Downstroke shoulder lag
 

In 7-13 Mr.Kelley talks about shoulder turn and downstroke shoulder lag. "Keep that right shoulder "back" but also "down" (on plane)"
Does this mean the right shoulder would have a dragging, passive feel through impact? Accomplished how? I had always thought of driving the right shoulder to the ball. BTW I'm a swinger.

Yes stilltrying,

Please take a look at 10-13-D and the accompanying pictures. This is what the right shoulder should be doing on the downstroke.

Anything other than "back" and "down" will mean that you are "roundhousing" per 2-N-0 and "run out of right arm" per 7-13 and have no follow through per 8-11 and 6-H-C.

What do we mean by "back" and "down"?

They have to do with Plane Angle and Attack Angle, because per 7-13, "When the Shoulder moves on the same Downstroke Plane as the Hands, it provides its greatest support and its best guidance to the stroke."

Please see 2-C-0 in this respect: "Your main lines of defense are the Flat Left Wrist, Hinge Action...and a Three Dimensional Downstroke - that is, DOWNward (Attack Angle), AND OUTward (Plane Angle) AND FORward (Approach Angle)..."

Referencing 10-13-D #3, which is a down the line perspective, the right shoulder stays "back" and did not roundhouse over the plane line.

From a face on perspective per the pictures from 8-7 to 8-11, the right shoulder works down and then below the left shoulder, not stay level with or go higher than the left shoulder.

Very nice Captain Silly Puddy!

Right Shoulder Lag, Drag and Thrust
 

Stilltrying,

Thank you for your support of our site over this past year. Your posts always inspire constructive thinking about the Golf Stroke, and we appreciate your contributions.

In the above Private Message to me, you asked for help in reconciling the Feel of Lag and Drag in the Downstroke Shoulder Turn with its role in supplying the initial Down Plane Thrust of the Power Package. In fact, the core concepts of Lag, Drag and Thrust constitute Step Two of the Power Package Sequence of Operation (6-0) -- Power Loading (6-B-0).

During the Start Down, the Thrust of the leading Body Turn and its Accelerating Right Shoulder transports the lagging Arms and Club Down Plane (6-K-0). This Action creates the Clubhead Lag Pressure that the Accumulators (via the Hands per 6-G-0 and 6-P-0) will propel toward Impact (7-22). This Load is sensed as a Drag on the Pressure Points employed. The Right Shoulder, having been placed On Plane by the Backstroke Pivot, remains On Plane by Turning directly toward the Ball.

The important thing is that, having Loaded the Lag, the Body Turn then continues to lead the Power Package throughout the Downstroke. This move -- On Plane Body Momentum Transfer -- transmits the Pivot Motion to the Arms (7-13) and thus constitutes both Aiming and Thrust.

However, a vicious Thrust is not required and, in fact, can be disruptive enough to cause Clubhead Throwaway (7-20). This is true even when applying Maximum #4 Accumulator Power, i.e., maximum Shoulder Turn Thrust against Pressure Point #4 (where the Left Arm contacts the side of the chest) during the Start Down (6-B-4-A). Every player has a top Turning Speed (2-M-3) and hence Handspeed (7-20), and no amount of violent effort will change it much. So, after supplying the initial Acceleration of the Power Package, the Body need only continue to lead in order to maintain its place in the Downstroke Release Sequence (6-M-1).

To grasp this concept, visualize yourself running toward a distant object. How long will it take you to reach top speed? Once you've reached this speed, can you do anything more -- pump your arms harder, twist your torso violently or even grunt louder -- to make yourself run any faster? No. And so it is with 'extra effort' and the Pivot Motion.

Regarding Feel, the lagging Arms, Hands and Club put a drag on the leading Right Shoulder, and this Feel should be sustained until the Release of the Power Package Accumulator Lag (Out-of-Line condition of the employed Power Package Components). However, just as with the Clubhead Lag (trailing Clubhead Inertia), the Pivot Lag (Lag and Drag of the Pivot Train) is never 'Released' (6-B-0). This gives the Stroke its Maximum Radius (from the Feet to the Sweetspot) and makes the Club very 'heavy' (Effective Clubhead Mass per 2-M-2-2) and much more able to resist the Deceleration Force of Impact.

Nice description Yoda.

In fact, the Swinger's massive rotor (Pivot) needs to slow down -- not acclerating or staying at constant speed -- for Momentum Transfer to take place from the Body to the Arms and Hands. This is how the Left Arm gets blasted off the left side of one's chest, so Centrifugal Force can be 'set up' to work its magic. If there was constant acceleration or even constant speed of the Pivot, the Swinger would never be letting Centrifugal Force take over the Rhythm of the Downstroke and there would not be a slowing, overtaking process happening joint by joint that is necessary for Momentum Transfer.

All this is quite counter-intuitive because we think how it is possible for something to slow down to speed something else up. Maybe this is the science behind one of the cliches we often here from our friends and golf magazines: "swing easy if you want to hit it further".

I agree Yoda, but can you clarify by what you mean if Pivot Lag were to be Released?

when?
 

"In fact, the Swinger's massive rotor (Pivot) needs to slow down"

At what point would this happen? Am I correct in assuming at this point CF would take over and then pull us around to finish?

Thanks.

Disconnecting the Pivot Train
 

If the Pivot Lag were to be Released, the Swing Radius would stop at the 'break.' For example, if the Shoulders were to overtake the Hips, then the Swing Radius would extend only from the Shoulders to the Sweetspot. And not from the Feet to the Sweetspot.

Just follow Yoda's advice and you'll do fine :o

Yes, the momentum of the club will carry you to the finish.

You want to develop an instant acceleration of the Hips from the Top of the Stroke. This sets up a smooth and dependable Rhythm for the rest of the Stroke. Note that this does not mean you should violently spin your hips to the finish, in fact, quite the opposite. I personally like to associate this with the feeling of tapping a flywheel, because you only need a light 'push' and it keeps spinning forever (well...almost). You don't try to turn the flywheel by guiding it with your hands.

And remember to return your focus to your Hands, its Lag Pressure Point in relation to the Plane Line, once this motion has been identified and reduced to a Feel Equivalent and fully integrated into your Total Motion.

Thanks for your insight Yoda.

Ben Hogan's 'Flip' Of the Hips
 

Homer Kelley would have agreed, Leo. He came to understand 'Instant Acceleration' Hip Action and Drag Loading (10-19-C) by studying the swing of Ben Hogan. In describing Hogan's action, he used the phrase "'flip' of the hips."

This lightning quick movement Loaded the Lag and set up the Centrifugal Downstoke Sequence. But, beyond that little "flip," Homer maintained that nothing more was required of the Body other than that it continue to lead the Power Package Down Plane.

Thank you Mr.Blake this last paragraph clarified a great deal for me.

Are you saying there is never an overtaking rate of the Pivot components...just always lagging?

I agree that the "massive rotor" slows down in order for the "Momentum Transfer to take place from the Body to the Arms and Hands. But, beware not to do it intentionally, which might cause early release of the "lag".

The "lag" (from the pivot to the clubhead) should be intentionally sustained as long as possible to insure the existance of "thrust" through impact for resising the "impact deceleration".

The "lag" eventually will be "thrownaway" (sometime during the swing), no matter how hard/long it is intended to be sustained. But, make sure it is intended/allowed to happen beyond (way bepond), instesd of before, impact.

Energy transfer
 

BTS and Tongzilla

1. Is the pivot actually slowing down? it does seem to. However, my hips still lead throughout the sroke even though during this apparent slowing-down, my arms are speading up.

2. Is the component we are talking about the "Sholder throw trigger" vs the "wrist throw"?

3. As both of you talk about these movements, I can feel them because this is what I do when I try to accentuate the #4 accumulator. The idea I have is to start down, then slow the hips (the right shoulder stays down and on plane), then energy seems to transfer from the torso to the arms. The arms speed up fast. It almost feels like I'm standing still when the ball is struck.

4. This is not my normal pattern. Normally, the right shoulder moves down and out all the way to impact.

Pivot, Shoulder and Trigger Types
 

1) Yes. The Pivot slows down during the Downstroke, but you should also preserve the Downstroke Release Sequence (6-M-1) and the consequent Lag and Drag in the Pivot Train (6-C-0).

2) The Shoulder Turn Throw (10-20-C) should always be used with the Wrist Throw (10-20-E). Otherwise you will be contending with Clubhead Throwaway, or a Full Sweep Release if skilfully performed with Educated Hands (10-20-A). So, start with the Shoulder Turn Throw, then finish it off with a Wrist Throw and Delivery Path Throw (10-20-D) combo to get nice Automatic Snap Release (10-24-E).

3) Even though your Pivot does and should slow down to blast that essentially inert Left Arm off, it shouldn't be a deliberate 'applying the breaks' type movement. That would be like Steering the Pivot.

4) All the Patterns Yoda and I described have the Right Shoulder 'On Plane' on the Downstroke. This is regardless of whether you're using a Shoulder Turn Throw or Shoulder Turn Thrust.

No problem.

Thanks

Tong, your points 1,2 and 3 were very clear. I lost you on point 4. Would you mind differentiating between the Shoulder Turn Throw and Shoulder turn Thrust? ST Throw = 10-20-C, ST Thrust = 10-?-? ??

10-20-C calls for a short, sharp acceleration (thrust?) of the right shoulder against the #4PP.

How are you defining a Shoulder Turn Thrust as a distinct component from the Shoulder Turn Throw. Is it a longer, more sustained thrust than the short, sharp acceleration of 10-20-C? Is this more compatible with the driving right arm of the hitters motion?

Thanks,
Triad

Shoulder Turn Thrust and Trigger
 

The Shoulder Turn Throw is a Trigger Type, whereas Shoulder Turn Thrust describes the use of the Right Shoulder to drive the Lever Assemblies and is not a Trigger Type. You need Shoulder Turn Thrust to use the Shoulder Turn Throw.

For both Hitters and Swingers, the Right Shoulder is used to overcome the initial inertia of the Clubhead during the change in direction. After this inital phase, the Hitter uses the Right Shoulder as a backstop for the Right Arm to push off. However, for the Swinger, the Right Shoulder continues to actively drive down plane against Pressure Point #4. Only for the Full Power Four Barrel Hitting Stroke does the Right Shoulder continue to be active, but it is still used by the Right Arm to push off.
Whatever you choose to do, the Right Shoulder is always leading the Hands (i.e. lagging Hands, Arm and Club -- "Pivot Lag").

Thanks Tong. I have a few more questions, but it may be more appropriate to start a new thread on them. However, if you could humor me for one quick one to jump start my thought process I would appreciate it. I have always been a little blurry on the difference between Trigger Types and Release Types. My basic thought is that Trigger Types refer to the how of the accumulator release sequence whereas Release Types refer to the when/wherethey are released. That is to say that, for instance, the Wrist Throw trigger could occur at the TOP/Startdown for a Full Sweep release, or much deeper, say at Aiming Point for a Snap Release. Both procedures would be using the same Trigger Types, but at different Release Types/points. Am I on track here?
Thanks,
Triad

Yes, you are on track Triad! It's always good to keep the identities of these components separate, and deal with their interrelatedness with that in mind.
Like I said before, if you want a Snap Release (where the Release begins at the very end of the Delivery Path), there are certain Trigger Types (combinations) that are more compatible than others.

1. Yes, eventually and I prefer it happens as late as possible. In terms of the arms, I intentionally keep them (accumulator lag) synchronized with the pivot (pivot lag), at least beyond impact.

2. I don't intentionally "throw" anything, but sustain the lag by "pulling/dragging" the club for "swinging" and "bending/stiffening" the shaft for "hitting" with the hands.

3. It's definitely an option, but sound like a "throwaway" of the power accumulator. Feels pretty fast, yet the lag and thrust are gone. "Timing" is also involved here.

4. My pivot and shoulders move all the way to the finish.

Throws
 

BTS
Thank you for your response. I've been studying this for some time. I agree with response #1 & 2 as this is my normal pattern for swinging too. However, the throw is from the wrists in this case. Nothing is actually thrown. The secondary lever assembly begins to accel. to impact. (i did'nt explain that very well).

#3, this is a point of confusion.
I may be confusing something here. If we let the pivot transport the power package into the release area (which we do), keeping the hands and club lagging, the I don't think that the #4 accumulator is being fully used. If we increase the spacing in a more sequenced release, then accumulators will be felt more like 4,2,3. With greater emphasis on #4. The #4 accumulator is more fully employed. It (#4) steals momentum from the pivot and begins moving the primary lever assembly. (the pivot actually feels like it transfered momentum to the left arm). The confusion for me is that now we seemingly have 2throws in one stoke pattern. Shoulder and wrist. It feels very powerfull and sounds dead perfect on the ball. I think that this procedure uses (is) a right arm swing but I'm not pulling with the right arm. I'm not sure though. The ball does travel about 5 yards more, and there seems to be a greater left hand/clubface contol feeling. The acuracy is better too. I think this is a result of the pivot slowing down thus giving the hands more time to conrol the pivot. I can also determine/contol when the left starts to come off the body. I can hold it untill just before release or from just after the initial hip accelleration. This is different from what you and I have as a standard pattern. Concerning your answer #4, mine do too.

However, and this is the big one...it works just as well with chipping and short pitches. Hmm... i've been working with right arm only chipping which is why I think it is more of a right arm swing. I'll keep reading and studying.

May I have two?
 

That is perfectly fine. :)

May I have Three?
 

Shoulder throw + Wrist Throw.+ Delivery Path Throw = Snap Release??????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????


The combinations of Trigger types are listed in 11-20.....What's interesting is how these combinations evolved/changed throughout the first six editions....so I can't wait to get the 7th

Burger/Fries/Coke Trigger Combos
 

Annikan, 11-20 only shows the most common Trigger Type combinations.

The answer to your question is yes, bearing in mind that, here, the Delivery Path Throw is triggered at the bottom of the short arc (as opposed to the long arc in a Sweep Release).

Please refer to (2) in post #15 of this thread.

Tong,

I experimented a little at the indoor range today. The shoulder throw does seem better, though not as simple. When the wrist throw occurs late in the swing it seems to blur the #2 and #3...more swivel. A little earlier and less blur. I hope i'm not traveling on the wrong path here by experimenting.

One of the nice things which occurs, is that the horizontal hinge action is more definite..deliberate,, and even with a week grip, the ball doesn't fade the slightest, which I think shows me that the slowing of the pivot doesn't mean that they aren't fully turning through. Hmm..Strong single action grip with standard wrist action has a slightly lower trajectory. Weak single action seems more true and it has no bad effects on the deiberate horizontal hinge, i.e. good roll feeling.

However, as I said earlier, the shoulder throw is a bit tweekier, i.e. not as much room for error.

Tong...lets keep this thread..."throwing" or get another started!!!! Cheeseburger, cheese fries and Cherry Coke...

At the end of the day...
 

Keep the final destination in sight:

Mind is in the Hands.

wow - really good thread again - come out of the attic for airing...

Daryl - any updates?
 

Any new feelings / patterns to report back on?

Trigger type and plane angle on downswing
 

Is there a tendency for most players to use certain plane angles with certain throws?

wrist throw with elbow plane / snap release?

Shoulder throw/hand throw with TSP / full sweep release??

Thanks

What Happened?
 

What happened to this great thread? The 7th edition is out.