tried the ben doyle swing...
 

I've taken the information from Ben's video clips and took it to the range. It's been disasterous for my swing.

Now that i remember it, when I first watched Ben's video two years ago, the results were bad, too.

i enjoy watching Ben swing, but I think his stuff is more difficult to implement than Lynn's or Chuck's.

When i learned from Lynn's site and Chuck's site, I was able to use the information right away to improve my swing.

Its a hard swing to use because of the components....there is a post somewhere on here where BrianManzella said that snap release and/or maximum delay only works for like 5% of golfers.

Its good that you tried though because you know that it just doesn't work for you. You need to find a different component to replace it. That's the beauty of TGM.

i wonder if those golfers that it works for 5% end up being really good golfers ive found ben doyles teaching extremely helpful but as you saw in the ben doyle video the average joe has a very hard time getting it, i know that when i first tried hitting just from learning from lynn and chuck i didnt quite do good because it was different but know i can do either or and perform about the same even though i prefer swinging. also noproblemos im curious what from bens teachings did you try to implement not having clubhead throway and leakage, i could see if youd been hitting that it wouldnt merge good because hitting if you continue to thrust your good. but if your a swinger i dont seee how it couldnt help. btw what is your handicap and do you currently consider yourself a good ballstriker

VERY IMPORTANT!

Ben tries for this pattern, but will 'settle' for much less.

He could easliy teach other patterns, but really feels that shooting for the moon HAS TO BE DONE by some teachers...

...and one of them would be him. :wink:

Learning By Watching...And Then Doing
 

You went to the wrong place, noproblemos. Instead of the range, take Ben's Chip, Pitch and Punch Shots to the Chipping and Pitching Greens.

Learn to hit these little shots crisply, firmly. From a slightly Open Alignment of the entire Body (not just the Stance), position your Head in the dead Center of your Stance and shift your Weight (Hips) slightly left. Your left quad should feel loaded. Set your Flying Wedges properly.

On the Backstroke, use your Right Forearm to take the Club up, back and in On Plane. Your Zone #1 Pivot Components (Feet, Knees, Hips and Shoulders) should support and assist this natural movement. On the Downstroke, with the Body Turn gently leading, use that same Right Forearm to Accelerate and Drive the #3 Pressure Point through Impact. That's Hitting. Alternatively, Swingers should allow the Turning Body to transfer its Momentum into the Accelerating Left Arm and Club and let Centrifugal Force do the work. Either way, keep the Action sharp and take a little Divot.

Hold your Follow-Through at Both Arms Straight. Look, look, LOOK and make sure your Left Wrist has remained Flat and your Right Wrist has remained Bent. Deliberately employ one of the three Hinge Actions and verify that you executed it correctly. Make sure the Clubhead has remained beneath the Hands. Learn to make that Sand Wedge talk: Chip Shots, Pitch and Runs, Cut Shots, Lob Shots, Low Flying Spinners.

Do this 10,000 times -- I am not exaggerating that number -- and then let us know how it's going.

Re: Learning By Watching...And Then Doing
 

Recipe for becoming a PLAYER!!!!!!!

Great post YODA,

EC

Traditional teaching states to open the stance more as the shots get shorter, and place the ball further back, even near the right foot, as the shots get shorter. I was under the impression that the TGM way was to place the ball left of the sternum, and with a parallel, straight stance, even with a chip shot.

Yoda, do you advocate opening the stance more and more as the shots get shorter? Is there a rule of thumb as to how open the stance, and alignment should be as shots get shorter?

Thx

Re: Learning By Watching...And Then Doing
 

I'm up to around 2000 now and I'm finding that it's working great. I really appreciative that you've put these up Yoda. The more times I see the patterns demonstrated, and by different people the more it sinks in.

I've recently found out that my swing is terribly handsy. I've worked so hard on getting my brain into my hands that it's over cooked. I've found an instructor that's taken lessons from Ben and has a good understanding of TGM so he's helping me with my pattern using some of the knowledge from his Ben lessons.

Chip, pitch, punch!

PS. LOOK carefully at how the tire moves when he hits it. It should shed some light on the down out and FORWARD. No double dribbling!

Re: Learning By Watching...And Then Doing
 

It's actually good to hear that there are people who are having success with this style.

Thanks for the comments in this thread. everybody's posts were helpful.

Re: Learning By Watching...And Then Doing
 

I prefer to think of it as a different way to explain it... or even simply a different voice to the same sentence.

Wedges intact, check
Flat left wrist, check
Bent right, check
Lagging clubhead, check
Chip sounds like you just hit a rock, check

Imparitives all there :) The rest is up to you.

How to Build a G.O.L.F. Game IMHO is the best instruction video I have ever seen. It is video I keep coming back to and understand more as time goes on. Incubation can be quick or can be slow depending on the student and where they are at. My improvement has been based on this video, this website and Brian,s and Chuck,s website. Like I said incubation can take time the Penny does not always drop straight away. That does not mean that the information is incorrect. Work on a flat left wrist, lag pressure and your plane and things have to improve.

Agree.

Any since Ben gives the student the tape of the full lesson he is after something different than most of all instructors are. This excellent concept of his supports a very extended incubation process.

Snareless Axis Tilt
 

Noproblemos,

Let's see if we can be even more helpful here. Where does the 'disconnect' seem to be between your current procedure and the ideas you are attempting to implement on the range? In other words, what is it that just doesn't seem to work for you?

As an example, one piece of Ben's instruction that is very easy to exaggerate is 'Sit and Tilt.' The purpose of the Axis (Spine) Tilt is to permit the Right Shoulder to Turn toward the Ball (remain On Plane) during the Downstroke. It is properly accomplished by Sliding the Hips to the Left while the Head remains Stationary. If, instead, the player simply leans backwards, two Snares immediately raise their ugly heads: the Bob and the Sway. Either is certain to disrupt the orbit of the Club and produce the 'disastrous' results you mention.

That seems to be the case with the student in the videos. In an effort to Tilt, he Bobs downward. Simultaneously, he Sways to the right, thereby exaggerating into a fault convention's virtue of 'Stay behind the Ball'. This lethal combination makes it impossible for him to achieve the correct Impact Hand Location, despite his valiant attempts to keep his Left Wrist Flat. Instead of a true Three-Dimensional Impact -- Downward, Outward and Forward -- his Upstroke begins well behind the Ball; he hits Up through the Ball, not Down; and the result is a helpless Scoop. In other words, his lack of Zone #1 Pivot Basic Structure (the Pivot Swing Center Tripod) is sabotaging his Zone #3 Impact Hand Alignments.

During the Address Routine, the student should locate his Head in the center of his Feet and then keep it there throughout the Stroke (at least until the end of the Follow-Through -- Both Arms Straight). With the Bob and Sway thus eliminated, the Hip Slide during the Start Down will Tilt the Axis (of the Shoulder Turn), the Right Shoulder will lead the Loaded Power Package Down Plane toward the Ball, and the Left Shoulder will return to its Impact Fix position (and thereby locate the Low Point of the Stroke well in front of the Ball). This will make the desired Impact Geometry far easier -- even possible -- to attain.

With a mental picture of the desired Impact Hands Location held throughout the Stroke, a Stationary Head properly positioned between the Feet, and a lot of drill with the Start Down Waggle -- Hip Slide (and Delayed Turn) pulling the Hands directly toward the Ball -- hitting behind the Ball rapidly becomes a thing of the past.

Yoda says: Where does the 'disconnect' seem to be between your current procedure and the ideas you are attempting to implement on the range? In other words, what is it that just doesn't seem to work for you?

Noproblemos:
First of all, before watching the Ben Doyle videos, I would like to describe how i was swinging.
I like to think of my left arm and left wrist moving down to low point opposite the outside of my left shoulder. I sometimes do this by making left hand only swings. After I am accurate with this, I add the right hand, but only if I can still make sure that my swing plane and bent right wrist can guarantee that I have that correct low point. This has been working for me for all year (less fat shots), although I’m not sure that it’s the correct way to swing the club. Any opinions on this?

With the Ben Doyle videos,
I really feel I’m holding on the club too long with my right hand. When I do the “hip action” I feel like very little time for power to get transferred to the club, since I was holding on with the right arm too long. I’m obviously doing something wrong, because isn’t it “hip action” that actually puts a lot of power in a boxer’s punch? (is this correct Hue?)
Plus, in the dowel drills, aren't we just bringing the right forearm up and down without trying to hold everything for too long?

Sounds like you were using a Sweep release and Ben is employing a snap release which needs the pivot to work a tad longer with an aiming point.

just my 2 pennies.

Hip action is very important in providing support and power in the punch. I agree with 6bmike's comment

"Sounds like you were using a Sweep release and Ben is employing a snap release which needs the pivot to work a tad longer with an aiming point.

just my 2 pennies."

I think you should focus more on your left arm than your right. At the top at change of directions the left arm is welded accross the chest and the trail shoulder should work down plane . Providing the trail shoulder is driving downplane PP4 will be maintained past the ball with the left arm blasting off the chest well past impact. Brian talks about this with the drunk on the left shoulder being lifted upwards and backwards and his frizbee throw descriptions. I get the feeling this is missing in your action.

Re: Learning By Watching...And Then Doing
 

I spent all evening, yesterday, trying to implement Ben's info from his videos. It was great to consistently get the "click" sound when the face hit the ball. It was great!

one of the things that helped was the open stance.
What is the purpose of going into address with your right foot "pigeon-toed?" Is it to get this open stance?

My second question:
when the elbow is in line with the ball on the downswing (from the face on view) does the clubshaft have to be still parallel to the ground (it looks like that for Ben)? At this point, my club is already below parallel even though my right wrist is well bent.

Doesn't sound like its a very efficient strategy since its doable only by 5% of the golfing population as was said earlier.

Re: Learning By Watching...And Then Doing
 

My second question:
when the elbow is in line with the ball on the downswing (from the face on view) does the clubshaft have to be still parallel to the ground (it looks like that for Ben)? At this point, my club is already below parallel even though my right wrist is well bent.[/quote]

no it doesnt have to be it depends on your release, sequenced or simetaneous. look at pictures of jack and tom watson both of them lose the angle earlier than ben or hogan, sergio. also the right wrist has nothing to do with that, the right wrist should stay bent all the way to the follow through( in a perfect world), the left wrist can unhinge on its own while the right stays bent .

Well what if you were one of that 5% but didn't know it? Wouldn't you be grateful to learn such a swing?

I think you would. It's not like he wouldn't teach you something else if that didn't work...

Well Birdie Man,

I have the pattern down pat, but personally, i think it is too much for anyone to learn, seriously, i think its only for the well coordinated.

Of the 5% of the world wide golfing population, how many will actually be in Carmel? My guess is that probably only 1 of them makes it to Carmel every year and discovers that the Doyle pattern is for them.

ball position
 

if you are setting up open to your target line your plane should follow your target line?? if that is so your ball position should be just right of center?