What Component is Most Responsible for FORWARD?
 

And should you ever think about FORWARD?

Arm Rotation - responsible for the Backward, Upward, Downward and Forward motion. In other words the Horizontal and Vertical motion.

Shoulder Rotation - responsible for the Inward and Outward motion, In otherwords the incline or angle motion, the motion across the Vertical and Horizontal.

Only if you want a 3 dimensional golf stroke...

Don't even think about it.

The fact that at some point your lever assembly passes your left shoulder is enough to make it happen. It has no choice but to move forward.

I think it does more harm to a hacker thinking forward. already too much of Forward.

Out out is more important . Meanwhile axis tilt takes care of down.

Short Post but one that is as strong as TRAIN SMOKE!!!

So essentially you are driving the Lever Assemblies and club DOWNPLANE . . . Which if you were to imagine yourself standing in the hole of that clear plastic plane thingie that Mr. K built would be TO THE RIGHT OF YOU and DIAGONALLY SLICING your body somewheres betwixt the shoulder and hip right?

Good post!

Not to be picky but for the primary assembly to pass the left shoulder, that would mean you have completed the follow through.

Homer defined the down stroke as DOWNward (Attack Angle) and OUTward (Plane Angle) AND FORward (Apporach Angle). All Three MOTIONS are the product of the influence of the Inclined Plane on the down stroke forces.

The arms the component where the forward motion comes from...

The average golfer would be best served by not thinking FORWARD at all. All it does it invite steering and swinging towards the target.

My clubhead travels forward. But do I move it forward? If I don't try to move it forward, will it move backwards? Of course not.

Down, yes.

Out, yes.

And that's all I focus on.

This may be a goofball question . . .but how does it go OUT without going forward? I reckon OUT to the ball or aiming point but not Forward toward the target?

Obviously I misunderstood the question.

What Component is the Most Responsible for FORWARD?

And should you ever think about it?

The Down and Out thought is probably valid for those who think about this while swing. They also probably are still thinking about the clubhead and that is where your steering really comes into play. JMO.

Understanding that the golf stroke is 3-Dimensional is for most a novel concept. Look at the golf instruction books over the past years, this concept is rarely written about.

I think understanding the Shoulder and Arm's role in the 3 dimensional golf stroke would do well to over come the incorrect focus. JMO.

OUT is "where you're facing" as you swing. Down is into the ground. Forward is towards the target. The three dimensions. I could, theoretically, move the clubhead DOWN and OUT only. The clubhead would move perpendicular to the plane line. Now how hard would that be to do in the real world?

Really hard. Which is why you're going to move the club forward whether you think about it...or whether you don't!

Martee - I agree that the concept of three dimensions is absolutely integral to understanding the golf stroke. The vast majority of the Golfing World doesn't understand it, never will, and doesn't care. We know about it and are cognizant of it (either consciously or subconsciously) every time we make a stroke. That said, I think that once the concept is developed within the Computer we can then omit the "forward" component from our conscious thought.

I don't know if there is a component that is most responsible for "forward." I believe, as I've discussed, that it's more a factor within the geometry of the circle. It's a geometry issue, not a physics issue. Sure, physics is what explains the forces that propel the "forward" dimension, but geometry is what sets it up to begin with. Without the correct geometric structure we will have no "forward."

Would the _amn ball just go Forward
 

Forward is a resultant force from a downward and outward motion in the golf swing. Right Forearm downward....at release, the rotational action of the hips throw the shoulders outward. So the motion the swinger or hitter needs to think about at the beginning of the downswing is a downward motion of the right forearm...any thought of going outward at the the beginning of the downstroke will cause an over the top move...an off-plane move.

See 2-N-1 the Forward Force Vector of the Clubhead (7-23)is a resultant force.

The primary downward force vector is produced by straightening the right elbow. Hmmm exactly the way Tom Tomasello taught TGM. Right out of the 7th edition.

DG

Very nice!

Yes sir! Another VERY INTERESTING change to 2-N-1 is that AXIS TILT is NO LONGER responsible for Downward Motion as in the 6th . . . but it is . . .

Responsible for ON-PLANE MOTION. Wonder what made him have this revelation?

What causes the club to go to the left after impact? In other words, when I swing down and out, the forward takes care of the forward because it has no where else to go. But, what happens when the club goes too far out ? For someone underplane and too inside out, how do we get the club to move forward and around after passing the left shoulder? or do we want that at all?

You don't if you are using the 10-5-E plane line . . . but if you are using the Geometric Plane Line and you are too far out you are OFF PLANE. The solution is Tracing and look look look until you can see what On-Plane look like. Then translate that into a feel.

Thanks for the great reply Mr. Bucket.

Forward
 

Trying to swing the CLUBHEAD FORWARD, or swing your HANDS FORWARD as your primary emphasis can cause big problems... one of the main ones being THROWAWAY. Take the HANDS DOWN PLANE...no STEERING.

Tom Tomasello said Forward is "Resultant."

Bucket, you are definitely into some serious smoke. I'm down for a dime.

Do we not have a clubhead that travels in an arc? Things moving in an arc only go clockwise or anti-clockwise. There is no forward or backward. And there is no inward or outward, at least not from the standpoint of the orbiting object. It's just going around and around. (I know you took those girls on the Tilt-A-Whirl at the carnival).

The swing arc of the clubhead is essentially the same whether you are performing it on the horizontal (torso vertical) or on an inclined plane (front of torso bent down toward the ground).

Arguably, thinking (conceptually) of anything other than swinging the clubhead in an arc is disruptive.

You nailed it, IMO.

Could one compononent be responsible for all three impact dimensions? i.e. the PIVOT moves the club clockwise/counter-clockwise on the inclined plane and the ball is positioned accordingly on that plane.

Blue skying,,,

Super post!

A nightmare!
 

Please, Please pay attention to who started this post! You're not working with a sound individual here!:clown: He knew exactly what he was doing- creating chaos- the Clown trying to bring the building down! He's a forum terrorist:twisted: Bagger, why aren't you responding to my repeated PM's to ban this Bucket! He's making me lose it:confused1 :eyes: :happy3: - help!


In 2-C-0 Homer writes: "The Law of Inertia: Newton's First Law. There is no change in the motion of a body unless a resultant force is acting upon it."

Is that exactly correct?- "resultant force is acting upon it" meaning at least two divergent forces- or could it just be one force? Doesn't seem to be very precise to me- writing "resultant"

So- I'm not thread jacking- just asked the above question to send Bucket into a tizzy!

I've got a comment on 2-N-1 (7th edition)- and Forward being a resultant force vector.
If you read his statement out of context it appears to be completely incorrect- outward and downward does not produce forward- but he's working within the context of the geometry of the circle but even that's not very good- the real key is 1-L and the Hinges- with their attachment to a centered post, it is the force of that post that adds the forward motion from the merely downward and outward forces. Anotherwords without the centered post of the Machine in 1-L- it does just go down and out and not forward- if it is only pushed downward and outward.

That's right . . . call your little buddy Bagger the man who goes to the course in a skirt and cowboy boots. The infernal depth of your hatered is a boundless abyss.

Your 1-L reference is truly genious . . . but I am not enchanted by your words for the tongue which brings them forth is forked. Your blood runs yellow as your spine . . . and I for one will not place a single foot upon your path of inequity and wickedness.

So by all means emplore the Skirted Cowboy to rescue you . . . you will need an army of with the stength of lightening and thunder to satisfy your bloodlust. Fools fools fools!!!! Be not afraid of the mongoliod Pysch-O. For he is but a paper tiger. And his disciple is a Bell Star wannabe.

Write'n up the warning ticket
 

Bucket and MikeO,

You need to listen to my theme song once again.

http://www.lynnblakegolf.com/gallery...aggerstune.mp3

Nurse - How did these two escape from Bucket's section?
Remember, you are the Deputy in your room.
So y'all git along, before my pointy-toed boots find their aiming point.:laughing9

Hopelessly Off Plane
 

Whoa, the animal juices are a'flowin' here! And Halloween is still 30 days away!

But Bucket, since you've taken in vain the name of our esteemed Sheriff Bagger Lance, I must protest...that would be Belle Star, not Bell Star. On second thought, maybe Bell is the masculine version. :) As is The Sheriff!

Whatever...Belle was up close and personal with the James Boys (Frank and Jesse) and very much a Manly Man herself.

The rest of the story...

*********************************************

FULL NAME: Myra Belle Shirley

BIRTH DATE: Feb. 5, 1848.

BIRTHPLACE: Carthage, Mo.

EDUCATION: Attended the Carthage Female Academy, where she excelled in reading, spelling, grammar, arithmetic, deportment, Greek, Latin, Hebrew, and music-learning to play the piano.

FAMILY BACKGROUND: Father John Shirley was a wealthy Carthage innkeeper, mother Elizabeth "Eliza" Hatfield Shirley was descended from the Hatfield end of the infamous Hatfield and McCoy family feud in the West Virginia-Kentucky region. Belle moved with her family to Sycene, Texas shortly before Carthage was burned to the ground by Confederate guerillas during the Civil War in 1864. That same year her older brother John "Bud" Shirley, who fought for the Confederacy with William C. Quantrill's guerillas, was killed by Union troops in Sarcoxie, Mo.

DESCRIPTION OF ACCOMPLISHMENTS: In the legendary period of American history known as the Old West, the law of the whole nation had yet to tame that frontier which was spottily settled. This resulted in lawlessness seen in the personage of those known as outlaws-lawbreakers whose notorious reputations often exceeded their very person to mythical proportions. Belle Starr was one such outlaw. From her association with outlaws such as Jesse James and the Younger brothers, she reached a level of fantastic notoriety that today leaves the facts of her life not always distinguishable from the fiction.

As a teenager during the Civil War, Belle Shirley reported the positions of Union troops to Confederacy. One of her childhood friends in Missouri was Cole Younger, who served in Quantrill's guerillas with Jesse and Frank James. After the war these men (and later Cole's three brothers, among others) turned to outlawry, primarily that of robbery of banks, trains, stagecoaches, and people. In their flights from lawmen they would sometimes hide out at the Shirley farm, through which Belle became very tight with the James and Younger gangs. Their influence would be part of the reason Belle would turn to crime herself.

In 1866, Belle married James C. "Jim" Reed, a former guerilla whom she had known since her childhood in Carthage. Their daughter Rosie Lee "Pearl" (who was later rumored to be Cole Younger's child) was born in 1868 and their son James Edwin "Ed" was born in 1871. While Jim initially tried his hand at farming, he would grow restless and fell in with bad company in that of the Starr clan, a Cherokee Indian family notorious for whiskey, cattle, and horse thievery in the Indian Territory (now Oklahoma), as well as his wife's old friends the James and Younger gangs. Then in 1869, Jim shot in cold blood the man who supposedly accidentally shot his brother in a quarrel. Wanted by the law, he fled to California with Belle and Pearl in tow. Here two years later Jim again ran afoul of the law for passing counterfeit money and with Belle, Pearl, and newborn son Ed fled to Texas.

In November 1873, Jim Reed with two other men robbed Watt Grayson, a wealthy Creek Indian farmer in the Indian Territory, of $30,000 in gold coins. Belle was named as an accomplice, however, there was very little proof of her involvement. Nonetheless, they both went into hiding from the law in Texas: Jim in the town of Paris and Belle and the children with her family in Sycene. Allegedly, she took Pearl and Ed and went to Dallas, where she lived off the gold from the Grayson robbery. She wore buckskins and moccasins or tight black jackets, black velvet skirts, high-topped boots, a man's Stetson hat with an ostrich plume, and twin holstered pistols. She spent much her time in saloons, drinking and gambling at dice, cards, and roulette. At times she would ride her horse through the streets shooting off her pistols. This wild behavior was among what gave rise to her rather exaggerated image as a pistol-wielding outlaw.

In April 1874, Jim held up the Austin-San Antonio stagecoach and robbed the passengers of about $2,500. A price of $7,000 was placed on his head and he went into hiding. The law caught up with him near Paris, Texas on Aug. 6, 1874, when Jim Reed was shot to death while trying to escape from the custody of a deputy sheriff.

The young widow of an outlaw, Belle left Texas, put her children in the care of relatives, and took up with the Starr clan in the Indian Territory west of Fort Smith, Arkansas. Here Belle immersed herself in outlawry: organizing, planning and fencing for the rustlers, horse thieves and bootleggers, as well as harboring them from the law. Belle's illegal enterprises proved lucrative enough for her to employ bribery to free her cohorts from the law whenever they were caught. When she was unable to buy off the lawmen, she was known to seduce them into looking the other way. All of the aforementioned confirmed Belle's status as an outlaw and her reputation would supersede her with the sensationalistic writing of the day. During this period she married Samuel Starr, a member of the infamous Starr clan, in 1880.

Judge Isaac C. Parker, a.k.a., "The Hanging Judge," of Fort Smith became obsessed with bringing Belle Starr to justice, but she eluded him at every turn. Then in 1882, charges of horse theft were brought against Belle and Sam by one of their neighbors in the Indian Territory. The jury returned a guilty verdict for each and in March 1883, Judge Parker sentenced Belle and Sam to a year in the House of Correction in Detroit, Mich. During her prison term Belle proved to be a model prisoner and won the respect of the prison matron, whereas Sam was more incorrigible and was assigned to hard labor. Nevertheless, they were both released after nine months and returned to the Indian Territory. In fact Belle proved not to have been reformed at all by prison for she-as well as Sam-almost immediately returned to their villainous ways. Belle's unrepentant attitude was best expressed in a comment to a Dallas newspaper reporter: "I am a friend to any brave and gallant outlaw."

Over the next several years Belle Starr would continue to find herself arrested for charges of robbery, however, Judge Parker would be forced to release her for lack of evidence. A particularly memorable such arrest was in 1886, when Belle was charged with robbing a post office while dressed as a man. That same year Sam Starr was killed by a longtime family nemesis. Shortly afterward Belle provided the legal counsel for Bluford "Blue" Duck, a Cherokee Indian indicted for murdering a farm hand. To Judge Parker's ire, the death sentence he imposed was commuted to life imprisonment. And in 1888, when her son Ed was arrested for horse theft, her lawyers contacted President Grover Cleveland, who overturned Judge Parker's seven-year prison sentence with a full pardon.

The notoriously unlawful life of Belle Starr came to a violent end on Feb. 3, 1889, two days short of her forty-first birthday. While riding from the general store to her ranch near Eufaula, Okla., Belle was killed by a shotgun blast to the back. Suspects included Edgar Watson, with whom Belle had been feuding over the land he was renting from her (Watson was a fugitive and Belle had been told by the authorities that she would lose all of her land if caught harboring fugitives and for once she was obeying), her lover a Cherokee named Jim July with whom she had recently had a quarrel, and her son Ed, with whom she had had a strained relationship. However, the identity of the murderer of Belle Starr was never identified. Belle Starr was buried on her ranch with a marble headstone on which was engraved a bell, her horse, a star and the epitaph written by her daughter Pearl which reads:

"Shed not for her the bitter tear,
Nor give the heart to vain regret;
'Tis but the casket that lies here,
The gem that filled it sparkles yet."

Even in her lifetime Belle Starr had become a legend through the yellow journalism of her day. This status would be reinforced through the years by-in addition to the press-dime novel literature and the Hollywood motion picture industry. The result is that today historians continue attempting to decipher the facts of Belle Starr's life from the fiction.

DATE OF DEATH: Feb. 3, 1889, age 40 (shot to death).

PLACE OF DEATH: near Eufaula, Okla.


*******************************************

The commercial said she shot a man once for snorin' too loud.

From reading that article . . . I bet she was a virgin too. What do y'all think?

Wild Bill Bucket's Bad Luck
 

'Aces and Eights,' Bucket.

The Dead Man's Hand.