sit down action and passive legs.
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Ground Forces
I was fortunate enough to play with Brandon Inge yesterday. He is the Detroit Tiger 3rd baseman, all star team home run derby, 5 feet 6 rock hard forearms but otherwise not a big guy. He improved his batting this year by spending extra pre season time with the tiger hitting coach. Hit 27 home runs.
On number eight at Cliffs Falls South(Nicklaus) a dog leg around a lake he drove the ball over the lake from back tees to a green 383 yard away and went off the back. !!!!! He said he plants his feet and leads with his right elbow. Then snaps the whip. Talked about how he could hit it as far as bigger guys like Carbera it was awesome. Hope to get more info later |
Awesome skill. He can probably hit a tomato farther than my Drive.
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