First Move Down for Swingers
 

I've read some things around the web lately on various forums that seem to be saying that one should drive the right shoulder downplane or bring the hands down to the ball or w/e for the first move down...then the pivot just moves out of the way and responds how it needs to.

They use the "baseball pitcher does not think about his pivot and only thinks of his right hand" analogy.

Now...I've tried this...and the results have been crap.

I have found that if I try to drive my shoulder downplane or pull the club downplane with my hands (for the first move down) that I lose my away-from-target spine tilt through impact and my head moves too much forward.

I feel some switting getting in there too and hit low low pulls and shanks and lower shots in general. Not thin but low. I lose my plane (over the top a bit).

So what I'm thinking now is that if I give my attention to that right arm on the way down (instead of pulling with my left side) it seems to put me in danger of hitting when I'm supposed to be swinging.

Swinging is supposed to be a pulling motion after all.

Um...anyone think anything of this? Maybe I interpreted those posts (about starting the downswing with the right shoulder) wrong.

-Paul

Re: First Move Down for Swingers
 

Per 7-12, last 3 sentences. And 6-M-1 Downstroke sequence. 12-3-0 Section 6 and 7.

Bottoms Up
 

Great references Comdpa.

One of my own swinging snares was forgetting that the swing is from the ground up. Think bottom up rather than top down Birdie. The weight shift (pivot) is your first move.
The feel is letting the hands go along for the ride...a ride that they have defined from the top. That right shoulder can be a bad boy if the hips aren't in the lead.

Bagger

6-M-1 DOWNSTROKE SEQUENCE The Downstroke sequence of the Stroke Components is dictated essentially by Centrifugal Force; acceleration of a lagging Componet will cease at the instant it achieves an “In-Line” position with its immediately preceding Component.

Centers and Accumulators can be sequenced, overlapped, omitted, emphasized, triggered, and timed as the players understanding and skill permit. But the Club’s Swing Radius (6-B-0) ends at the “non-lagging” Component nearest to the Clubhead. The “Centers” of the Stroke start with the Feet or the employeed Component nearest to the feet in the following order: Knees, Hips, Shoulders, arms, Right Elbow, Left Wristcock and/or Left Hand Rotation. For maximum Power, the position of must be taken with that will allow Delay of the Release until all Components, except the Right Foot and Right Shoulder, have reached, or passed the Line-of-Site-to-the-Ball per 6-B-1-C. Then the Accumulators must move very rapidly toward their “In-Line” Position. But none should actually arrive (lose all their Lag and Drag until well after Impact. Also see 6-H-0.

Power Accumulators Release sequence is #4, #1, #2, #3 – regardless of which ones are being employed. Any Accumulator number may overlap or replace its preceding number but cannot precede it. Increase Overlap to increase THRUST – decrease Overlap to increase Velocity

Re: First Move Down for Swingers
 

Just use the MAGIC OF THE RIGHT FOREARM per 7-3.

DG

Re: Bottoms Up
 

If the hips don't clear as they should in a mechanically correct stroke, the hands cannot come from the inside out as is necessary for inside-out IMPACT.

Some of my students run with this hip slide and go into hip OVERDRIVE!...and then its back to the drawing board...

I have them to make their normal turn, then grab a railing on their trail side that is waist high. They need only slide 2 or so inches to feel a tug on their left side - slack is eliminated from the swing.

Per 7-14 - Hula Hula flexibility. When that is done right, there will be the proper amount of axis tilt and roundhousing, running out of right arm will not be an issue.

Impact is incidental on the way to a both arms straight follow thru. That is the Golfing Machine...How "difficult" this is....tsk tsk.

:wink:

An excellent quote - the description of the 'cracking whip'.

'motion' described - the physics of the 'swinging' force

10-19-C

Initiates the gyroscope action required for swingers. Of course, always should be under hands controlled pivot per 5-0, which occurs with experience and practice.

Thank you Mr Ben Hogan and thank you Mr Homer Kelley.

Patrick

Just found this thread again.

I don't think I read all the references last time around....but I just did....

Thanks guys. Appreciate it.

K, so...

-start downswing from bottom to top, instead of top to bottom.....so much for pulling straight down with my right forearm (possibly right arm swinging....+ throwaway).

-downstroke sequence: Knees, Hips, Shoulders, arms, Right Elbow, Left Wristcock and/or Left Hand Rotation.

-10-19-C (Drag Loading) has the perfect Start-Down analogy in it....it gives me a perfect feeling and image for the Start-Down (hopefully perfect mechanics too). "Start the club down as though it were being drawn from a quiver like an arrow- feathered end first."

So great.

Start downswing from bottom to top + pull the arrow out...I like it.

What you're trying to do- procedure vs. what's happening in the movement
 

Make sure you separate what your trying to do- and what needs to happen in the swing- they are two different animals- and each has it's place.

This is something that I've really come to understand in my own stroke this season. I used to get very - even overly - concerned with what was pulling at startdown. However, I came to realize that what everybody was saying was true..."it doesn't matter what you pull with, just pull."

I now personally like to feel that at the top my hands are about shoulder height. I practice mentally constructing the Turned Shoulder Plane angle when I'm at the top. Everything lines up right on it - the right shoulder, PP3, and the ball. Then I simply thrust my right shoulder downplane and allow it to drag my hands into impact. As my hands approach release point, my pivot must respond by moving out of the way to make room for my hands.

It really helps to teach yourself at least a basic Hitting pattern. This will help you differentiate between pushing and pulling to start the downstroke. When you get the top with Hitting, it's right arm thrust all the way down. Now simply make a stroke and don't thrust your right arm. If you know you're not pushing your right arm, what else could you be doing to start the downstroke? Pulling.

The hip slide must precede and, in fact, trigger the right shoulder downplane action. Don't forget that everything, except the right foot and right shoulder, must be past the ball at impact. If the right shoulder moves first, that can't happen.

My hips know to slide and they do. This is again why it's so important to differentiate between what you're actually doing and what you feel you're doing.

Very well said Matt, nearly all the problems of golfdom can be summed up in that statement!!!!

Todd

Which tilts the spine so the right shoulder can follow the plane line and angle.

DRW

What about the head position at impact. Behind, over or ahead of the ball??

Vikram

Behind, where it was at address. BUT, the head may end up with the neck parallel to the ground through impact.

Like this

http://www.golfswing.com/proswings/woods2.htm

Another question?

Can someone explain what is meant by quick start down in 19-C which surely must relate to 6-M1?

CalSr

Welcome, Cal, Sr!
 

Hi Cal,

Congratulations on this first post and also, on your fine grandson, Collin Neeman!

The Swinger's 'quick Start Down' of 10-19-C does not refer to a quick Hand action. Instead, it refers to an Instant Acceleration Hip Action that Loads the Power Package and sets the stage for the Downstroke's unwinding of the coiled Left Side.

The biggest problem the young Jack Nicklaus had to overcome was Flashing Hands (from the Top). With the aid of his teacher, Jack Grout, he learned to use his Pivot --not his Hands -- to begin the Downstroke. And the rest, as they say, is history.

Sorry for the newbie type post but where I get into trouble is the movement of the hips. How does one get the feel for the proper amount of hip slide and pivot action so as not to over or under do it?

A good place to begin is with a heavy club and your eyes closed. That will show you if your hip motion (or lack of it) is causing you to fall off balance. Hold your finish, with your eyes closed, and picture the shot you want in your mind.

When you can swing with your eyes closed, holding your finish until 'the ball lands' - chances are your pivot will be in a decent condition.


Beyond a balance issue, I'd have to see your motion.

Untrained hips
 

It seems for that my hips have no idea what they are supposed to do. Either that or my hands are too stubborn to let the hip do its job first.

I think my hips are turning before any slide or bump, which causes my right shoulder to never go down, only out. Hence, it's a big fat OTT move. Good news is that I never slice it. Just pulls and hooks. My left leg is turning. My back is hurting. In sum, I'm a mess.

The job of your hips is to respond to the hands. Just like throwing a ball.

Imagine skipping a rock, or throwing a stick for a dog (but from golf posture - one of Snead's great images).

As you do this, pay attention to the right forearm and shoulder.

There is a key difference between skipping a rock, and the same motion in golf - the plane. When you skip a rock, the water is horizontal, and your throw is therefore going to account for that. In golf - imagine the "lake is tilted" at 45 degrees to the horizon, and adjust your throw accordingly.

This will get your right shoulder 'down plane' properly, and will make the throw feel 'out to right field' a bit. More of an 'upper cut' motion.

Your hips and pivot will respond in the golf swing, the same way they respond to throwing the stick or stone.