Hook, line, & sinker?
 

I hope that this will be an interesting excercise...especially for all of you (us) true aficiandos of TGM:

What (Which) edict(s) of TGM do you have a real problem in accepting or just has never made sense to you? Admittedly, I have a couple at least, but I'm looking forward to hearing from the forum as a whole.

EC

Had to come back for an edit due to the failure to disclose that which some of you know already...I have a true reverence for TGM and its proponents. This is, in NO way an assault upon Mr. Kelley's work, but instead an opportunity to unveil some its greatest mysteries.

How the left wrist can be flat, the left palm lying on the plane, and the left arm off plane. Still haven't figured that one out, and the thread died where I was hoping for some clarification!

Just to add though, I have MASSIVE respect for Homer's work. It is miles ahead of most golf instruction. As a philosophy graduate, I would say that Homer is a bit like a Plato - not all Plato's ideas are accepted, but even as others surpassed him (and I'm not saying that anyone has necessarily surpassed Homer yet) he is still the greatest philosopher that ever lived because he basically invented philosophy (as we know it). As philosophers talk about the pre-Socratics, maybe one day golfers will talk about the pre-Homerics.

Chris

I'm not too big on (certain) swings (....some Swings) solely using the right forearm to control the motion.....i.e. Swings (Swingers- Drag Loading) with Standard Wrist Action....I've had OK results but nothign great. Something just isn't right....

i.e. Hogan (although this is an extreme example- some would say "You can't swing like Hogan!" or "Hogan was abnormal!" or w/e) would not be Hogan w/o him using his torso more like a rotor.....

....BUT....that's not to say that he didn't have Educated Hands.....Extensor Action....etc....all those good things. i.e., IMO his hands were not just "floppy" or "passive".....passive in driving/powering the swing maybe, but not passive in maintaining some sense of Geometry to go with the Physics of his pivot.

Who knows, my attitude might change as I learn more and experiment more but this is where I stand right now.....mind is still open tho- this is prolly the last thing (that I know of) that I'm skeptical of in TGM.

Remember.....I mean for certain Swings....

-Paul

P.S. good topic EC....we need to talk about stuff like this.

The endless belt effect and the 4 barrel SWING. At least i understand the concept of the endless belt effect, but i don't understand how we can "speed up the belt" so that we can swing up the clubhead. Also i know very little about both 4 barrel strokes and i'd like to know more

Jim,I think you either have to turn faster (swinging ) or HIT harder -with all the associated hazards - 2-M-3 !.Now if you could explain how we get from elbow plane to shoulder plane to hand plane ..all in one swing..I would really appreciate it!:D Great thread for us begginers in particular.

It seems to me that if the left wrist is flat and the palm is on plane, the left forearm has to be on plane unless your left hand grip is very poor. If it is not, someone please explain to me.

Rick

Wouldn't a faster pivot increase the speed?

Rick

I picture the plane as the PANE OF GLASS in the Hogan book that starts on the lie angle of the club (approx 55* to 65*) and then the top of the plane raises vertically as you swing the club up and then lowers back to the lie angle plane at impact, but the base line remains the same. At every point guring the swing, one end of the shaft is pointing at an extension of the base line of the plane, or parrallel to it.

Rick

Because the hands are way down there and the left shoulder is way up there. LOL. :p

The right shoulder is driving on plane causing the left shoulder to rise up off plane. The up lifted left shoulder raises the left arm from the top down as the body remains in an axis tilt and spine angle. The flat left wrist as part of the left side Flying Wedge is on plane with the right forearm. It is an Inclined swing plane with a high end and a low end.

I know you have seen the pictures of the right forearm lower than the left arm into impact.

Thanks Rick, I actually understand that part .It is the location of the turning shoulder plane which I suppose i am struggling with.Sorry should have been more precise.

I have never understood how someone could have the shaft, right shoulder and right arm all on the Turned Shoulder Plane at imapct without a straight right arm. However, in a recent thread someone said that nowhere in the book does it say that the shoulder should be on the TSP at impact, so I guess that answers that.

Homer:
"After a 13-B or 12-C Backstroke Shoulder Turn, the Right Shoulder moves toward Impact precisely on the preselected Downstroke Clubshaft Plane, estblishing and supporting the Power Package Delivery alignments."

Can you please explain what you mean in a different way?

Belt speed (hand speed) reaches its maximum at the beginning of Release, and then stays constant during the Release Interval.

I don't really have any huge nagging 'problems' with the book.

I think the best way to study it is to say to yourself, "Okay, I'm going to trust the info in this book for X weeks/months/years and see where it takes my game." Many people try a new method or system and don't fully commit to it, instead trying to use it as a bridge between their old (faulty) stroke pattern and their desired new one. That simply won't work. With anything new, you have to fully trust it to get any benefit.

That's what I did with the book about 5 years ago. My game improved and that was that.

How can it possibly move on anything but the TSP? Isn't the TSP the angle from the tip of the rear shoulder at the end of the backstroke, no matter where it stops, to the baseline of the plane?

Tong, it's a nice quote, but doesn't really clear up (for me, it's all about me remember :D ) whether or not the rear shoulder should remain on its downstroke plane angle from the End, to the end of the Follow Through, never leaving it. Is there an official, written in concrete, answer on that?

There was a pic posted by Mathew in the Delivery Path and Flying Wedges thread showing Yoda "achieving a perfect Turned Shoulder Plane with Zero Shift". Yoda's shoulder was above the TSP at impact, and I asked if that was indeed perfect execution, because if it was I could update my understanding. Nobody answered, and I didn't push it. Maybe I should have :oops:

Right Shoulder on-plane?
 

I think it's obvious that the right shoulder is ideally just on-plane during the start-down. If it's thrusting - then ideally during that thrust period it would be on plane- but not necessary as you could have an offsetting thrust to balance it out if it was thrusting offplane- see 2-N-1 for that discussion. Of course, there are certain limited conditions/strokes where the right shoulder could be on-plane throughout the downstroke - but we're talking about the norm i.e. you'll have a tough time finding a professional who has their right shoulder on plane at impact- if not impossible. For those that think the right shoulder should/could be on plane throughout the downstroke then you'll need to clearly prove your point.

Agreed...and that recent thread answer was by me...

:)


Not again...Moving precisely towards impact (which I advocate strongly), does not mean at imp[act the same condition stands....

Just my take....

Agree! Just another one of those things where reality does not match theory.

Like you said earlier, you can and should have Right Shoulder On Plane at Start Down, but it's not really practical at Impact. Interestingly, at Follow Through, you'll find quite a lot of players with their Right Shoulder back On Plane.

OK good. So the word is that you shouldn't be worried if your downstroke shoulder turn becomes flat at some point after start down. This is good. Now I can put to rest my Turned Shoulder plane confusion. Finally, you bloody rippa!!:D

Now
"After a 13-B or 12-C Backstroke Shoulder Turn, the Right Shoulder moves toward Impact precisely on the preselected Downstroke Clubshaft Plane, estblishing and supporting the Power Package Delivery alignments."

Can someone clear this up for me. How can the rear shoulder move downplane at startdown, on anything but the Turned Shoulder Plane?

Ok...I have 2.

1. Hinge action being differentiated from swivel. While I know programming is required...anyone that can actually differentiate hinge action from swivel is someone with some serious serious talent and feel.

2. Rotating lag pressure point (actually feeling it).

Philly...
Hinge action has the feel of the entire Left arm flying wedge executing a hinge action around the Pin whilie controlling the Clubface Motion...whereas... swivel rotates the shaft around the sweetspot with the lower portion of the arm independent of the hinge action...When you come down ...I'll show you...


Hinge Action - Clubface...
Swivel - Shaft Rotation around Sweetspot

AS

For the Swinger, you must perform Swivel first to get yourself into position to apply your Horiztonal Hinge Action from Impact to Follow Through.
Swivel into Impact, then apply Hinge Action.

Sorry gentlemen....let me be more clear.

Hinge action in itself is defined during the impact interval (versus swivel - rotation of the hands)...

I was merely pointing out that it takes alot of talent and feel to actually feel hinge action - again, impact interval.

Wish I had that talent.

Which is why we should practice our swivel and hinge action in super slow motion so our computer can suck in all the correct alignments. In fact, that is the only way I would practice the above. Eventually, these correct alignments will leak into your full speed stroke.

Right...I agree.

Let me elaborate a little further.

Hinge action is what? Controlling the clubface through the impact interval - which takes what - 1/1000th of a second???

And swivel is the rotation of the hands into and out of the impact interval.

But the true way to practice is to practice the motions relative to the associated plane, no? Just seems like...while I understand and appreciate the concept of hinge action itself...it is inherent in the motion taken relative to the associated plane - vertical, angled, horizontal.

Which is why we as Swingers give it up to CF to square the face and Hitters mash a "no action" angled hinge deep into the dimples of the ball.

i think- :rolleyes:

Immanuel Kant
 

Looks like Immanuel Kant is now posting on the forum- (had to point that out for those philosophy students - couldn't resist.) Anyway, back to golf: I wouldn't agree that the right shoulder is back on Plane at the both arms straight - Follow Through position. For example, at impact the right shoulder is usually significantly off the plane- but the right forearm is on plane - as the right arm is bent. From impact to follow-through the hands stay on plane and the right arm becomes straight- but during that period from impact to follow-through the right shoulder doesn't drop down to the plane to create the straight right arm, rather the elbow comes up off the plane until the right arm is straight. So during release the right elbow is below plane, at impact it is on plane and during the follow-through it is above plane.

Mike O.

Rotation-shaft / longintudinal center of gravity
 

No offense Annikan but the fact that the Shaft rotates around the Longitudinal Center of Gravity or as you said the Sweetspot (see Glossary) is completely separate from Swivel (independent forearm rotation- compared to clubface closing as a result of the turning body or orbiting arms i.e. hinge action). Take swinging- the longitudinal center of gravity- that line from the grip through the sweetspot- is the line of pull- the shaft is completely subservient and helpless - and therefore rotates around that line of pull.

In addition, for further clarification- the shaft rotates around that longitudinal center of gravity, not the sweetspot. The sweetspot just happens to be that point on the clubface that the longitudinal center of gravity passes through the clubhead.

Mike O.

Mike O


With all due respect ...Are you really sure I'm wrong on this one???.....Lynn personally taught me the shaft rotation around the longitudinal center of gravity(Sweetspot Plane) and it's differentation from Hinge Action.....

If you're really sure... I'm willing to sit back and listen.....

And I have no problem being reproofed if need be...

As a matter of fact Philly ...you and 6B were there when I got up in front of the room at Pine Needles as Lynn discussed this very subject...

BTW please for give me for ...when I said sweetspot I didn't mean on the clubface/clubhead...I meant exactly the LCG which IS the Sweetspot Plane(2-F) ...The invisible plane that we swing and that Centrifugal Force Pulls Outward....

Centrifugal Force is what pulls the string out into orbit...Centrepetal Force is what pulls the string around while its in orbit....


Some say that Centrifugal Force is a ficticious force....

Unfortunatley one of my best friends has a Ph.D in Biomechanics from Penn State....One of the first pioneers of that field of study....states you cannot have Centrifugal Force without Centrepetal Force and Vice Versa..."It's Impossible!!!"
- Dr. Brian Bergerman - Department Head of
Exercise Sciene at Campbell University

anyone?

Is the Turned Shoulder plane the angle that runs through the shoulder and baseline of the plane no matter where the shoulder stops or gets to in the backstroke?

:confused:

Wrong?
 

I was just clarifying- I don't assume anyone is necessarily wrong- you might completely understand it and just post in a manner that doesn't imply that, or the reader(me) may not understand the context of the post, or be incorrect, etc. You'll have to clarify what you meant when you posted "Hinge Action - Clubface" and "Swivel - Shaft Rotation around Sweetspot". My issue was you were relating the Shaft Rotation around the Sweetspot (Longitudinal Center of Gravity) strictly with Swivel, as if it didn't happen outside of the Swivel, when in fact it's happening during the entire swing. That is, whenever there is any face/shaft rotation- in any degree- then that shaft rotation is rotating around the longitudinal center of gravity.

In regards to "are you really sure I'm wrong on this one???" I think the best way to answer that in any given situation is just to present, describe, and clarify your/our comments and see where we logically end up. After all, it's an opportunity to learn and that's the great thing about forums- so I would love to have you clarify what you were saying and I say that sincerely and not sarcastically.

Dave...

I didnt go into it. I think Mike's point is that - swivel is a rotation of the hands into impact (or impact prep if you prefer) versus being pulled by LCG. I didnt go into it because it wasnt the intention of my initial post.

I am sorry...I dont recall exactly what Lynn said regarding this! But I am with Mike - separate concepts.

And Mike...

Is swivel a rotation of the forearms or hands? =; Just kidding.

Good stuff.

BTW...

Taking liberties here. But, WTF...

I learned from alot of people initially - Randy, Chuck, Eddie, Todd, jaminid (Jason - and man would he love this forum!), etc and then eventually others -PB!!! (where the hell is he - man, he knew the book!). And I still do.

But I learned the most from Mike. The great thing about this forum is - though Lynn may have one perspective...others that know the book quite well and arent too far removed from Homer have another. Mike is one of them. So...

Its good to get other perspectives from 'knowledgables' (is that even a word) of the book. Just a comment.

Onward gentlemen, good discussion!

Mike O...

No Problemo...

I'm in agreement..I need to clarify and NOT be so generic!!!

I'll have a "treat" for us all later!!!

Thank you

AS

Longitudinal Center of Gravity - 2-F
 

Treat....Neal Lancaster, PGA Tour Veteran...a visit to the Creek





2-F

Regardless of where the Clubshaft and the Clubhead are joined together, it always feels as if they are joined at the Sweetspot - the longitudinal center of gravity, the line of pull of Centrifugal Force. So there is a "Clubshaft" Plane and a "Sweetspot", or "Swing', Plane. But herein, unless otherwise noted,"Plane Angle" and "Plane Line" always refer to the Center of Gravity application. Study 2-N. except during impact, the Clubshaft can travel on, or to- and from, either Plane because Clubshaft rotation must be around the Sweetspot - not vice versa. So Clubhead "Feel" is Clubhead lag Pressure(6-C) and is a Golfing Imperative. (2-0). If Lag pressure is lost the Hands tend to start the hosel(intead of the sweetspot) toward Impact - that mysterious "Shank". When in doubt, "Turn" the Clubface so both the Clubshaft and the Sweetspot will be on the same Plane at Start Down. Both Planes always pass though the Lag Pressure Point. Study 6-C-2-A.


Enjoy!!!;)

Lcg
 

Annikan,
Let me cover most of the issues that I see and if needed and as time allows we can clean up any remaining issues on this.

Using the quote from 2-F and relating it to our discussion.

1) I'll give you credit that Homer's using the longitudinal center of gravity and sweetspot to mean the same thing. Whereas I was further defining the sweetspot as that point on the face of the club where the longitudinal center of gravity passes through (one point on the line of longitudinal center of gravity). So why your original post was more in line with Homer's writing and correct in that regard- I still prefer my distinction and clarification, as his could infer that if you hit the ball half way up the shaft with the Longitudinal Center of Gravity (LCG)-Sweetspot- that you would miss the ball with the shaft but passed through (hit) the ball with the LCG.

2) In regards to your original post "Hinge Action - Clubface" "Swivel - Clubshaft rotating around sweetspot". Again, strictly from the 2-F quote- Homer's saying the Clubshaft is rotating around the sweetspot throughout the swing.

Two othe clarifying issues in regards to the 2-F quote and your original post.
1) If you or anyone is thinking that his comment regarding "Turn" has ANYTHING to do with Swivel, then they are mistaken. The only similarity would be that Swivel requires a turned position of the clubface, and in his 2-F quote he is saying if you're shanking it - because you lost lag pressure, that if during start down, you turned the clubface so that the shaft and sweetspot were on the same plane- that if you did throw it- i.e. threw the shaft instead of the sensing and controlling the sweetspot with lag, that in that case you would also be throwing the sweetspot at the ball by default and you wouldn't shank from that situation.

2) Again, strictly speaking from his writing method- you have a point on one issue- in that he talks about the shaft rotating around the sweetspot "Except during impact"- which is the period of Hinge Action. However, that only makes sense in a very narrow context- impact is just one part of the overall circle- and nothing different or mysterious happens separately at impact compared to just before or after it.

In summary, I stand by my original post. In addition, your follow-up post added the quote from the book- but I wasn't clear if you were making additional points or what additional arguments you were making- however, I took the liberty to assume a couple of potential ones that I saw.

I see people often who think of the 'plane' as meaning the clubSHAFT. It is very important to understand the above is what Homer is talking about when he mentions 'plane'.

Ed...can you elaborate?

Mike o..

Thank you for your distintion and clarification!!!

Clubshaft can travel on, or to- and from, either Plane because Clubshaft rotation must be around the Sweetspot - not vice versa.

So what is the means by which the shaft can travel on, or to and from?

Does it differ for swinging and hitting...If so...Why and How


I would love to hear what Dr. Collards has to say!!!!


BTW there is a Shaft Plane and a Sweetspot plane so the people who are referring to the Clubshaft are referring to the visible plane but Homer was referring to the invisible sweetspot plane

There are many planes.....There is not a "The PLANE" situation here...
AS

philly - I am talking about the 'invisible' plane - which boils down to the plane of 'motion', of forces in the swing. My personal take is that it is far better to simply monitor the path and plane of PP#1 during the entire motion, than to worry about the clubshaft, or to a certain extent, even the sweetspot.

The club only knows what the HANDS tell it and the ball only knows what the club tells it. By monitoring the path/plane of the hands, the pressure points in the hands, you don't need to worry about the shaft or sweetspot because they will 'follow' what the hands dictate.

Annikan - I disagree a bit that there is no 'the' plane because if you have maintained balance during the entire motion, chances are the hands, the pressure points, will have effectively stayed on a single plane of motion. They will 'orbit' the center of balance.