Base of the Neck vs. Through the Head "centers"
 

Ok.....

Let's assume that we KNOW that there should be no SWAY of the 'pivot center.'

So, you can use the "through the head" center or the "base of the neck" center.

Which one has the BEST stroke pattern performance.

I will define this 'performance' in the following way:

A. Best able to create and sustain lag pressue
B. Best able to 'draw' a straight plane line
C. Best able to control hinge action

Got it?

Ok.

Here is my OPINION:

I think creating and sustaining lag pressue is easier with the base of the neck.

I think staying or getting 'on top' (or behind, if you prefer) of the sweetspot with your #3 pressure point—as in Horizontal Hinging—is easier with the base of the neck.

I think performing ANGLED hinge action or vertical hinge action to be easier with the "through the head" center.

If you bend you plane line too much to the left as a rule, you will find it easier to NOT bend it left with the "base of the neck" center.

If you bend the plane line to the right as a rule, , you will find it easier to NOT bend it right with the "through the head" center.

What do ya'll think?

;)

Memorable Advice
 

Too complicated for me, Brian.

I'll just keep doing what Homer told me to do:

"Keep your Head still, pick it up with your Right Forearm and slam it as hard as you want."

Great answer, Lynn.

Simple is always better.

If you do not want to respond to the strengths and weaknessness of these two perfectly 1-L compliant procedures, I completely understand.

But, maybe some of the others will comment.

Is it a 100-0 victory for one method oevr the other? or is there possible advantages to one over the other.

Let's keep this on topic, if possible.:)

Angels Night Out
 

For all but the most adroit, we are into the specious argument of 'how many angels can dance on the head of a pin."

www.bartleby.com/59/4/howmanyangel.html

Keep your Head steady.

It is the First Essential of The Golfing Machine®.

Or, assuming you can tell a difference, keep the 'base of your neck' steady.

Your Body is a Rotor. Your Arms and Club are the Blades. No matter how it is driven, the Left Arm and Club always moves in a circle.

Do what Vardon, Jones, Palmer and Nicklaus were told to do:

"Stand still, and as you take the Club away, let your Body Turn, not Sway."

If you do that, you've got a chance to play this Game well.

If you don't, you better bring a lot of talent and a ton of time to the table.

Because you're doing it the hard way.

Another great answer, Lynn!

But, in case anyone else would like to answer, here is a couple of points to consider about my answer:

If you use the "through the head" pivot center, your swing center—the left shoulder—travels—in a shorter arc on the backstroke.

Also, if you use the "through the head" pivot center, the possiblity for a circle delivery path, becomes far greater than the "base of the neck center."

But, the "through the head" picot center nearly assures the better player that the shoulder turn won't be too flat.

As far as the angles on the pin, I choose to only comment on the thesis of this thread: Is one PERFECTLY still pivot center, TECHNICALLY superior to the other...

...and why?

Inexorably, the adroit betwixt our midst, shall endeavor to formulate a response. :D

Golf's One Unarguable, Universal Fundamental
 

Ch-6 Golf My Way - "Golf's One Unarguable, Universal Fundamental"

Who wrote this - only the greatest player that ever played the game ! The winner of 18 Majors !

He's only the greatest player that ever lived....

Wonderful response Mathew!

I was looking for something a bit more—how do you say—geometric or scientific, than Jack Nicklaus quotes.

But, I LOVE Jack Nicklaus, so should I start listening to all his advice in all 10 of his instruction books?

I thought maybe, Mathew, that you couyld draw one of those little illustrations of yours that will show the superiority of one of the "pivot center" methods.

Not being the roundest ball in the golf bag, I will add the following...

If the base of the neck is the stationary point, why would you want or allow a 20 lb plus object (the head) above that center point to have movement?

From the base of the neck (cv7?) is about 4 to 5 inches away from the center point of the head (cv1/2).

Rotation of the head around the spine (you stationary base neck point) does not cause the either center point to move.

Swaying and bobbing would appear to be acceptable product of base of the neck stationary center point UNLESS it is said to be otherwise.

The definition of swaying would be head movement to either side (toward the target or away). I will admit I am having some difficulty with swaying and a stationary neck base center point becuase of the short distance apart, it is more that head leans over with the ear touching the shoulder.

The definition of bobbing would be the up and down motion of the head.

It seems that either of these movements will be disruptive to the golf stroke, be it just impacting balance or causing unnecessary movements to compensate for the location of this 20 plus lb object that is now dancing around.

So is it really acceptable to having the head swaying and bobbing with the base of the neck being the stationary center?

It seems to me that the if the head is only allowed to rotate and is identified as the stationary point, the base of the neck would remain stationary as well. It would just not be the end or top of the rotational axis.

This all assumes the understanding is that if the base of the neck is choosen as the stationary point, then it can not move per-se. But if it can move then in that case it would not comply with 1-L-1/2.

Good points, Marty!

Try this experiment:

Have a pal hold your head dead still.

Have another hold a finger BARELY above the base of the 'neck bone.'

Make a backstroke.

What happens?

The 'neck bone' moves WAY forward.

What is that, reverse swaying?

I don't know what it is exactly, but it is NOT rotation about a fixed point...

'cause the point is MOVING.

When You Wish...
 

Be careful what you wish for, Brian. :)

We'll have some up soon in the original thread. Remember, that was the one where the really substantive question was asked:

"Does the Pivot have a Center at its top, or should it be allowed to Sway to the right as so much modern instruction would have us believe."

B,

I have no beef with you. But I think you have this debate thing a bit backwards.

No offense meant here but it seems to me that the burden of proof would be in your court. In your above post you have said "in my opinion" and "I think." You are debating in your AWAY jersey. The book has defined the Stationary Post in 1-L and also the stationary head in 2-0. Mr. Kelley provided his supporting evidence. Seems to me for a true debate you would need to provide your evidence as to the above, not Mathew.

Mr. Kelley has given support for his theory. If you think the base of the neck offers better compression in some instances, we need your science. Please don't call that Mandrin dork though :D

Best regards,

B

When you later said in regards to the great pictures Martee made.

This is the first post

Actually this is absolutely incorrect! They are a sequence and now I fixed the frames 'in photoshop' after being scanned badly, we can see quite clearly that they are a match just how far off this line is...

Guess I don't know where the neck bone is, cause yes I can feel the outside move, but it is rotating around. At issue is where is the center point and does it move. Is it the 'thoracic spine rotation center'? Now I did your test sitting down, I was attempting to minimize any movement other than the shoulders, don't know if that will make a difference.

The more I read what you write, I guess I am of the opinion that you don't subscribe to 1-L-1/2 cause you keep introducing movements and seem to be supporting your position that even the base of the neck movement is not only permitted but desired.

[quote]Hmmmmm No.....

Your yellow line goes right through Sam's Shoulder Blade...lol

Now, I knew there would be no picture with lines on it that would prove/convince you to you what im about to show you - so I took extreme measures ....lol



Now I don't believe you can argue with this line right ?....

Ok, lets look at the backstroke...



Notice how at address the spine is tilted towards the target and how the spine leans away from the target....

Now look at the photo of snead again beside me....



Is this supposed to be cleaning up my work, or you just not doing your homework ?

I would like to keep this thread in this thread, Lynn, sir.

I am looking for an answer of any mechanical validity of what happens to the PATTERN and what happens to the club in both methods and if there are any advantages to either.

In this fresh thread, where I started a topic that I could control—somewhat—I have no problem asking, listening, questioning, etc.

If anyone wishes to put me in a box, this is the box I would like to be in.

....mechanical validity....no tricks, no obscure quotes, no tour player opinion...

Just fresh science.



:)

I am looking at your very well done pictures, Mathew...

Forget Snead, what are you trying to show?

The correct move or the incorrect one in your mind?

Thanks for the response in advance,

Brian Manzella.

Private Dancer
 

Hey, who needs all that...

We've got Mathew nekkid! :D

I need an answer to my question, if you please...

let me rephrase...

Matthew, is the backswing you made in the shirt-less pics, the model one in your opinion, or an incorrect one, in your opinion?

As of yet there is no box because we have not seen any "fresh science" to support your thesis . . .

I can hear ole Mandrin revin' up the slide rule.

Mathew . . .you must be commended on your grooming habits. Do you wax? Just kidding very illustrative pics as always!

I simply will not get off topic.

and right now, the floor is Mathew's.

and the answer to my question is.....?

Mathew nice work but as I sit here ready to go to bed, one has to ask oneself the question, Are these the images you want floating around in your head as you go to bed? =;

I suggest Lynn have you work with a model, how about we have Lynn get you connected up with say Natalie Gulbis and you can do the technical stuff, she can model it?:D

Nice work...

Well....

Let me comment on Mathew's shirt-less pics:

PERFECT!

Mathew,

Your backswing pivot is simply great.

Really. A+

I would love any golfer to do it exactly as is.


12 piece,

I made my points in the opening post of this thread...

noone has said anything like this:

If you keep your head still your #3 accumulator angle has less travel in relation to the axis tilt required with the stationary head pivot center (an example).

Got it?

Paging Natalie Gulbis
 

Good idea, Martee. I do believe that would blow us through the 2,000 member mark before our one-year anniversary (next week)!

Move over, Homer...

Here comes Natalie!

Later you asked for

Maybe I have missed something but I still don't understand that if you the stationary center as the Head, why you would not receive all the benefits you claim you have with the stationary neck?

Is there some position for the Head to be in other than inline with the neck that has this benefit?

I definitely see the value in using the base of the skull (the head) over the neck as you don't want this 20 plus lb object flopping around, disrupting your balance, your eye alignment, etc.

The head as a component isn't an active component, or at least isn't suppose to be, so for it have negative results, I would assume that it has become an active disruptive component.

Mechanically, Science, etc. all would support the supposition that anchoring (so to speak, maintaining a central position) at the ends is superior to anchoring away from the ends. It reduces or minimizes the potential for variations, wobbling, etc. while allowing rotational drive to achieve its maximum on a predictable path.

Hey Lynn,

What do you think about Mathew's shirt-less backswing?

Good? Bad? could be better?

Way to stay on topic....:( :confused:

Good night all...

Truth In Drawing
 

I think he proved his point:

The spine goes where the spine goes.

And it goes just where he said it went, not through the right shoulder blade.

I will leave ya'll with this.

I once taught a guy with a FUSED neck.

HE kept his head DEAD STILL to his shoulders, and when he made a backswing, he had to rotate his EYES to see the ball.

That means, when we make a backswing, we are ROTATING OUR HEADS 90° to our shoulders.

It is hard to do perfect.

Thanks for letting me state my ideas.

Hit 'em straight.

Brian

To me,

I think Mathew rotated around his neck. (made my day!)

But, that's just me...

and my un-educated eyes.;)

P.S. Martee and Mathew, you guys argued every point against me and The Golfing Machine back in the day, and now ya'll are sold out Homer-ites.

Funny huh?

Fix your Tripod
 

Hey Brian you were only about half a heads width out....lol

Did I do better with this one Mathew,

and the George Coleman estate pics


This is a draw swing. Case in point.

Funny is that I asked questions and responded to your questions with my observations and limited knowledge and this is the response I get?

You might wish to go back and review my points I argued along with why after the infamous 'Hitting Down' thread on another forum you left and my posting went down to about nil on that forum.

Regarding your latest drawing, I know this may sound picky but and I really have issue with some of these photos being used to be used for technical discussions, but...

1. Maybe it is just me, but the ground seems to slope up from left to right (viewers side), which says that the line going upfrom the ground should be sloped. JMO.

2. Here where I am probably not on the same page with everyone else as I did post a thread (no responses) with questions about this topic in general. This Tripod (really a Bi-pod) concept seems to had to have the head directly in the center of the stance if I understand your drawings and comments? Where does this come from as opposed to have a stationary post between the feet?

3. The other question I had and no answers are is this triangle that is being drawn, is it an isosceles triangle? If the apex is to be between the feet, it can't be a right triangle.

Your yellow line appears closer to the swing center than how the triangle is placed and indicates relatively little movement, whereas the red triangle seems to be floating.

I think we have some communication errors here starting with this triangle/tripod/bipod representation and the apex location to the base.

I am trying to understand your position of the back of the neck vs the base of the skull and what movement of the head is then considered acceptable and what movements of the head then require compensations.

too funny!!
 

woohoo!! lol

My humble opinion..
 

Three main thoughts here.

1- This is a good discussion for those that are deep into TGM as long as they can respond to each other without hatefulness and intentional malice. It should come with a disclaimer though that those new to TGM should avoid reading it all costs though because I read the ealier thread similiar to this one and was going to quit TGM altogether and look for another method of improvement until Ted pm'd me with some great encouragement (Thanks again, Ted - you're a super guy).

2- I think it has been thoroughly established at this point that both sides of the argument are going to believe what they are going to believe and no argument, discussion, name calling, pictures and/or illustrations are going to change their mind at this point. So if neither side is going to change their mind - what can the discussion further accomplish except to deteriorate to the point that friendships are damaged. Now come on, you guys know that you get along in real life. You've done seminars together and know each other very well. I've heard several people on various forums talk about how they've met either both or one of you and the discussion is almost always about how nice the meeting was.

3- That being said, I offer my humble opinion even though I hate to further this thread along for my fear that it will take the aforementioned turn for the worst eventually. I am not an AI or an instructor. Heck, I'm not even that great of a player (lack of practice kills me). However for what it's worth, I am of above average intelligence with an IQ 4 points short of being able to be in mensa(dang it!!). I believe that when the head is stationary that a good golf swing can be performed but the head is allowed to swivel (not sway). I believe this is most critical at the top of the backswing and during impact as it looks to me like an awful lot of good tour players may sway ever so slightly on backswing and dip their head slightly on downswing or right after impact but have it very still at top of backswing and during impact. BUT, I also believe that to have the swing thought of having to keep your head stationary will inhibit most if not all sway, bob, swivel or anything else going on with the head while the swing thought of keeping the base of the neck steady will allow for some swivel which is needed by most players to achieve a complete shoulder turn.

Just one ole' po boys opinion,

Rob

P.S. I do believe that Brian is a firm believer that there must be a stationary post and Lynn mentioned on the earlier thread that he believed that a stationary post was required but that he perferred to use the head because it was easier for the player to tell when it moved. So, in this sense, both sides are correct.

I actually really like the points you made in this first post Brian.

Especially the bit about Horizontal/Angled Hinging.

...

OK.

I realize Homer is the man and all that.....he uh- KINDA knew his stuff.

But, I must say...

I personally like how Brian is going about all this..... I like a lot of his points and how he is explaining them. I like to hear real "why" answers.

I think anyone can just agree with Homer....and know the book....

...and you know what....for a lot of people, that COULD suffice as the be-all-end-all.....but I like to hear a little "why," personally.

And I really do think Brian is making a good argument.....it's hard to argue against Homer (is it really against him though?), but I think Brian actually has a legit debate here.

I don't really want to take sides and get yelled at over here.....so I hope someone appreciates where I'm going with this.....we can all learn from this whole discussion I think.

Just a reminder to keep this a debate and not a fight.

Taster's Choice
 

1. I teach The Golfing Machine® as written and taught by Homer Kelley.

2. Homer Kelley in 1-L #1 defined the Stationary Post as the player's Head.

3. Homer Kelley in 1-L #2 stated that the Stationary Post could turn (Pivot) but that it didn't Sway or Bob.

3. Homer Kelley in 9-1 illustrated that the Head can turn and not violate the concept.

4. Homer Kelley in 2-0 labeled the Stationary Head as the First Essential. He did not label it an Imperative because, as he said, "You can move your Head and still play good golf."

5. Homer Kelley in The Glossary defined the Stationary Head as the deliberate choice for the Pivot Center instead of 'between the shoulders.'

6. Homer Kelley told me personally that he chose the Head because "if you move your Head you can see more under the Ball." He also said there could be problems with using 'between the shoulders' as a center, but he did not elaborate. That discussion was recorded.

Now, the really important thing about the Pivot Center is that you have one. Few golfers do. To that end, Homer Kelley gave us a choice of two, but clearly he preferred the Head. Given everything else he has been right about, I'll go with that for now.

Why...Not!
 

Re-read the post, Birdie.

You will find five opinions.

You will find zero 'whys.'