An Active Right Arm
 

Lagster,

Just my humble opinion, but I've tried Right Arm Swinging and the best I can describe it is, 1, 2, 3 with loosened wrists per 10-K-3 and longitudinal right arm pull. The pivot is in motion but not "active". I've given right arm swinging a college try (That would be a Masters level try for you DG :wink: ) on and off the course. I like it and it's effective, but not my style. When you are a natural hitter it's tempting to use right arm swinging. A pure longitudinal pull with the right forearm to the aiming point.

Speaking for myself, its hard to have any focus on keeping the right forearm wedge intact like you would with a normal pivot driven swing, so let CF line things up with the right forearm wedge through impact. This is due to the "loosened wrists". Normally the right wrist stays fixed in it's bent and level condition without cocking or uncocking. In a right arm swing, the loosened right wrist tends to cock and uncock on the downswing as the right elbow uncocks per the procedure. It's purely a function of centrifigal force acting on the "loosened" right wrist, unless you want to use a non-automatic release of the #2 accumulator. In my case this results in a borderline random sweep/full sweep release but also prevents any elbow strain for some reason.

Longitudinal swinging with the right arm is a valid option if done correctly. I resist endorsing it due to the "potential" for injury, just like I would resist endorsing any pivot move that would injure the back or hips. (Note DG - Endorsing pertains to my duty as site admin, and any liability associated with it's content.) For those new to the site, DG is our unofficial right arm swing evangelist and we appreciate his expertise in that area.

The only time I've experienced right elbow twing is when the right elbow is out of position for the motion. I've had right elbow soreness for several weeks, multiple times over the course of two years. I may be wrong, but if my elbow is in a pitch basic position and I attempt to push, it will stress the ligaments. I think an OTT move with push basic may have the same results. I'm certain its' because I'm not doing it correctly at times.

I would really like to explore the right and wrong way to do right arm swinging without injury. I think its based on having the proper right elbow position at release. It would be a great groundbreaking study to know and would supplement Toms work.

I've rambled enough and probably taken this thread off topic.
I'll leave it up to Bucket if this thread is beginning to get off topic or not.

Bucket - You da man, let us know. We can take this right arm, longitudinal swing somewhere else and do some more digging.

Outta Here,

Bagger

I just had a Lesson with Ben Doyle. More on that later. I was "left Arm Swinging" and Driving the Ball about 255 Yards. Another guy was Swinging and Driving the Ball 300 Yards. I asked Ben "What's going on?". He said the other guy was "Right Arm Swinging". We put him on video and sure enough Ben said, "See, he gets all that power from his right arm". I asked "is he still swinging then?" and Ben said "Ya, a right arm swinger". Enough for me.

Question for Delaware.

Hi there not trying to criticise any of your thought on right arm swinging. I don't know enough about the subject. I would like to try and incorporate it into my swing but my only concern is that adding 1# to my swinging proceedure of 2# follwed by 3# 4# would this not cause premature uncocking of the left wirist leading to a bent left wrist through impact. I am sure you will have a logical answer and be able to allay my fears in respect of this happening.

Best Wishes

Matt

Calling UPS -- I Have a Right Forearm FW to Deliver.
 

DG,

Excellent post, Dave and a great quote. I apprecitate your posting it. I like the mental image of the right forearm flying wedge being thrown (swinging) or driven (hitting) into impact. Are you you simply advocating delivery of the whole right forearm flying wedge into impact, with whatever procedure is used -- as opposed to trying to get everyone to be a "right arm swinger" as per 10-3-K?

For a swinger, the idea and mental picutre that the pivot is driving the right forearm flying wedge from the Top right through Impact and into Follow-through prevents the dreaded "trying to move your hands with your hands" and the right shoulder Over The Top and/or Flipping of the hands that usually result from that.

Control doesn't equate to "work". In a "Hands controlled Pivot", the Pivot is doing the "work"

Why can't the Pivot be doing the work in a forearm controlled swing?

Yes, TT demonstrates the Right Forearm Pickup and then just appears to reverse that action for the downswing from about 2:20 - 3:25.

The right forearm pickup is nothing more than bending the right arm; and the reverse procedure is nothing more than straigtening the right arm. Now, the right arm can unbend one of two ways -- passively, through the throw-out action of a swinging procedure or actively through use of the muscles. I contend this can only be done by the tricep muscle, as the right forearm has no musculature that can actively cause the right arm to straighten.

So when you say that the right forearm is in control, you appear to be saying that the right forearm is causing, activley powering both the pick up and straigtening of the right arm, and I don't think that is anatomically correct. I believe that is done by the bicep and tricep.

Bob, you have the Evershed book...just read the educated hands section. Tommy is not starting the downswing with the hips...he's driving the right forearm from the top and allowing the right elbow to uncock naturally, he's not holding back at all (it's one smooth driving motion for the top the down comes from the rightforearm, the out comes from the shoulders). I would suggest re-reading the Tomasello golf illustrated interview at this point. At one point in my lesson, Tommy says in so many words, what brought you up brings you down...meaning the right forearm. The Magic of the Right Forearm. I use the right forearm on every shot...when I tried to use direct manipulation of the tricep muscle, in a weeks time, I lost the lag. Went back to using the right forearm and instantly the sweet feeling of lag returned. It was like Magic...hence the name, the Magic of the Right Forearm...I wouldn't be surprised Homer discovered the same thing. I would also say that Homer found it through experimentation versus reading a book on biomechanics!

DG

Okay - I re-read the Quiet Body and Educated Hands sections of Evershed and I think I got it. It really is more or less the same move you would use to hit the topspin forehand shot with a tennis racquet, except its on an inclined plane. It's the Quiet Body and Educated Hands drills.

Thanks, Dave.

Hmmmm....and Homer was a good at tennis.

Bob...re-read my previous, I added more.

This seems to be a much more dynamic topspin forehand than the one you guys are describing: http://2005.australianopen.com/image...roddick_02.jpg. I wonder if the forehand is an apt analogy?

P.S. What date is the Golf Illustrated that Tomasello was interviewed in Delaware Golf?

Matt

I was hitting 56 degree sand wedge shots about 80 yards earlier today. I just finished trying Deleware Golf's recommended procedure after reviewing his posts, the Evershed book and Tomasello video. I was was able to hit the same club 90 - 95 yards with better accuracy. A few keys from the Evershed video seemed to help. They are: (1) The left arm is inert; (2) Swing the right arm back, up and in, instantly and simultaneously (i.e., "on-plane", while (3) trying to keep the right arm straight (extensor action); (4) maintain the bent right wrist on the down swing while (5) executing a gentle "top spin forehand" motion and (6) allowing the right arm to swing forward, up and in to the Finish.

Trying this with a stiff left arm instead of an inert left arm is a loser. I also tried to just swing the "whole right arm" instead of thinking only of right tricep power and that seemed to work effectively.

That has to be the gangliest picture I've ever seen....

I'm a believer, for I have been to the mountain top.:)

I've been working on this off/on for the last 4 months and it has finally clicked. I'm hitting the ball pure, long and without effort. All right forearm without any thought on pivoting or my body.

Here's a question:

Is Evershed's pattern different from Tomasello's??? How???

It seems like when I use Evershed's focal point (the bent right hand)my pattern is different from Tomasello's, but this could be me misunderstanding what he teaches... Is the "vertical drop" simply the uncocking of the right elbow?

When I put "my brain into my right hand" I really do get the feeling of hitting a topspin forehand (switty but still good), and my flight is lower.

When I follow the pattern that Tomasello presents in his video letter/lesson my pattern feels whippish with a higher more darting flight.

I can play good golf with either pattern, but I prefer my -PERCEPTION- of the Tommy T pattern.

I agree that Evershed is a great instructor and he definitely gives his student "knowledge." I understand why he was awarded teacher of the year.

Evershed: N/A porsche 911
Tomasello: Twin Turbo Porsche Carrera

By topspin, I mean that the swing feels similar to a tennis stroke, and not that it is faulty in anyway. It just feels different when I change my focus from my forearm to my right hand. I feel more lag pressure focusing on my right hand, but more speed and 'whippyness' when focusing on the right forearm...

DG,
did you know that Evershed doesn't believe that the left wrist uncocks fully after impact? He believes that it only gets back to level at impact and then quickly recocks.

I have experiemented with my normal swing and tomasello's "pattern" the last few times at the range.

Both of the patterns are equally accurate and powerful. Basically all i'm doing is replacing my power from the pivot and replacing it in my right forearm.

My pattern = more pivot, passive right arm/forearm
Tomasello's pattern = less pivot, more right arm/forearm

For me, i like my pattern better.

DG

I don't understand your post. I said that both patterns are equally as accurate and powerful for me. Which means with both of the patterns i was producing the same speed and the same impact alignments. Why would i need a "long committment" to see the benefits when I already have? I have experimented and swung (a little incorrectly) with the Tomasello pattern fora while. Recently through a post of yours i noticed i did something wrong. After this change it allowed me to correctly do the pattern as Tommy would want and then i saw the results which were just as good as my pattern.

If the pattern that i worked on hard for almost a year now works just as good as Tommy's way, why would i change to a whole new pattern instead of just constantly maintaining my own just like i'm sure you do yours?

------

My comment on less/more pivt and less/more right arm is in relation to the two distinct patterns.

In the pattern i currently use, i use a very strong pivot motion to carry the power package into impact and i try to create (through pivot thrust as i call it or pivot power, pivot speed whatever anyone wants) as much CF to create throwout action and speed. To do this you have to have very passive and inert arms and "spin the flywheel," meaning the right shoulder downplane.

In Tomasello's pattern the body is much more quiet and the right arm/forearm is much more active. I am simply replacing the amount of 'pivot thrust' (as i call it) with the un-cocking motion of the right arm (magic of the right forearm). When done correctly i get the same type of power and accuracy, i'm simply producing my alignments and "force" or "speed" in a different manner.

Not necessarily better, it's just different and works better for me and i see no reason to change my entire pattern for the same results.

TGM is all about finding the pattern that works for you and i have found that. So i still tinker and wanted to give the Tomasello pattern a significant try to determine the results. It is a valid pattern that works wonderful, i just don't choose to use it because i already have a pattern for me.

Such Anger
 

I read and re-read Jim’s post and fail to see what ruffled your features. I don’t know Jim but I think he puts lot into his game and with the help of your posts gave your stroke pattern a fighting chance. Lighten up, his post was civil.

With all the “hmmmmmms...” and “don’t humor mes,” your frustration surfaces. Contribute all you want, continue advising and touting TT, but if someone likes to throw the clubhead a different way at the ball and has success - chill out. We are reading TGM, aren’t we?

DG- What deal? Get back to earth please and join the human race. You are the last person to tell me to whom and when I can post.

I thought you were WAY OUT OF LINE in the way you treated Jim- something you do to many people on this site. Jim was admirable working on things you posted and you choice to rack him over the coals- nice guy, aren’t you. Huff and Puff as you like but if life is so good for you- you sure don’t show it (save a quick sentence at the end of a post)

The TGM world does not revolve around you or TT or your "swinging" right arm (which I bet is active). Learn to live with the fact that some people built a different machine. And you ain't the designer, dude.

I've got to agree with the guys here DG....

Homer wanted you to understand the role of the right arm....

Homer would mention Right Arm Swinging in the book....and usually immediately after would mention something about damaging the right elbow ligaments....

If you're saying that Homer preferred a right arm swing or it's superior or he secretly wanted everyone to do it or w/e....I really disagree. (if that's what you're saying)

C'mon man....obviously you have had success with it.....and good for you....no one should say "no that's wrong"...

And TT was taught by Homer personally, yes.....but he's the only guy I ever (personally) have heard of that really seems to want everyone to do this. (besides you)

Correct me if I'm wrong.

I mean....you can believe whatever the heck you want but I dunno why you're trying so hard to convince everyone else.

It's all about options (the old TGM cliche).....and yes right arm swinging falls in there......(but so do 1000s of other things)

...

BTW Jim was not humoring you.....it seems obvious at least to me that he was being genuine.....you just snapped for some reason.

Please explain this inescapable LAW.

You mentioned that Tomasello taught it....then you said it's law...

So fill us in.

My choice...TT...DG thankfully you are not too distracted by those who either do not want to get a better understanding of TT's pattern or prefer theirs since that is where most of their work has been directed for some time.

Can you PM me the Sports Illustrated PDF ...I am one who appreciates your insights and efforts...I went back and looked at TT's videos...everytime I do I see something I didn't notice before. It always amazes me how in his 70's he was able to really bang the ball (the sound is quite loud) in his letter videos to Lee.

Thanks DG

DG

I appreciate your time to send me the Tomasello audiot. I have watched it and thought it was beneficial to my game and my teaching.

However please point out to me where there are "inconcistencies" in my post. I have been messing around with the Tomasello pattern since LAST OCTOBER!

I showed up to a golf school in Orlando that Brian Manzella was doing and was hitting the ball wonderful with it. HOWEVER what i wasn't doing was getting my right shoulder downplane with it. So i modified my pattern for a while so that i could learn how to get that done and my pattern migrated into something different.

Once i could get my right shoudler to go downplane correctly i went back and revisited the Tomasello approach because of the success i had with it (even doing it incorrectly). That was roughly i would say May. From May through June the results were inconsistent because i had a faulty idea of how to perform the backswing with my right forearm. Once i fixed that and started doing it right i had the same type of distance/direction/accuracy as my current pattern.

I will admit the tomasello way is simpler and has less "moving" parts because it employs more of a quiet body however. The bottom line is that it works but i don't see the need to change for me.

----------

However with this in mind, you are not going to care. To you, the TT right arm swing is the be all end all of the swing which is ashame because TGM is all about OPTIONS not ABSOLUTES.

I will not respond to this thread any longer or anymore of your posts. Again i will thank you again for sending me that CD it was generous of you.

Thanks and i'm DONE.

Oh gimme a break you guys.....so ridiculous....

I've been open minded about this and so has Jim.....I think you've been given you as much as you're gonna get with regards to this....but you seem to want us to take the whole bottle for some reason.

Sorry man TGM is about options. (I'm gonna say it over and over)

I dunno if you're a little on edge cause you're used to being attacked or something.....

Listen....

I've seen TT's videos on here....and yes he teaches that.....and that's great....it is a very valid way to swing and I'm sure it can be very effective for some people (I said that already but it wasn't good enough....just like Jim was trying to be genuine but it wasn't good enough....because RA Swinging has to be SUPERIOR I guess)....and that's great too.....

TT was a GSED taught by Homer, yes.....and that also is GREAT!.....

But TT is not Homer Kelly (you said: "Who are you gonna listen to?").........Homer only wrote one book.....

...

How come no one else (there are others, including Lynn) who was taught by Homer exclusively teaches this procedure? (if Homer thought it was best....and if it's superior)

I mean....you just seem to be the only guy who's really really into this.....

Are the rest of us all missing the point?

Is there somewhere in TGM where Homer says it's superior? Has everyone else interpreted it wrong?

(no)

How come he didn't just come out and say it if it's so superior?

It almost seems to me like you've had a great success with this (which is good)....and as a result have maybe have read too much into the book....cause to me you seem to be attaching your own ideas to concepts in there (some of which I don't agree with obviously)....based on your preferences.....which you seem to want to push on everyone.

Doing this of course misses the main point....that being that TGM is about options....(for you this has apparently been clouded cause you think RA Swinging is superior)

...

Now....all I can go by is the videos and what you rant about so I dunno if TT taught that all the time to every single person or what the case is.....

But I do know that TGM is about options and you don't seem to want to concede that. I mean, we've all conceded that Right Arm Swinging is an option....I dunno what the problem is.

I know what I think (even if I'm just some random guy learning TGM).....and I think it's pretty fair.

That being:

-RA Swinging is a valid option, can work very well apparently for some people (although I have only heard of you thusfar....although I'll admit it ISN'T taught a lot....but you seem to be very adamant and I'll trust that)....I don't know that it is superior like you seem to be saying....but it is a valid option among a lot of other OPTIONS.

...

I'm not gonna argue with you on here cause I don't want to waste my time anymore and I know this will go on and on and on.

(BTW...there is only one reference specifically to Right Arm Swinging in the index...let me know if there's more DIRECT references in the book)

And could you explain why RA Swinging is superior? (I asked you this a few posts ago)

You said it's "inescapable LAW."

"birdie_man go away.....I don't have much of a response for you so just go away"

K good I don't want to talk about it forever either....

The point is tho you were being ridiculous (and basically tried to tell me I know nothing and TT knows everything) so I had to tell you that.

Hi DG,
Do you have experience outside of golf which helps you believe that RA swinging is the way to go? For instance, other sports?

I don't want anything from you.

But you said something and I just want you to justify it.

Cause you just said it outright without explaination.

Post #33.

I mean, if it is superior (you think this no?...tell me if I've got you wrong) why don't you just fill us in why?

DG

Got your PDF...thanks it was very interesting. TT had an incredible journey...and he left behind a wonderful pattern that many can enjoy and play good golf. It may not be for everybody...but then there are always other threads.

Many look forward to more....especially next Sunday's segment of your 3-day instruction with TT.

Thanks also to Yoda and his staff who allow us to experience many facets of TGM...Homer would be very proud of his efforts to keep the light burning bright.

Keeping the Flame
 

Homer Kelley lived to conduct three Golf Stroke Engineering Master (GSEM) classes for Authorized Instructors. Tom Tomasello taped the first. I taped the last. By extreme good fortune, I happen to possess not only my own recordings, but also each of the others.

We all know 'the book' is difficult -- even inaccessible -- without the keys to its understanding. But when the door is unlocked, the Game holds no greater treasure. To that end, we all need a guide -- I certainly did -- else the entry is forever sealed. And that is why I write every day: To help you bridge the gap.

But the journey tests us all, and many are lost along the way. This includes those whose egos demand that they reject TGM when it doesn't support their own unsound procedures. Here is what Homer had to say about them:

"Golfing Machine terminology is being bandied about more and more, so we must guard against the tendency of misuse to put it in disrepute. Key your rebuttal to intent. For instance -- in these early days especially, the neophytes will tend to fill in those 'grey areas' with their own little compensations during those 'Absorbing' and 'Incubating' stages, and because they are pleased with their new skill, tend to tout them as acceptable, workable alternatives to the Machine procedures. Just suggest that they check that out again in the book. Because it doesn't sound quite right. That is -- help the struggler and the curious...but shun the scorner."

G.O.L.F. Bulletin, The Amber Spotlight, April 1982

Keep the Light On
 

Thanks DG for another excerpt...keep them coming...and thanks Yoda for keeping the lights on...the truth is sometimes hard to get at...please keep helping us thru the maze...the doors seem to get easier to open as you pass from one to the other.

Good Stuff
 

Thank you DG. Really good stuff. :)

DG - would you agree that Evershed is basically focused on a 'true' horizontal hinge motion? (his CCC) I like his visual of it from overhead, very much the 'feel' IMO to what a split grip drill shows, and IMO one of the areas Ballard was really getting at (even though I don't think he described it well).

EdZ and DG. I don't mean to butt in on your exchange but I want to add my observations. I have some of Evershed's stuff and what I think he is trying to impart, besides the 3 imperatives, is...

1-Delivery Line-Prep-Roll
2-Horizontal Hinge
3-FINISH SWIVEL

Evershed is always talking about keeping the hands moving left with a flat left and bent right wrist. A flowing motion. EdZ, are the three points I mentioned above your "true horizontal hinge motion"?

DG,is Tomasellos pattern actually a 4 barrel stroke variation?

True horizontal hinge as distinguished from swivel as hinge action. I don't really see much emphasis on your points 1 and 3 in the material I have seen - mostly the focus is bent right/flat left. Clearly he is familiar with the machine, and acknowledges Homer and TT, so I'm not suggesting he ignores those important points at all. I like his 'six minute' guide. A good reference to TGM concepts.

I tried a Right Arm Swing a few days ago...

Worked pretty well.

Not inspiring enough to put in the full time you say is needed for full results tho.

But it worked well I'll say and does seem to be a valid way of playing....I hadn't experimented with it in a while.

(not sure of the tendon damage still tho...I felt nothing but only used it briefly)

Good Stuff Again
 

DG,

Realy really neat stuff.
Please keep em coming.
:laughing9

UPP

What is moving the left arm in that drill? It can't be Extensor Action.

:salut: :salut: It gives structure.
"This stretches but does not move the Left Arm and produces a structural rigidity that is a strong deterrent to collapse under the stress of Acceleration and Impact." Homer Kelley per 6-B-1-D (my old screen name).
TT give the impression that the right arm piston action is Extension Action or at the very least failed to seperate the two forces- a in-line pull (stretch) on the left arm and the right arm push (drive) on the left arm. Two different things.

I have watched the series of clips several times. A fine introduction to TGM.:salut: :salut: