Putting Geometry
 

Courtesy of VJ

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V.J.

Terrific visuals and visual descriptions. I gather your preferred stroke is on the shoulder plane.

What lie angle does your putting arc have?
What is your preferred ball position? Just short of low point?
Do you have any empirical data on the ascending v/s descending debate?
What kind of tempo do you like and why?

Regards,

If you could post some comments for the pics that would be very helpful.

:smile: looks forward to this

Picture #1- There is a lot of discussion concerning the plane angles the putter moves on. The most mis-conceived notion is that during a "shoulder only" motion the putter will move on the shaft plane. This is JUST NOT TRUE. If indeed the shoulders (left shoulder plane angle) are the ONLY moving part during the stroke putter will move in a plane which goes through the THORASIC REGION of the spine.

Moving the putter along a bench with an arm only stroke and then with a shoulder only stroke will both trace a straight plane line, however, the arc of approach and arc of separation will be different. There will be more arc in the arm only stroke than in the shoulder only stroke. The reason is because of the projection of the plane on the ground. The flatter-the more the arc- the more upright the less the arc.

I hope this image clears some of the fog!

Vj?
 

How much does the anatomy of the golfer change the arc?

What stroke and golfer size are the Putting Arc constructed out from?

Are you saying that we're better off with a putter-training device that are more like the bench, if we want a device that people with diffent strokes and/or body-builds can use:confused:

The anatomy of a golfer changes the arc only by thousands of inches. NOW THE ANATOMY OF A GOLFER that sets up to the ball with eyes 8 to 10 inches inside the ball would change the arc considerably. Over the past 4 years we have made 5 custom arcs for variuos people. We have taken the measurements of hundreds of golfers but the difference in their arc isn't enough to matter.

Would you be better off with a bench? No. But if you were not going to use anything else, I would go for the bench. Plane boards are good, the putting arc is good, etc......The major reason we post the pics is for PRECISION. There is maybe more here than you need or can ever use.....but precision is precision.

Simply go this way. Decide on Shoulder Only or Right Arm Only. Then get a device to help you build a visual equivalent of these plane angles. Happy Planar Putting.

Picture #2

This is the only way a golfer can go straight back and through. Oooooopppppps....I lied. A player can get their pivot point (upper spine, right elbow) directly over the ball or they can MANIPULATE the putter head to death off plane.

For all the straight back and throughers out there just remember your putter better be short and you had better be bent over.

VJ,what is the significance of pics #3&4?

Spin
 

Can a golfer actually putt hook or slice spin on a putt, i.e. the ball is actually spinning across the green with sidespin, or do they all end up rolling over and over? I have heard different things on this... like this glancing blow only takes off power, due to it not being a centered strike. Others say the ball is actually side-spinning along the ground. Maybe this is a factor more with very short putts... causing more spin-outs.

Bending the plane line will interupt the ball's "end over end" roll. You can't hook or slice a putt because of ball speed. There is not enough there to put slice or hook spin on the ball.

Pics 3 and 4 are the geometry of the circle for the shoulder only and the arm only stroke. This geometric reason is why we don't need to mix the two.

There is so much information on putting out there. Most of the information mixes pics 3 and 4. Somewhere along the way I heard the statement, "I may change the shape of my stroke, but it will be because of geometrical reasons only." That is a profoundly brilliant statement.

An understanding of how "YOU" stand over the ball when putting makes a HUGE difference. The Arc of attack on the ball is dramatically different when you place the ball in different places in relation to low point. The stroke (shoulder only or arm only) produce dramatically different low points. So an understanding of how you walk into the ball- 3-F-5 ADDRESS ROUTINE cannot be overlooked for precision putting. Carefully examine where the ball is in relation to your low point. My personal teaching preference is AT or JUST IN FRONT of low point. This should be practiced dilligently with mirrors and "look, look, look..." A player doesn't have to pay $200 an hour for instruction if they will just "look" sometimes.

Avoid the feet at all costs. Player after player comes in and there sternum or head is not in the middle of their stance. Always monitor the balls positioning to the chest area. Never, ever the feet.

Beware of mixing the the arm only and shoulder only strokes. Not because I say so...because the geometry is different. Just look at the difference in low point in the two strokes. Now think about your putter's loft and the effects of skid on the ball when putting. There is a definitive correlation between switching ball positioning and switching putters because of the arc of attack differences.

Look,look,look at pic 3 and 4. Do you know what stroke you are using? Do you know where your ball positioning is? Do you know the loft of your putter? Answer these questions and we all will stop needing "new" information and begin building "precision" alignments.

Learning From the Best
 

Oh...

That "$200 an hour" instruction V.J. mentioned in his post above?

You just got it. :cool:

Is this a great place or what? :)

Very very informative... Where was this last year as I burned up the course with my 38 putt average...

I discovered over the holidays that my Ball Position was INCORRECT cause I was using the feet and my ball position was not consistent resulting in that wonderful average.

This is a definitely KEEPER regarding posts....

Thanks...

Routine
 

Who would be a good tour player or two... that we can watch and study for a good Routine, i.e., to establish ball position, low point relationship, etc.?

V.J,

If the ball is just in front of low point, would that not lead to a pull, however slight?

What are your thoughts on the hit down versus hit up arguments, and why?

What are your preferences with the loft of the putter?

Thanks

Understand that low point is three dimensional. The club is moving down and out and forward-Once there the club will move up and in and forward. When the ball is placed at or just in front of low point it will not lead to a push because #3 traces a straight base line. If your mind sees the arc of approach and separation and begins to believe this is what #3 is doing then you are in trouble. Don't confuse the two.

As far as the down vs up stuff.....just look at the pics. The shaft should not be laying back too much, nor should it be leaning forward to much. I like an equivalency of FLW in putting, this will have the shaft perpendicular to lean forward. So...I feel it is imperative to hit down on the putt (in your mind) while at the same time have the ball at or just in front of lowpoint so that you do not beat it into the ground. There are alternatives to this procedure.....Just one man's opinion.

Loft? It goes back to your mechanics. Mallet putters with large MOIs tend to have no loft because the center of gravity is so far away and down from the face. If it had much loft on it you would be "chipping". Anser types should employ a minimum of 5 degrees loft in my mind. The shaft of the plumber neck type putters tend to lean forward naturally.

So loft is an issue of putter design in many ways.

Shifting Perspectives:

Take a look again at the two pictures showing the 'centers' - the left shoulder, and the base of neck/top of spine.

Notice that these are both from a face on perspective, with all lines running parallel (feet, knees, hips, shoulders).

Can you imagine a way in which BOTH of these sets of pictures would be true, depending on your point of view?

This is one of the reasons I personally love the putting setups of Ben Crenshaw and Greg Norman.

They set their feet about 45 degrees 'open' and close together.

They stand fairly tall, arms hanging with the 'shoulder line' square to the intended target. Left arm in line with the shaft.

When you look at them 'face on' (perpendicular to their shoulder line) - you will see one of the two perspectives VJ posted.

When you look at them 'foot on' (perpendicular to their foot line) - you will see the other perspective VJ has posted.

Both views can be seen - depending on your perspective.

Note that this open foot line is beneficial in two important ways. 1) it will help you get your eyes 'on plane' and 2) it will help you feel the right hand 'underhanded' toss motion.

You have the option of using a shoulder powered stroke, or a right arm powered stroke from this setup.

The caveat of course is that special attention must be paid to your shoulder alignment - something that is true for all shots, but made more difficult by the open foot line.

Thanks V.J,

The light bulb just went on with regard to a couple of things, so thank you. I work closely with Geoff Mangum, but it is extremely beneficial to get your(and others) perspective on tilted plane approaches, and the understanding gleaned therein.

Is there one 'dynamic' loft we should be striving for?

Ed,

I'm interested as to how the eyes will be more on plane because of an open stance. I understand that there is some argument with lead eye dominance.

I can only speak for my own experience on the eye alignment, however I find that when I stand in a traditional 'square' alignment, my eyeline tends to tilt out to the right by about 45 degrees. I am 'very' left eye dominant, which as you point out, could be a key reason for this. Also, I think the open alginment helps you see distances better, because you can use more of a 'both eye' view during your routine. Snead putted with a side saddle approach in part because of this benefit (and of course, the 'straight on' stroke you can use). I'll leave the technical bits to those that know more about vision however.

"This involves the Angles of Approach (2-J-3) established by the LEFT-SHOULDER-TO-BALL relationship of the Lever Assemblies."

"If the Ball is struck before Low Point with an upstroke Motion (most obvious with the Putter) disrupting the Clubhead Orbit and the Hinging, then the Ball and the Clubhead Path become circles "exterior" to each other (like two meshing gears)and the line of Compression rotates away and produces a no-spin floater, or Lob Shot. The circle of the ball must be "interior" to the circle of the Clubface orbit and as immoveable as in a spinning centrifuge."

Basing ball positioning off the feet is dangerous, haphazard, and confusing. There is no allowance of a stance which allows for a player to have two seperate low points while using the same stroke. THERE IS NO LOW POINT OF THE FEET.

If it makes us aim better, rock on!!!!! But don't confuse it with low point.

PS- Now we need Lynn to tell us what "circles exterior" to each other are. GO LYNN GO!!!!

Circles Exterior
 

In a true Three-Dimensional Impact (Down, Out and Forward), the circumference of the Ball lies interior to (or "inside") the circumference of the Clubhead orbit. Specifically, the Ball lies interior to the orbit of the Leading Edge of the Clubface. Thus, during Impact, the Clubface and Ball become one unit within the same orbit, welded together at the Point of Compression.

In the Upstroke Motion described above, the circumference of the Ball lies exterior to (or "outside) the circumference of the Clubhead orbit. This means that the Ball will be struck by the Leading Edge itself and cannot be 'trapped' within its orbit. Thus, the Compression Point is lost, and the Ball simply rotates away.

:)

Angled Hinging and Compression Point
 

Will the Clubface and Ball be welded together (same Impact and Separation points) during Impact with the uncentered motion of Angled Hinging? What implications, if any, does this have on the interior/exterior argument above?

Putts
 

All strokes have the BACK, UP, and IN... DOWN, OUT, and FORWARD.

How much emphasis should be on the DOWN in PUTTING? I have heard several well known instructors, including Stan Utley, mention that they hit DOWN on their putts.

Down But Not Into the Ground
 

Lagster,

Did you see VJ's post #17 above? He addresses the 'Down' issue in it.

Down
 

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OK... yes that is good. Sounds like if the ball is played in exactly the correct position in relation to low point, slightly in front of, then a downward strike can be made (without striking the earth after the ball is struck). We obviously do not want DIVOTS in putting.

I'm a putter that uses the #4 pic style.

Ball location is about the same as in VJ's pic. I'd say i might have mine a hair further foward. I use my left eye as a reference point, not my feet.

As far as the "Down" is concerned. In the face on pics the arc of attack shows the correct amount of "Down" in the stroke.

How do you or I practice it without Cameras? Simply get in front of a mirror and "look, look, look" to make certain the putter head is off the ground the same amount on the backstroke and through stroke. By balancing out the length of the stroke and "looking" at top and follow through anyone can learn the proper amount of down. The mirror will cost you something......outside that all you need is your eyes and a putter.

Great Questions!!!!!!Thanks Lynn for the help with the "circles."

Any answers?
 

Any answers?

If I follow your question Leo...

The uncentered motion of hinge action is a clubFACE issue and the interior/exterior circles are an issue of clubHEAD control.

To the extent that the angled hinge is to a certain extent compression leakage (fade tendency), I would suspect that if there is any related effect of 'exterior circles' in may be amplified leakage. Kind of an apples and oranges issue though (clubhead vs clubface).

In pics 3 and 4 the head is in a different position, centered for the shoulder stroke and tiltted in the arm stroke. SHould these be different? Can you center the head for arms only?

Bgolfing,

The head should/can be centered in both strokes. Sorry if you see any distortions from that "sameness."

Lie Angle
 

VJ - I have noticed that many more players have the toe slightly off the ground (as opposed to the heel). If there is an error in the lie angle of a putter, is it better to have it slightly more upright than down? How important is it to have the lie precisely right?

Thanks - Bruce

Dealing with aim.....the lie angle of the putter is the utmost of importance. Having the toe up will result in left aim...having the heel up will result in right aim. That is...until the computer compensates for it either in aim or stroke path or hinging or.......all three or.......none at all.

To answer the question: Get the putter sitting level!

Thanks VJ - Bruce