Clearing up tidbits on TGM
 

I'll use this thread for bits of the book I've got a few queries on.

• 10-5-0, 2nd paragraph:
  "You can see the Angle of Approach blur of the Clubhead during On Line procedures..."
  
  Isn't the Angle of Approach procedure a Cross Line procedure?
  
  
• 7-1, last sentence:
  "The prestressed (bent) Clubshaft (10-19-A) and maximum Swing Radius (10-19-C) are resistances to Impact Decelerations that each must establish before – not during – Impact (2-M-1)."
  
  What bugs me are the terms in parenthesis. Why is the prestressed Clubshaft associated only with Drive Loading (10-19-A), and max Swing Radius associated only to Drag Loading (10-19-C). I thought Swingers should also go into Impact with a prestressed Clubshaft, no? Likewise, Hitters should have max Swing Radius too, no?
  
  
• 10-19-0, 2nd paragraph:
  "Drive Loading tends toward minimum Lag (the short (Compact) Stroke) – meaning contracted muscles (muscle pull). Drag Loading tends toward maximum Lag (the full (Long) Stroke) – meaning stretched muscles (tendon pull)."
  
  Firstly, what kind of Lag was Homer referring to? Pivot Lag, Accumulator Lag or Clubhead Lag? Can someone explain the difference between contracted and stretched muscles; muscle pull and tendon pull?
  

Approaching The Delivery Line -- Or Not
 

Yes, the Angle of Approach procedure is Cross-Line. But what Homer Kelley is saying here is that, in a Swinger's On Line procedure, there is an Angle of Approach (the straight line drawn through the Impact Point and Low Point). And thus you can see the curved Clubhead Blur as it approaches the selected Delivery Line -- the true Geometric Plane Line (2-J-3) -- from the Inside.

In the Hitter's Angle of Approach procedure, an alternative 10-5-E Closed Plane Line becomes the Delivery Line and is erected on the Angle of Approach. The Clubhead then covers that Line and hence does not approach it from the Inside. This leads to one of the book's more obtuse quotes: "There is no Angle of Approach in an Angle of Approach procedure."

Now, technically speaking, the On Line Visual Equivalent would actually be the Arc of Approach (and not the Angle of Approach). However, it is possible for the Hitter to use the true Geometric Plane Line , e.g., 10-5-A per the Basic Stroke Pattern of 12-1-0. In that case, the Right Triceps Thrust could result in a visual Angle of Approach straight line Clubhead Blur through Impact. In other words, the Triceps Thrust toward the Plane Line could result in the Clubhead actually being driven along the Angle of Approach and hence above Plane through Impact.

Cross-Line in the cross-hairs
 

The MASTER HAS SPOKEN . . . .

"There is no Angle of Approach in an Angle of Approach procedure." The difference between COVERING and pointing at.

Can you SWING on the Angle of Approach (10-5-E Closed Closed Cross Line)? Or is that a NO NO?

Very concise and effective post Greenjeans!

B

Square Holes And Round Pegs
 

The Swinger's Motion is On Line whereas the Hitter's Thrust is Cross-Line (7-23). Hence, the (Cross-Line) Angle of Approach procedure is not compatible with Swinging.

square pegs and round holes
 

I was one of those kids that got a square peg in a round hole. But, I am a hitter. ;)

Thanks for the reply Yoda :)

But, confusingly, the 10-5-E Closed Plane Line can be worked into the Swinger's procedure, e.g. to hit a draw.

When you say "cover", you mean visually cover (i.e. from the player's view) don't you? I ask because the plane cannot be so upright that it's vertical to the ground!

Thanks for your confirmations.

Trace Or Cover?
 

The Swinger using 10-5-E to hit a Draw is not the same thing as the Hitter using 10-5-E as the Angle of Approach Delivery Line. The former Traces the Delivery Line -- 'points at it' with the Clubhead -- whereas the latter 'Covers' it (also with the Clubhead). This Covering -- the Clubhead directly above the Delivery Line -- is 'for real' and not merely visual.

Covering does indeed cause the Hitter's Plane to be steeper. However, it does not cause it to be Vertical. Instead, per 2-J-3, its Angle is dictated by the Clubshaft motions required for the Clubhead to cover the Angle of Approach and its extensions (before Impact Point and after Low Point).

The good news is that all Delivery Lines -- whether the true Geometric Plane Line or its Visual Equivalents (Arc and Angle of Approach) are Traced by the Right Forearm and the #3 Pressure Point. So, as always, the discipline is to get your mind out of the Club and into your Hands.

Here is what I am thinking:

All Delivery Lines, including the Angle of Approach, are inscribed on the face of the Inclined Plane. Because the new Plane errected is based on the Angle of Approach (of the old Plane), as we move up the new plane (i.e. go up and in and back), we will pointing at this Delivery Line, but not actually covering it.

Thanks, lets hope I can clear this up!

Double Jeapordy
 

No, Leo, that is incorrect. To say that you "point at this Delivery Line" (the Angle of Approach) is to say that there is an Angle of Approach to the Angle of Approach. And there is none! The Delivery Line IS the Angle of Approach.

Said another way, there is no Visual Equivalent to the Visual Equivalent.

Ok, ok, but...

The NEW 10-5-E Plane Line IS (the proxy for) the Angle of Approach, correct?

If that's true, then you ALWAYS point at/trace the Plane Line (1-L-6), no?

...slowly but surely we are getting to the heart of the problem!

Lets crack this!!

EDIT: one more thing to add to the party -- per 10-5-0, all Delivery Lines (On Line or Cross Line) must be executed as Plane Lines with their individual Inclined Planes.

The Geometric Derivative
 

No.

Again, you do not 'point at' the Delivery Line when it is the derived Angle of Approach. You Cover it.

Here's why:

You already know that the Hitter using the Angle of Approach procedure no longer monitors the true Geometric Plane Line of 1-L-6. Instead, he monitors its derivative -- its Geometric (and Visual) Equivalent (2-J-3) -- the Angle of Approach.

Now, here's your missing piece: The Angle of Approach is not a new true Geometric Plane Line (whether 10-5-E or otherwise). The original Geometric Plane Line, while no longer monitored, remains vitally important as the 'Basic Basic' from which the Angle of Approach was derived. You can substitute the Geometric (Visual) Equivalent for the true Plane Line, but you can't substitue a new true Geometric Plane Line for the original! Remember, any new true Geometric Plane Line means a new Angle of Approach and that, obviously, would be a problem.

Summarizing, the Hitter monitors the Angle of Approach, the Geometric Visual Equivalent of the one and only true Geometric Plane Line. And 1-L-6 is satisfied by Covering this Geometric Equivalent with the Clubhead.

Lynn, Leo- great stuff. I'll be reading this thread a few times and print it out.


MORE

Breathless.
 

Yoda, the above post is a huge one for me to swallow. Wow! I've been trying to get you to say something like that for a few months, and you have finally done it, albeit after many questions from me! Just how you can keep such a huge "missing piece" from public for so long I don't understand. You may have implied it in your previous posts, but you never said it explicitly. I am so happy the word is out now.

By the way guys, 1-L-6 says:
"The Clubshaft always points at the Plane Line except when they are parallel to each other."

Do you think your post above is 100% compatible with Homer's comment:

"Delivery Lines can be "On Line" or "Cross Line" (2-J-3) -- Inside-out or Outside-in. All must be executed as Plane Lines with their individual Inclined Planes.

it's the "with their individual Inclined Planes" bit that's bugging me (or looking at it from another angle, it's your post that's bugging me :D ). You're saying that it should not be executed with its individual Inclined Plane :confused:

God Bless!

You are not changing 'the' plane, you are changing how you 'look, look, look' at HOW to stay on it. A difference in PERSPECTIVE in what and how you monitor. You are not 'actually' doing anything different with the club, relative to the 'basic'.

The Hitter's Inclined Plane
 

Yes, Leo, my post is 100 percent compatitible with your quote from 10-5-0. Obviously, the Swinger's On Line Stroke has its own Inclined Plane, so there's no concern there. Regarding the Hitter's Cross Line Stroke, I never said that the Angle of Approach Procedure did not have its own Inclined Plane, but only that its Baseline is Covered by the Clubhead, not Traced. In my post above (Trace or Cover?), I described that Plane as follows:

"Covering does indeed cause the Hitter's Plane to be steeper. However, it does not cause it to be Vertical. Instead, per 2-J-3, its Angle is dictated by the Clubshaft motions required for the Clubhead to cover the Angle of Approach and its extensions (before Impact Point and after Low Point)."

So, we're compatitble on that point, too.

Finally, the "Inside Out or Outside In" part of the quote refers to the fact that, regardless of how you set the Plane Line -- Square (10-5-A), Open (10-5-D) or Closed (10-5-E) -- the Delivery Lines are integral to the Plane (however aligned) and must be so executed. In other words, the relation of 'the Circle (Clubhead orbit) to the Line' will always produce an Inside-Out Impact (2-J-2), even with an Outside-In Stroke.

Remember though the Angle of Approach is DEFINED by the ORIGINAL INCLINED PLANE. Angle of Approach is defined as "The curved visual path of the orbiting Clubhead, visible on the ground, through Impact Point and Low Point - or the straight line drawn through the same two points. The Impact Point and Low Point are defined by the Orignal Plane not by it's Cross Line proxy, right?

The in the Glossary is the Suez Canal (go around or go across). So the Suez Canal is the ORIGINAL Plane Line. It is always present but the Player has to figure out how to negotiate the Canal by going ACROSS or ALONG.

Gettin' Strong Now!
 

Colonel B,

Your understanding of TGM is increasing by leaps and bounds, and you are absolutely right that the Angle of Approach, the Impact Point and the Low Point are defined by the original Plane Line. However, you've missed a bit on the other points, and 'ol Yoda is here to help.

The "curved visual path of the orbiting Clubhead, etc." is the Arc of Approach, not the Angle of Approach. The Clubhead Blur of the Angle of Approach would be a straight line through the Impact Point and Low Point.

The Suez Canal example in The Glossary refers to this straight line path through the two points -- the Angle of Approach -- not the original Plane Line. The 'going around' (through the two points) refers to the curved Arc of Approach.

maybe good exsample : orthodrome and loxodrome

Loxodrome isn't a straight line, all the time, is it? Awww, but the great circle, the orthodrome- the circle of circles. :)


WW- check out the Frapper map.

So high you can't get over! So low you can't get under it!
 

So wide you can't get around! You must go in at the DOOR!

My bad! I thought that the Suez Canal was the Original Plane Line.

Learning . . . taking . . . place . . . brain . . . too . . .small . . . got . . . a . . . stomach . . .ache . . .in . . . my . . . head.

'Tiz The Way We Learn
 

And your courage to post was rewarded with another step forward in your quest to truly 'own' the treasure that is TGM. Congratulations, Col. Bucket. Keep this up and you'll soon be Gen. Bucket!

Thank you Yoda! Just one more...(not!)
 

Thanks Yoda for your help over the last few days. I really appreciate your clarity and persistence in answering my questions.

Now I understand that the 10-5-E used by the Hitter (as a proxy to the Angle of Approach) is not a true Geometric Plane Line. Whenever I see the words Plane Line, I think trace!. Now, I think differently -- I only trace the true Geometric Plane Line (the 'Basic Basic').

One more question. You say that 1-L-6 (this refers to the True Geometric Plane Line, not 10-5-E, yes?) is satisfied as long as the Clubhead covers the Angle of Approach. But since this covering occurs after Low Point also (because we cover the extensions of the Angle of Approach also), wouldn't that take the Clubhead above plane (once again, we are talking about the Basic Basic Plane, right?) hence violating 1-L-6?

P A R A L L E L
 

Collards,

Annikan Skywalker and I were discussing the Geometry, Visual Equivalence, and Practical Applications of this thread. I was making the point that well the Proxy Plane Line is just a theoretical thing. How could you apply it practically without just saying Cross Line is just "Out to Right Field?"

Skywalker made a good point on the Practical Application of this discussion that I think my simplify things a bit . . .

7-3 Magic of the Right Forearm truly is MAGIC in this case.

The On Plane Right Forearm shows the precise up-and-down direction it and the Clubshaft must take throughout the Stroke (2-J-3). The “Angle of Approach” position of the Right Forearm shows the precise Cross-Line direction the Forearm must take through Impact. It, thereby, precisely locates the visual Impact Point – where the eye must direct the Pressure Point #3 – the inside-aft quadrant of the Ball.

If we go to Fix properly with our Right Forearm On-Plane, we can SEE the Right Forearm Angle of Approach per 7-3. NOW for the good part . . . Since the Right Forearm Angle of Approach is PARALLEL to the STRAIGHT LINE DELIVERY PATH we can get a feeling of these lines in 3 D. BUT per 2-N-0. . .

The Angle of Approach Line, the Delivery Paths (10-23), the Plane Lines (2-F), and their Visual Equivalents (2-J-3) are all inscribed on the face of the Inclined Plane, but appear to the player as if inscribed on a horizontal surface – that is, ON THE GROUND. This is an optical illusion that, when understood and utilized (2-P, 2-J-3).

Would it not follow that if we mentally construct a line PARALLEL to our On Plane Right Forearm at Fix from the Inside Quadrant of the ball that we have just defined going forward, we can define the Angle of Approach "as if inscribed . . .ON THE GROUND?" So is the Angle of Approach not a line parallel to the Right Forearm Angle of Approach?

Thanks!

B

Arm Yourself
 

I started a post yesterday on exactly this, but chickened out and went back to the book. Nice to see Skywalker confirming this. So mustering up some courage, I would say YES to your question. The right forearm can represent the Hitters Angle of Approach, as inscribed on the ground, which will be covered during the procedure.

If I may be even bolder, the right forearm angle shows you the following:
The visual Angle of Approach of the clubhead to the inside-aft quadrant of the ball
The Delivery path of the hands
The Swing plane and top location of the hands

In terms of the statement The On Plane Right Forearm shows the precise up-and-down direction it and the Clubshaft must take throughout the Stroke (2-J-3). Make sure the clubshaft is set up on the plane you want to use at impact fix, e.g. The Turned Shoulder Plane. We have a video of Ben showing the planes at address.

Here comes that big green hand to either slap me on the head or pat me on the back.
I never know...duck Bagger!

Reconciling Angle Of Approach Differentiations
 

1. With the On Line procedure (Arc of Approach), you Trace the true Geometric Plane Line (Basic Delivery Line) with the Sweetspot. With the Cross Line procedure (Angle of Approach), you Cover the Angle of Approach with the Sweetspot. With both procedures, you Trace the selected Line with the Right Forearm and #3 Pressure Point.

2.Yes, 1-L #6 (the On Plane Clubshaft) refers to the Geometric Plane Line. And yes, when using the Angle of Approach procedure, the linear nature of the Hitter's Right Triceps Thrust through Impact drives the Club above this Geometric Plane Line, i.e., into 'right field'. This 'off Geometric Plane' Drive-Out does, in fact, violate the true On Plane Clubshaft requirement of 1-L #6.

However, as long as (1) the Clubhead passes through the same two points (Impact Point and Low Point) located respectively on the Geometric and Low Point Plane Lines and (2) both the Clubshaft and Lag Pressure Point (as directed and supported by the Right Forearm) are correctly aligned (as established at Impact Fix) to this alternate Delivery Line (the Angle of Approach), then the geometrical equivalent of the On Plane Clubshaft has been achieved (2-N-0). And that is all that is required.

Relevant portion of 2-N-0:

The “Delivery Line” procedure completely replaces the geometric Plane Line (2-F) and the Target Line because these were established at Impact Fix (7-8 ) according to the intended Hinge Action (2-J-1) and Stance Line (10-5) requirements, and their control is completely automatic. Both the Lag Pressure Point and the Clubshaft must so relate to the selected Plane Line OR Angle of Approach – to the geometric or the visual – but don’t try to Monitor both at the same time because, though equally dependable, they need not be identical in execution AS LONG AS THE CLUBSHAFT HOLDS A STRAIGHT LINE RELATIONSHIP TO A STRAIGHT LINE – POINTING AT A STRAIGHT LINE.

For visual reference turn the book UPSIDE DOWN and look at pictures 2-C-1 #2B and 2-C-1 #2B. 2-C-1 #2B upside down is the "optical illusion - ON THE GROUND." All that is omitted from 2-C-1 #2B is the Impact Plane Line and the Low Point Plane Line.

Moving on...
 

Thanks Yoda, 12 piece and others for taking part in this discussion. I think the mess I started is more or less cleared up now.

Lets talk about the second point I made that started this thread:

• 7-1, last sentence:
  "The prestressed (bent) Clubshaft (10-19-A) and maximum Swing Radius (10-19-C) are resistances to Impact Decelerations that each must establish before – not during – Impact (2-M-1)."
  
  What bugs me are the terms in parenthesis. Why is the prestressed Clubshaft associated only with Drive Loading (10-19-A), and max Swing Radius associated only to Drag Loading (10-19-C). I thought Swingers should also go into Impact with a prestressed Clubshaft, no? Likewise, Hitters should have max Swing Radius too, no?

I'll guess at it . . .

The heading for 7-1 is GRIPS-BASIC. The sentence that you are questioning is in a paragraph basically talking about "tightness of grip" and required "passive" right elbow for the Swinger and "active" Right Tricepts of the Hitter.

So Swingers are totally dependent on their skill at manipulating Centrifugal Force while Hitters are not.

Pivot Thrust alone (2-K), forfeits Right Arm Thrust (6-B-1).

I would say that since the Swinger forfeits Right Arm Thrust his mainline defence against further Deceleration is Max Swing Radius (Full Lever Extension). Allowing CF to SLING the Clubhead FULLY DOWN PLANE and to FULLY UNCOCK #2. On the other hand, the Hitter is trying to over-ride CF. Properly manipulated, Clubhead Inertia can withstand all the Lag Pressure anyone can generate So his MAIN DEFENSE against deceleration is Right Ticept PUSH against the Clubhead Inertia. Power Package Muscle Power can be almost entirely Right Triceps

Just a guess . . .

It is the difference between longitudinal and radial forces (at the limits of each).

If something is fully longitudinally stressed, it can not be bent. Likewise, if something is radially stressed, it can not be straight because 'any' amount of radial force creates a 'bend', technically speaking.

Does this mean then that a 'pure' swing, pure longitudinal acceleration, would mean no PP#3 feel/lag pressure at follow through? Where a hitter would always be 'bending the string', and a swinger would 'snap it straight, at both arms straight' and have no radial force (lag pressure) at all at that point? The point at which you would feel your "arms coming out of their sockets" to quote Ben (or something along those lines). Miller talks about this feel too.

"The Clubshaft is stressed by the weight of the Clubhead resisting a change in its direction or velocity – which is Acceleration. Acceleration bends the Clubshaft during Radial Acceleration (10-19-A).

Change of direction bends it during Longitudinal Acceleration (10-19-C) which may be, or just include, the Clubhead Lag Pressure Point in addition to its main function of Acceleration Control."

What does that last sentence mean?

It relates to the 'loading' of lag pressure. To the degree that this happens in a swingers motion, this is not 'pure' longitudinal force, but it 'creates' pure longitudinal force at both arms straight.

Technically speaking, a swinger does not 'always' have pure longitudinal force during the motion, because loading will always create 'some' amount of radial pressure. For a swinger this is left wrist 'action'. This is in part why swingers will have less of a feel for lag pressure than hitters do, and why going to 'end' is a key to feeling the load.

Hitters, by contrast, can feel the constant, heavy load against PP#3 quite a bit stronger and certainly more constant through to follow through and should certainly 'feel' like they maintain it as far past impact as possible.