Intricacies of Hitting and Swinging
 

Is Drag Loading and Drive Loading really what differentiates a Swinger from a Hitter? I have come to the conclusion that the answer is no.

It is possible for you to Drag Load at Startdown and still Push the Club through Impact, so you will ultimately be classified as a Hitter. Or you can Drive Load but Pull the Club with Left Arm Centrifugal Power, hence you're a Swinger. I believe the former is actually quite common on Tour.

Any comments?

drive and drag
 

I would say the prior is 4 barrel hitting, but you can't pull and push at the same time (reference 2-M-3 but correct the typo error of Pressure point #4 to #1 as found in 10-19-C). Per 10-19-A and 10-19-C, I'd have to say that it does differentiate somewhat as they are characteristics found in the first paragraph. But, "true" hitting and "true" swinging (7-2) are only this (and the only place to get this was from Yoda):

"The 'true' swinger allows centrifugal force to align both the clubface and the clubshaft. The 'manipulated hands swinger' allows centrifugal force to align the clubshaft but not the clubface. The 'true' hitter allows centrifugal force to align neither."

I have variations from 12-1-0 that create the 12-4-Ted, but I'm still creating the force with the right triceps through impact. For an example of variation, impact address gives me a better feel for my impact alignments. So, I use it. I would be offended if someone called me a swinger. ;) I'm a 4 barrel hitter. :cool:

Differentiating...
 

I don't believe hitting and swinging can be differentiated solely on a single element.

Per 1-F "This, alone, does not properly separate "Hitters" and "Swingers" because it is possible to "Swing" the Club with either Arm but only the Right Arm can actually "Hit" "

Per 10-19-0 "Hinge Action does NOT differentiate Hitting and Swinging."

What properly differentiates Hitting and Swinging are in 6-H-0. Factors rather than a single factor properly separates them.

6-H-0-E "Associate the following with "Hitting""
6-H-0-F "Associate the following with "Swinging""

6-h-0
 

6-H-0 is a good place to spend about ten years.

Sorry, but I have to respectfully disagree with you.

You can mix Swinging components/procedures with Hitting components/procedures -- some people call this 'Switting'. But you are either a Hitter or Swinger per my first post on this thread.

Wow...does that mean the use of Accumulator #4 for a Hitter necessarily mean you're Drag Loading? Exciting stuff :p

If I had to pick on 'single' difference between hitting and swinging, I would say 'rotation'.

That said, as Homer defined them, there really isn't any one item beyond thrust vs CF.

Differentiating The Pivot's Role In Lag Loading
 

No. The key is in what the Pivot Loads during the Start Down. Hitting, the Pivot Loads the Right Elbow to Drive the Club through Impact. Swinging, the Pivot Loads the Left Wrist to Drag it through.

Difference in Opinion
 

No problems Leo...I was referring to the "pure" models. :mrgreen:

Isn't that what Tomasello is suggesting in the Australian video? It's similar at least.

don’t know the yellow book well enough to know if this is totally TGM compliant, but here is how i view swinging vs. hitting:

first, i think it is helpful to look at the motion at shoulder level…so, grab a club and set up…then bring the club up to shoulder level and make your stroke…if you swing, at some point your trail hand should rotate to be palm skyward with the clubshaft and clubhead still roughly parallel to the plane of the shoulders…the butt end will be the closet part of the club to the “ball” and is the part you pull back toward the “ball” until release when the palm rotates back from skyward (parallel to the plane) to targetward (roughly perpendicular to the plane) and the clubface to the “ball”…if you hit, you keep the trail palm facing the “ball” and rotate the clubshaft and clubhead (around PP#1) to be roughly perpendicular to the plane of the shoulders and PP#1 is what you push back to the “ball” until release rotates the clubshaft and clubhead back to parallel to the plane and to the “ball”

-hcw

Turn, Roll, Release, Wrist Action...!
 

You have described the Swinger's Standard Wrist Action (10-18-A) and its Sequenced Release (4-D-0)which requires the Left palm to be Swivelled On Plane during Start Up. It remains On Plane with the palm riding the wheel rim until the Release Swivel takes place, rotating the Shaft back on to its own Plane, ready to apply the selected Hinge Action (usually Dual Horizontal).

The Hitter has identical Left Hand to the Plane relationship as the Swinger at the Top, however it got there in a different manner. Instead of a abrubt Start Up Swivel, a Hitter turns his Left Wrist gradually just like an Angled Hinging motion. And so it comes back down into Release in the same way, a Simulataneous Release Motion.

Left Wrist Action and the Right Forearm...
 

For the hitter, the left wrist turns and rolls not on its own accord but because of the turning of the body and the motion of the arms.

Different Left Wrist Actions produces different Right Forearm Positions at the Top Per 7-3.

"For Hitting (10-19-A), the Right Forearm should be precisely in-line with-and directly opposed to-the motion of the On Plane Loading Action (7-22) of the entire Primary Lever Assembly (6-A) not just the Clubshaft, and this alignment maintained through Impact (2-J-3,4-D).

For Swinging (10-19-C) the Right Forearm should be precisely in-line with - and directly opposed to - the motion of the On Plane Loading Actino of the Secondary Lever Assembly (the Clubshaft) and this alignment maintained through Impact."

In English, this means that at the end of the stroke, the hitter will (should) have the Right Forearm perpendicular to the Left Forearm and the swinger will (should) have the Right Forearm perpendicular to the clubshaft.

This is a valuable checkpoint to see if you are actually executing the desired Left Wrist Action correctly.

My Way? The Way?
 

Tong, you moved to the top of the list with your studies of the Golfing Machine- I would suggest one clarification to your post.

1) Tongzilla Quote "You have described the Swinger's Standard Wrist Action (10-18-A) and its Sequenced Release (4-D-0)which requires the Left palm to be Swivelled On Plane during Start Up."

Definition #1: Start-up is 8-4- the very initial stage of motion between address and the backstroke.

Definition #2: Swivelling is an independent forearm rotation.

You won't find anything in the Golfing Machine that "requires" the left palm be swivelled "on plane" during start up- for swinging (or hitting). If you want it to be "My Way" (page VII) then great, but not "The Way" (page VII). And even that particular "My Way" has potential issues of concern- not setting up a swinging motion- the primary one. A position golf ideology in regards to the left wrist - the secondary one, (specifically in regards to having the left wrist "on-plane" at some specific location during the start-up/backstroke). 7-18, 10-18 cover this area.

In summary, it's easy to get too specific at any stage in understanding the Golfing Machine. So it's a process of understanding the specifics and then drawing back and making sure that you haven't destroyed the big picture while painting the small one. Mr. Kelley was the ultimate "concept man" in that regard. Good Luck in that journey!

Swivels, Palm Turning, and Plane
 

Great to see you posting again, Mike :p

Lets clarify and be more precise about what a Swivel is.
A Swivel is a rotation of the Left Wrist from a Turned position to a Vertical position or from a Vertical position to a Turned position. The former is what we usually call “Standard Wrist Action on Downstroke”, or more commonly known as a “Release Swivel”. The latter is known as “Standard Wrist Action on Backstroke” or “Start Up Swivel".

What does “Turned” mean? Per 4-C-2, “When TURNED…the left palm faces directly toward that Plane."

Putting both these concepts together, this means the left palm is “Swiveled On Plane”, per my previous post.

So what the Start Up Swivel does is to put the Left Arm Flying Wedge On Plane, so it can remain On Plane until Release, just before the Release Swivel takes the Left Arm Flying Wedge (or the left palm) Off Plane to get into position to apply the selected Hinge Action.

With a Flat Left Wrist, the palm of the Left Hand must be On Plane for the Club to remain On Plane.

PS: photos can be deceiving!

Do you think a Swinger can feel or should focus on Release Swivel into Hinge Action? Seems like things happen WAY too fast to focus on Release Swivel in a full power stroke?

I know this is the way it works, but if somebody is actually working on this could it lead to irratic alignments of the Clubface?

That's why you should practice Swivelling and Hinge Action in sloooow motion with a racquet first. You'll be surprised at how your alignments will leak through to your golf game. Also do lots of chips and pitches (haven't you heard that one before ;) )

Tong,
I respectfully disagree...more below...
This is a common misconception of the essence of Hitting/Swinging. Loading, as in Drag/Drive, is defined by how we accelerate (or load) the clubshaft (or secondary lever assembly). If one begins with dragging - any opposing movement, such as driving radially (or crosswise) against the shaft will cause the shaft to lose it's initial flex (or load)...and the lag. It inevitable. The shaft will react to the acceleration method - either longitudinally or radially - and any deviation will cause the shaft to 'catch up'. Same with beginning with drive loading and then trying to change to Drag.

Don't be misled by what appears to be happening per 6-H-0. There are all kinds of compensations - Azinger swings with no swivel and a hitting type motion. But that 'punch shot', no matter appearance, doesnt negate his acceleration method.

Let me know if there is any fog on this issue or if I am offbase.

Patrick

Okay...Okay....say hello to my little friend. (just kidding).

Boy Tong, I am starting to look like I have a vendetta! I dont, trust me. I love your enthusiasm and posts.

However...once again...I respectfully disagree.
May I ask where in the book your reference is for this? The best of my knowledge is in 2-G, the 'true rotation of the hands' in impact with no relation or reference to 'turned' to 'vertical'. Moreover, Swivel is not mentioned in 4-C. 4-C are specific Wrist positions - versus 'Swivel' which is more general and not limited to specificity in that context.
This isnt necessarily for you....but....can anyone show me where 'start up' swivel is in the book? Just curious. Not that its not in it - I just dont remember it, nor can I find it (yes - I have my book now!).

Disagree once more. If the entire left forearm wedge is onplane (the entire left arm) - the left shoulder must be onplane...and on the backstroke, I feel it would need to be above plane (due to no axis tilt)....

Again...not trying to nitpick, and love the posts, etc. But in a public forum, much can be mistrued. And - if I am wrong - which Lynn has pointed out on multiple occasions on TGM forum - I am all for learning!!!

Patrick

Be like a Berean...
 

Hi Patrick,

I love the way you question things.
Too many people take it for granted that whatever has "been around" has to be correct.

Nothing could be further from the truth. As we have all found out in our own lives from time to time, a myth usually develops a life of its own and then before we even realise it, we take it to be the "Truth."

Instead, we all need to adopt an attitude just like yours. It is like in the book of Acts where "the Bereans searched the scriptures daily to see if it were so."

Thanks for the reminder!

No Combpa...


Thank you for reminding me why I am here. Only in the TGM world can we be lucky enough to have the likes of Tong...Lynn....and you.

Keeps me coming back!

About the left arm being on plane. Here is an article. Enjoy!


A three-dimensional examination of the planar nature of the golf swing.

Coleman SG, Rankin AJ.

PESLS Department, University of Edinburgh, Edinburgh, UK. simon.coleman@ed.ac.uk

Previous planar models of the downswing in golf have suggested that upper limb segments (left shoulder girdle and left arm) move in a consistent fixed plane and that the clubhead also moves only in this plane. This study sought to examine these assumptions. Three-dimensional kinematic analysis of seven right-handed golfers of various abilities (handicap 0- 15) was used to define a plane (named the left-arm plane) containing the 7th cervical vertebra, left shoulder and left wrist. We found that the angles of this plane to the reference horizontal z axis and target line axis (parallel to the reference x axis) were not consistent. The angle to the horizontal z axis varied from a mean of 133 degrees (s = 1 degrees) at the start of the downswing to 102 degrees (s = 4 degrees) at impact, suggesting a "steepening" of the left-arm plane. The angle of the plane to the target line changed from - 9 degrees (s = 16 degrees) to 5 degrees (s = 15 degrees) during the same period, showing anticlockwise (from above) rotation, although there was large inter-individual variation. The distance of the clubhead from the left-arm plane was 0.019 m (s = 0.280 m) at the start at the downswing and 0.291 m (s = 0.077 m) at impact, showing that the clubhead did not lie in the same plane as the body segments. We conclude that the left arm and shoulder girdle do not move in a consistent plane throughout the downswing, and that the clubhead does not move in this plane. Previous models of the downswing in golf may therefore be incorrect, and more complex (but realistic) simulations should be performed.

hmmm, well at least it looks like i'm on the right track!:-)

Start Up Swivel
 

Tongzilla,

Is the Startup Swivel a rotation only, or rotation AND wristcock? I'm having trouble seeing how a rotation only would keep the clubhead on plane.

So, is it below plane? Wouldn't an on plane backswing motion require Swivel (back and in) and wristcock (up)?

This is where I got the references. But my statement does require a bit of 'dot-joining'.

4-D-0:
"Normally, only Swingers with their Standard Wrist Action (10-18-A) “Swivel” –- that is, actually rotate the Left Wrist –- through Release into its Vertical Position for Impact." [bold by tongzilla]

In conjunction with 10-18-A:
Standard Wrist Action
"With this procedure with Wrist is Turned and Cocked (FCT) during the Backstroke which requires that it be Rolled and Uncocked during the Release. Only where this procedure is used, do the Hands “Swivel” into Hinge Action Position." [bold by tongzilla]

Also definitions in 4-C-1/2, which I can't be bothered to type at the moment :) . But briefly, Turned means "left palm faces directly toward that Plane.

As per above, it this needs to be done twice -- once going back, and once before Impact. Which is why I've called them Startup and Release Swivels. Even though the actual phrase "Startup Swivel" isn't in the book (but Release Swivel is).

Yes, I've made a blunder here -- more specifically, the Left Shoulder must be On Plane if the entire Left Arm Flying Wedge is On Plane also. But clearly the Left Shoulder is almost never On Plane at the Top. But how can one reconcile with the above?

PS: Someone who should be joining this discussion hasn't said anything yet ;)

Tong...

Thank you for the clarification on 'start up' swivel, I appreciate it.

-Patrick

shoulder girdle
 

Thanks for the insight Henning.

"Three-dimensional kinematic analysis of seven right-handed golfers of various abilities (handicap 0- 15) was used to define a plane (named the left-arm plane) containing the 7th cervical vertebra, left shoulder and left wrist."

Maybe those guys at Edinburgh would have got better results by using something other than C7 as the pivot centre ...but you're probably far ahead of me ;) .

wrist rotation
 

I'm a new contributor and an anatomy/physiology nut along with GSEM and PGA affiliation; I am compelled to clarify that wrists cannot rotate. They can only flex, extend, adduct, abduct, or circumduct from standard anatomical position. I have trouble understanding GM terminology. Only the whole arm or forearm can rotate. Forearm rotation is termed supination or pronation and whole arm rotation is termed either internal or external rotation or, in some circles, lateral or medial rotation. So is so called wrist rotation a form of forearm rotation or whole arm rotation. Mechanical advantage suggests that forearm rotation is great for opening jars and manipulating most faucets from hot to cold or on to off but not so great for manipulating a golf club. Whole arm rotation is much more massive, powerful, and precise than forearm rotation during a golf swing. Please explain or reply if my words provoke anyone.

I Do And I Know
 

Right you are, EdZ.

Rotation -- Gyroscopic Action -- is created by both Swinger and Hitter. The difference between the two lies in how this Rotation (of the orbiting Club) is created:

Centrifugal Body Momentum Throw-Out Action (Swinger) versus Muscular Right Triceps Drive-Out Action (Hitter).

Once you Feel the difference...

All debate ends.

Why?

Because you know.

Hey coophitter...

Welcome to LBG. Maybe you would like to tell us more about yourself?:D

i don't have the book with me but as i recall in the picture definitions turning is pronation of the lead forearm and supination of the trail...rolling is the opposite...this is the basis of Accum#3 action (IMHO) while the whole arm rotation of the lead arm you describe is the basis of Accum#4 action (again IMHO)...

-hcw

coophitter
 

Hello Slinger, I'm a golf instructor in Jacksonville Beach, FL. I went through GSEB testing with Jim Surber who studied and earned AI certification under Ben Doyle and George Kelnhofer. I earned GSEM certification via 4 weeks of intense frustrating training with Tom Tomasello who seemed to always contradict what I learned through the Doyle, Kelnhofer, Surber lineage. Anyway, for me, Jim Surber 14 years ago was a most loyal and affable friend, whom I regrettably can't locate, who nevertheless took me from a 3 handicap to an 8 - while Tomasello - an irascible motormouth, took me to scratch or better 12 years ago once I opened my mind to his contradictions. I became a right arm swinger or hitter whose lineage, in my opinion, dates back to the great Harry Vardon and has survived and thrived through the study and applied work of Tommy Armour, Joe Norwood, John Jacobs, and sometimes Butch Harmon, Hank Haney, David Leadbetter, and many other instructors who often, in desperation, tell desperate golfers to go ahead and hold the club firmly with particular left hand fingers as well as particular right hand fingers and then figure out how to swing through or bash through the ball with the right arm. In all strokes from drive to putt, hold with the left and swing or bash through with the right, and if you can master and monitor preselected horizontal, angled, or vertical hinge action, the ball will often come very close to obeying your computer's intended ball flight.

Hello HCW, I replied to Slinger with a bit about my background and I reply to you now with thanks for the clarity you provided regarding supination and pronation. Rarely is the word supination mentioned in the annals of golf instruction yet if both hands are holding the club snugly, pronation of one forearm will be simultaneously accompanied by supination of the other and vice versa. I've always observed however that forearm rotation independent, beyond, and faster(rpm and mph)than whole arm rotation succeeds only as a corective measure or remedy for an off plane near the top, at the top, or start down off plane condition or it serves great purpose through impact for specialty shots. Actually forearm rotations can serve or disserve a golfer in so many ways that I don't feel my language is adequate to describe what I'm trying to convey. Anyway, thanks for the clarity and rare addition of the term "supination" in golf lexicon.

Wow tremendous experience, thanks...I look forward to learning from you.

Hi Coophitter,

Welcome to the forum!

I'm really interested in your experience with Tom Tomasello. I'm not sure if you have seen them, but there are a bunch of videos of Tom on this site in the Gallery section, which have certainly been helpful to me, and I'm sure to others here.

I'd be keen to hear details on the procedure Tom taught you. If you don't mind, a couple of questions I haven't really figured out from watching the videos mentioned above.

(1) In some of his videos (The 'Australian' series) Tom talks about the left hip pulling behind and the pivot not stopping through the shot. But in others (The 'Myrtle Beach' series)he seems to suggest a much more quiet body - more as if the hips get somewhat open and then are pulled to the finish (facing the target) by the momentum of the arms. Which of these (if either) were you taught?

(2) Did Tom teach you a longitudinal pull of the clubshaft from the top/end. Again, I think this is explicit in the 'Australian' series, but less so in the 'Myrtle Beach' series?

Any help you could offer, or any other insights, would be much appreciated!

Kind regards,
Chris

anatomically "correct"?
 

hi coop,
glad to help...i'm no TGM expert by any means, but "supination and pronation" have been part of my training and it is useful for me to translate HK's terms to such anatomical standards (but probably isn't or even is confusing for a lot of folks, just depends on what you are used to)...cheers!

-hcw

Hi, Chris. Tomasello told me about longitudinal acceleration but he taught me an immediate radial and vertical uncocking of the right arm to begin the downswing and told me to do absolutely as little as possible with my body except to follow the flight of the ball immediately after impact with my eyes. He said I would instinctively and quickly plant pressure under both feet (the sit) to facilitate the throw and not to worry about it. He also told me extensor action would keep the right arm from straightening out too early as long as I only allowed my left wrist to uncock in line with the left arm and didn,t let the right wrist flex forward. Then he taught me about the various hinge actions. A horizontal hinge action would definitely pull my whole body onto my left foot post impact yet angled and vertical wouldn't as much. Even though video would show that my left knee separated from my right to put pressure under my left foot to set up the throw, Tomasello admonished me to throw that club straight into the ground prior to altering the pose of my body and to stay on that right side until the throw pulled me onto my left foot. He did say to really let the body be pulled though. That's all I still do and if you read Harry Vardon's The Gist of Golf, that is what he tells you to do to start the downswing. I hope this clears things up. No body muscling before the the throw. Only a slight brace will occur under both feet to set it up as all energy comes first from the earth, Hope this explains things somewhat for you.

Coophitter,

It's great to have a Tomasello student on board who was able to develop and perfect the right arm swinging procedure that Tomasello taught to golfers around the world.

Especially liked the Harry Vardon comparison/comment...


ChrisNZ,

Tommy handed me the Australia tape as we parted ways after my three day school with him back in the fall of 1993. I have probably watched the Aussie video 500 times or more and I can tell you that the Aussie video and the Myrtle Beach video have Tommy teaching a quiet body approach. On the lesson tee, I asked Tommy where did he come up with the right arm startdown move...Tommy said, 7-3....The MAGIC OF THE RIGHT FOREARM...thanks Coophitter for confirming the legitimacy of the Tomasello approach...which is in the book under “Right arm swing”….See 7-19. Also, Homer Kelley did not have a problem with right arm swinging...

DG