Hands go back hips go forward
 

Yo. Is there anything anywhere in the Book about the lower body leading the downstroke while the hands are still moving on the backstroke?

This seems to happen in most dynamic motions. Is this something to "work on?" Or something to leave alone?

This can definitely be seen in the Ted Kroll thread.

Holla back.

B

Geez Mr. Chicken, there must have been thousands of golfers doing that when HK was researching TGM. :)
Let me just say.....

Pivot Controlled Hands? Or Hands Controlled "Just taking out a bit of slack?"

Float Loading?
 

Isn't that essentially what occurs if one float loads? The hips bump left and clear a little while the right forearm brings the club to top / end on plane. Then everything starts down loading the shaft.

Could be but looks like most of the tour guys have this going on? Lower body going forward as hands are still moving back.

Extra Lag
 

It is a method for generating extra lag so it would not surprise me to see many of the tour players using this technique, especially those of smaller stature or strength. I do it too, but I am a distance pig (oink, oink). :laughing1

Nicklaus
 

I remember George Kelnhofer(G.S.E.D.) talking about this one time. He said that some photographers asked Nicklaus to stop at the Top and pose, so they coud take a picture there. He said, "I can't." They asked why, Palmer, and the rest of the guys did it? He said something like..."They may have thought they did it, but, my last move up, is the same as my first move down."

I think he was trying to describe this "transitional" phase of the swing. It seems to be more obvious with the Float Loaders, but you can see something similar in players like Hogan, and Gary Player. David Lee(Gravity Golf), called this 2:1 timing, where the weight moves over and back, before the backswing is finished.

For Swingers... this is part of the #4 Accumulator loading.

Lagster, could you describe in further detail the 'over and back'?

Over And Back
 

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David Lee calls this 2:1 Timing. Not everyone does it quite this way, but with the ones that do... the WEIGHT moves from the LEFT FOOT to the RIGHT FOOT, and back to the LEFT FOOT, before the HANDS, ARMS, AND UPPER TRUNK have finished their motion on the BACKSWING. This sets up what he calls... A "ROTARY WHIP-SLING, on the DOWNSWING. The LEFT HIP is now able to turn and "sling" the arms.

In TGMese... it is a procedure for LOADING the left FOOT, and setting up PIVOT LAG.

thank you Lagster, it sounds like emphasis on a pivot controlled motion, but i would guess it is training of the pivot component.

Pivot vs. Hand
 

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Yes, this is a procedure where the HANDS just hold, but they have to be EDUCATED.

....and you're still aware of their Alignments.

Alignments
 

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Yes, Mr. Birdie! The HANDS ARE JUST HOLDING ON, but you are aware of their alignments.

Is this the same "Lee" (I forget the first name) who describes the "Gravity Golf" technique? If so, he describes a "counterfall" -- caused by a controlled unbalance at the End. I think the motion that 12 Piece Bucket was describing is best explained in chapter 4 of SLAP (Swing Like A Pro) called therein the "transition". It shows that in the interval from the position in the backswing where the arms are parallel to the ground and the shaft vertical, to the end, during that same interval, some of the player's weight is shifting to the left. Someone (Jack?) called it the "two-way stretch".

From SLAP "The challenge of learning to uncoil your lower body while the upper body is still rotating to the top of the backswing is an awesome one to most golfers. The concept of moving segments of your body in different directions simultaneously is difficult to grasp, let alone perform ..."

Alan

Reminds me of Mike Austin's quote "I keep my head steady and I swing my hips. Like a pendulum."

Basically the essence of a snap release via serious float loading, such that you load and unload at very nearly the same time (cracking the whip at your aiming point). It can be helpful to user mid-body hands at address if using this approach, especially as a swinger.

It almost 'feels' like the grip end is starting to unload as the shaft and clubhead are still loading, just like a cracking whip.

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Mr. Lee calls this a "GRAVITY ASSISTED ROTARY WHIP-SLING."

The book
 

Bucket of Chicken,
I would say 10-14-D, 10-15-B and finally 12-3-0 #24 (even though he says that no Zone#1 elements are listed)

Thanks Mikey! Do you think there is any merit to starting the lower body prior to the hands completing the backstroke? Is this a Pivot Controlled Hands no no?

10-14-D REVERSE The Reverse Hip Turn is essentially a sliding motion back to Fix Position during the Backstroke. This will not affect the Backstroke Shoulder Turn in relation to the body, but will sharply restrict it in relation to the ball – On Plane, well back and well down.

Extremely useful for all short Strokes. As a substitute for Impact Fix Address it encourages moving into Impact Position habitually with all Strokes and discourages Address Wrist Condition (B/L/V) tendencies during Impact. Very compatible with Grip Types “E” and “F.”

10-15-B DELAYED The Shoulders lead and power the Backstroke Hip Turn – or at least lead. The Hips then take over and lead and power the Downstroke Shoulder Turn. Use this Hip Turn to prevent overswinging. Turn the Hips a predetermined amount – or none at all – and then “semi-lock” them at that point before starting back with either the Shoulders or the Club. This will stop the Shoulder Turn at any preselected place, tighten the Left Side tension and set the stage perfectly for the Hips to initiate the Downstroke Shoulder Acceleration. But remember, the shorter the Backstroke Turn, the steeper the Plane Angle (10-13-D). See 2-N and 7-17.

It's Always Something
 

The Mechanical Checklist For All Strokes (12-3-0) was introduced in the 4th edition. At that time, it included no Zone #1 (Body) elements (other than the basic Body Position and Balance at the Finish) and the introductory text stated that fact.

Later, Homer added the 'Clear Right Hip' checkpoint as the last item in both the Adjusted Address (Section 2) and at the Top (Section 6). However, in doing so, he did not change the original introductory text. Hence, the inconsistency you have noted.

Adjusted Address (Section 3)