Over the top cure?
 

Hi all, firstly thanks for a great site...

I'm fighting an over the top move in my downswing (on video my right shoulder moves *out* ever so slightly instead of *down*). This is enough to cause a shank in the short irons or pulls

After reading around here i know that the right shoulder has to go down, what is the best way to train this when you've been used to it going out for so long (been playing with it 15 years or more i guess) (again it's only a small move maybe an inch or so)

Drills etc more than welcome !!

Thanks

Start by hitting shots with your toes up in the air.

I suspect from reading your post that your weight may be moving a tad too much from heel to toe during your startdown move, which results in the ensuing OTT.

Could also be not having a 2" hip slide allowing you hands to drop down on plane. Instead of having to go ott to get back to the ball and the throwaway that goes with it.

The weight seems to be ok, it's just the initial 'spin out' move at the top... is only an inch or so that the right shoulder moves out instead of straight down.

The problem is i can't feel it happening so need to feel something different... knowing what you should do and doing it with a ball there is a challenge...:(

One drill that i have been doing is hitting balls with the right foot back - that is working well but as soon as i go back to my normal address position the spinning out starts a happenin...

Try not moving your head laterally in the transition. If you keep the head in roughly the same position as you were at the top you should move that right shoulder down-plane.

matt

OK, I've tried this but my head feels too close to the ground and I keep hitting everything fat. Am I doing something wrong?:)

That is a pretty good indicator that you have a slight OTT.

Yep i rescue most of them with a slight pull. It's the ssshanks that are the killer when i have that slight OTT move and don't pull the hands in closer to the body

I've even resorted to hitting my short irons with the right foot back as per the drill - works ok but lost a couple of clubs worth of distance.

Any other drills or swing thoughts out there??

These have worked for me...

hit some balls over the first/second baseman's head

balance - make sure you're not on your toes, especially as you start down

quiet hips, especially the right hip. think slide instead turn. really, just stay out of the way of the shoulder and right arm.

Try thinking about what your right shoulder is doing, if it goes out first (like a baseball swing), you can't help but be OTT. Somebody recently posted a nice drill where you place a long club across your shoulders with the club head out to the right (for a righty), then try to hit the ball. You'll miss the ball, but you'll be able to see the correct right shoulder plane.

The clubhead drill rules! Its discussed at length in another thread somewhere.

CW

A couple additional areas to check at setup that can contribute

an overly wide stance

a left foot that is too 'square' to the line at address

A right forearm that is too high at address (bad grip)

Shoulder line open at address

All of these limit your ability to pivot properly.

Hit some shots with your feet together until you can stay in balance.

Yep checked those things and all seem ok with mirror work e.g. left foot fanned, right forearm on plane. Seems i just can't get my mind to get the down instead of out...

Smooth:

Take an old shaft, with the head no longer on the end. Set up to the ball with a regular club as you normally would. HOld the regular club with your left hand and take the 'headless' shaft and place it into the ground paralell to your clubshaft angle...kind of like this \\. I have done this while hitting balls. Although the two shafts can be about 6" apart, the visual looking down appears as though the shaft are really close. It always help me (first in slow motion) feel what needs to be done to get 'under' the headless shaft. If I don't get under...WHACK...into the headless shaft. It doesn't hurt or ruin your club, just makes a loud sound!

Only ohter thing I've done to help is (again first in slo mo) go the the top and just as you start down, feel as though you do a right shoulder shrug (as in weight lifting) before going back down. In essence, it feels as though you roll your right shoulder back....

FL-John

Let's Face facts!
 

The first thing you probably need to do is fix your club face. Comming OTT is a reaction to a club face that if not square when the ball leaves it at separation; "Too Open". Most likely because of a left hand that is out of position to begin with; "Rotated Too Far Counter-Clockwise with your left thumb on top of the grip". Try rotating your Left hand clockwise with your left thumb on the aft side of the grip (Strong Single Action 10-2-B)or until the ball no longer goes right.

Then read the following thread in regard to the Role of the Right Shoulder in the Emergency Room Swingers section:

http://www.lynnblakegolf.com/forum/s...ead.php?t=3048

Once you understand how the Right Shoulder works, if you start hitting behind the ball, you need understand how a Swinger uses and doesn't use the Right Arm. A Transfer of Momentum (CF) will uncock the Swingers Left Wrist and Right Elbow, both are passive, but never whippy. No need to push with the Right Arm. If you do, you will need to keep your eyes closed at Impact or wear glasses, because they will be filled with dirt.

ahhaaaa.....good stuff, drew....

I've got a strong single action grip with the left thumb on the aft of the shaft... never hit a slice or fade in my life all the bad ones are pulls or pull hooks. Probably been aiming too far right in the past and then pull hooking it back to the target. Never ever ever any left to right movement of the ball....

I know the moment i come OTT that it's either going to be a slight pull, pull hook or shank......... I know what the right shoulder *should* be doing... it's just how to re-program the computer and i've yet to find anything that seems to make a difference when the ball is sitting there..... :(

Sorry don't want to sound ungrateful and all the answers so far are much appreciated.. just frustrating !!

KMMCNABB discovers gold
 

Did you try the following drill, supplied by kmmcnabb (Kevin):

I began trying to work my right shoulder down and had a heck of a time. I then thought, get my left shoulder up on the downswing and the right will go down. Worked some but not all of the time.

Then one night, on TGC, I saw Martin Hall demonstrate a drill that helped me tremendously. You take your stance at the with your driver. Then take the driver and place it across your shoulders with the grip toward the target flush with your left shoulder and the head out the back (about two feet sticking out the back). Then you backswing to the top and on the downswing, try to hit the ball with the head of the driver (which you can't of course). This will give you immediate feel of getting the right shoulder down on plane. If you have not been doing this then it will feel quite different.

This single drill got me to focus on my right shoulder and I can now feel immediately when I am not down on plane with my right shoulder. I took film after this drill and the difference is quite startling. The only drawback has been that now I have to ensure I don't come under a bit (which is far better than over).

Been drawing the ball for the first time.....ever in my playing life and it is great. My buddies have noticed too since my distance immediately improved. Another side issue is that I have noticed my wrist cock now is much deeper into my swing than before which I have attributed to my shoulders pulling my hands down rather than me hitting with my hands from the top.

Try this........I have shown this to a few folks on the range, and it has worked for everyone that has tried it.

Your Computer (Brain) is aiming your Machine to the right because your Left Wrist is probably Bending at Impact, resulting in a loss of Rhythm. Educate your Hands to feel a Flat Left Wrist and a Bent Right Wrist at Impact. Put your Mind into your Hands, without any regard to the Club itself. Once your ball flight begins going to the right your Computer will re-align you back to the left toward your target.

Thanks Drew
 

Thanks for the compliment. Indeed this does work for all that try it. I have found for myself that it can refresh your memory by using it to warm up and stretch. This drill gives the same feeling that you will get with the powerangle pro (I have one, so I know) without having to carry it around in your bag.

Hope the above is clear explaination. Try it. It will work. What I found is that I needed to move my hips laterally toward the target to get room to move my right should down plane. Once I got that feeling (using the drill), it is easier to do.

I don't think I can come over the top at all now. I now find I am hitting it right (no left at all) and am working on my hinge action which I know is not great.

Good luck.

Kevin

Thanks Kevin, tried it last night and found quite a big difference to my normal 'feel'

The main thing being is that i now have a LOT more tilt than i did before - feels strange but i guess thats what it should do when you've been used to having your shoulders almost level at impact for so long

Feels almost like i'd be hitting the ball on the upswing with that much tilt... haven't had a chance to hit any balls yet but will try it out.

Thanks again

Hit some balls tonight using the drill mentioned above before each shot. The mid irons were great (7 - 8 irons was approaching from the inside no problems)

However as soon as i went down to the PW or SW i was coming over the top each time.

Anyone got any ideas why I would be more prone to the OTT move with the short irons? (checked i was the right distance away and seemed ok) it was shank city and the tee i placed outside the ball was getting snapped every time....

The smaller the shot the harder it was

If Homer Kelley wrote a book about the Geometry and Physics of OTT swings, it would be 366 pages. There would be 36 Components and each would have 10 Variations. However I have no doubt that his preferred pattern for Drag Loading 12-2-0 would include:

3- Stroke Basic___H___Right Shoulder Hurl

5- Plane Line_____F___Bent

19- Lag Loading___C___None


Sorry about the above. It’s just my sense of Humor.

A more direct route to cure the OTT move is to start over. Basic motion. Drag the Club. Allow CF to do the work. Drag the Club. Drag the Club. Drag the Club. Keep in mind, that Extensor Action applies to the left shoulder as well. Don't turn the left shoulder under the Chin; rather, stretch it to that location. Tug-of-war. If your left side pulls, then your right side won't push.

Basic motion is ok... it's when i get into acquired motion and start introducing the pivot then the problems start. I can chip a 1000 balls and not shank any of them

Don't turn the Left Shoulder under the Chin. Stretch it to under the chin.

Not quite with you there? :confused1

Try this.
Address the ball,take the club back to the right forearm parallel to the ground position(aquired motion).Do NOT pivot to get to this point.
Right forearm is parallel to the ground with whatever wristcock you normally have at this stage.
Now,keeping your head very still add enough shoulder turn and pivot to get you to the top.It may feel to you like a very "small" move.
Now from this position practice the downstoke waggle,bump the hips parallel to the plane line ,notice how your hands go DOWN ON PLANE.
I too had/have problems with the shorter irons-OVERACCELERATION is my problem,these clubs accelerate very quickly when swung on plane FEEL THE LAG PRESSURE AND SUSTAIN THAT PRESSURE-YOU CANNOT DO IT IF YOU ARE AT ALL QUICK.
Hope this helps as one step along the road.

The Drill. Grab your Dowel. Grip half way down with you left hand only. Take your right hand, go under your left and put the back of your right hand back to back with your left hand. Make your Backswing and feel your left shoulder stretch under your chin. On the downswing note how the right shoulder stays back on plane.

Thanks Neil, it's just a weird feeling that i'd rather have driver or long iron in my hands than a wedge. Like you said perhaps it's an over acceleration issue with the wedges? i'm not attempting to make a different swing at least

Also had some problems w/ the short irons.

The EdZ "lift and roll"

I was lifting and rolling the club, laying it off at the top, straightening up out of my posture a bit, and would get my weight towards my toes. The more I was bent over the worse it got, so the short irons had the poorest results. I had to think more under and up instead of out and around...helped a lot. My backswing felt short and steep at first, but that "feel" changed quick and often, so verifying it via video was (still is) a must for me. Daryl's drill above would have helped me with this problem :)

Neil's post was an important topic for me, too.

Very tuff problem for me too.
 

I had a really tough time solving this one as well. I became rather succesful with the solution.

This problem personally for me is caused by , "The impulse to drive the ball squarely FORWARD towards the target" thus the right shoulder wants to participate in a way unfavourable. And the solution , 2-N-0 Underpitch must be present to prevent Roundhousing. learning to let the shoulder stay back and down .

I solved it as per Comdpa personal suggestion to learn to feel to square a tennis racket on a horizontal path. keeping the shoulder back and down.

Also As per Yoda , perform this as drill: 10-5-E close close stance, Strong double action wrist, In to Out path, Cut shot. Post. Did alot of those. took me a while to understand why yoda suggested this too.

So the objective is to get the more " out down and replace the incorrect forward impact with the correct ones ... 3 dimensinal impact.

Same problem for me with the short irons....
 

Smooth,
I had the same problem; pulling the short irons only. Turns out that I was bending the left wrist at impact (ok, the problem that most ams have). This after a year of working hard on FLW and BRW. But, in my case (and maybe yours) it was because the short irons are the heaviest, and therefore the breakdown becomes "easier". Also, (again in my case) because we think "it's just a wedge" we sometimes don't finish the swing, and quit. What finally worked wonders for me was to make sure I finished the swing, along with a determined roll of the left forearm, a horizontal hinge.
Tom

Study 3F7A.

I’ve read through all the posts in this thread and see that nobody has really addressed the root cause. OTT is caused by inadequate weight transfer. With the feet touching (as a drill for balance) OTT is almost impossible. Once the feet are separated, we have two axes (plural of axis) to deal with, the backswing axis over the right foot, and the downswing axis over the left foot, separated by the weightSHIFT. Starting the downswing over the wrong axis invariably leads to OTT and other problems.

What's the root cause of the "inadequate weight transfer"?

anyone?....
Bueller?

Inadequate knowledge of the golf swing :(

Look at this weight transfer!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xy9GTAENiJA

Clubhead was movin up there.

Yes.

What's your point?

What is it Mike?

When i use the 'right foot back' drill i don't come OTT - i'm thinking because i can see a nice big alley way from the top back down to the ball (i.e. right hip is not in the way). Is this still related to weightshift? i think my OTT is subconciously avoiding the elbow/hip collision because i'm definately not intending on doing it.

When i think about the pivot or weightshift however i tend to get to much swaying and leg drive going on....