Ryder Cup Hangover
 

Okay, something has to be done about these lop-sided shellackings. The Ryder Cup formula just isn't working, at least not for the U.S.

What to do?

Here are a few options off the top of my head. Vote your favorite or vote your own (other). Then post your comments on the thread. This nonsense has to stop!

I think the Ryder cup should remain as is....

On paper you guys should have a great shot and changing the rules just because USA is not winning is not the solution. Ok, the USA has done poorly the last few years but that will eventually change at some point and when it does - don't you want to feel that you won because you fairly won, and not just because you changed the rules....

I went w/ the Tiger option, but not because of Tiger. I'd just like to see the captain have more control over the makeup of the team. We've got some guys who just can't seem to get it done in match play but will likely be on the team for quite a while because they're good on tour.

Dunno if there is any truth to what some of the announcers said: "Europeans tend to play a lot more matchplay than Americans"

I'd say at least 75% of the rounds I play are in some kind of match format. Either team or individual.

Any difference there?

The Answer . . .
 

Four Words . . .

RIC FLAIR.

Predator's Complaint
 

Thanks for this, metallion.

Conducting more match play events on the PGA TOUR is definitely another option. Especially in Team Format. Learn to win -- with a 'buddy.' :confused1

Could it happen?

Yes.

Will it happen?

Probably not.

Why?

Because it is not the 'culture' of the PGA TOUR. Never has been and never will be. The TOUR is a nomadic tribe of truly independent contractors. Each pays his own bus fare, room, meals, and caddy. Those who don't perform, don't eat, and they're back to Triple A -- read Nationwide Tour -- in a heartbeat. From there, it is to a Player's Oblivion of mini-tours and club jobs. These competitive folk most definitely are NOT 'team players.' They cannot afford to be.

In fact, they are The Meateaters. And the meat they eat is that of those against whom they compete every day.

When paired with their natural enemy, they just don't know how to function.

:)

My suggestion is copied from some unkwnown reporter, Don't include the top 5 US players.

All of the above deserve to be efforted to some degree. However, I chose to afford the captain greater latitude in determining the composition of the team. There is a tremendous hole in this logic, but I will get to that.

My thoughts are that the current quantitative qualification is unreliable beyond the first 5 or 6 players. It does not take into account the momentum of the player, consistency, durability, persistency, or tenacity. Leave us not forget the value of experience, either. If they tracked this statistical process for 5 cycles (heaven help us), I am willing to wager it would show it has no validity in predicting the success of an individual in the Ryder Cup. Of greater importance, it denies the necessary long term "breeding" or perspective of the Ryder Cup institution, which needs to be taken beyond our quarterly earnings per share mentality.

Foremost, it should be explained to the PGA selection committee that denial is not a river in Egypt. Their assumption that stats will devine their Dream Team, obviates the reality that some players thrive beyond anticipated capabilities in the Ryder Cup formats. And quite often it is purely a result of teaming the proper players. A smart captain picks by twos, or picks a wild card who melds with a member of the core. A smart captain also pulls Tiger aside and tells him to make one pick. He tells him to make it good, because that is with whom he is going to be partnered. And he, as the best player in the world, will be held accountable for the outcome.

A smart captain. That's the hole in my selection. Four bad player selections is twice as bad as two. Which nicely scurries me to what I see as the true reason the US teams' effectiveness has smelled like my golf shoes after residing in my car trunk all summer.

As a part of undeniable realities, justice has a way of insisting upon itself. The US will be fighting a karmic uphill battle until Larry Nelson is made captain. Call it bad karma. Call it the Larry Nelson Curse. A pox which that fine man would graciously never wish upon the appropriate PGA demagogues. However, being basically intemperant and lacking Nelson's distinguished character, I most effortlessly wish upon them just desserts for denying the imperative choice. This is until this wrong has been righted, and justice and Nelson have been properly honored.

I hope that's not over the top. The Ryder Cup deserves consideration without politics, and abandonment of the cold statistics which replace thoughtful judgement.

Other
 

Let the rest of the world play for the Presidents Cup, under a different banner. Everyone except Euros and US.

Form the U.S. team much earlier. At least a year. Let the chemistry develop.

Play MORE matches together and practice like every other successful sports team practices, all together.

Funny how the US are a "team" when they're winning -Brookline?

If you hit the shots and make the putts -you win.But you've got to do it in the pressure of the Ryder Cup.

Observations from practise day
 

Went to the K club on the Wednesday. After the weather susided the players emerged to rapturous applause (both teams). The Europeans all took their time wading through the crowds smiling signing autographs. They then split up into groups and played golf stopping after each green to smile, chat and have a laugh with the crowds. They played the holes properly hitting a few balls here an there and trying putts from different spots. They took their time going back to the clubhouse. The US team all gathered with glum faces and played as one big mob. Hitting shots into the greens as if they were on the range. They didnt bother putting at all on any of the holes I saw (they didnt want to practise putting on wet greens or they didnt want any contact with the admiring crowds?). They zipped around and then disappeared back into the clubhouse never to be seen again.

At the end of the day it was putting that let them down.

Im not sure what the problem is. It certainly isnt golfing ability.

Could be:

The US guys dont like to travel overseas?

The courses on the PGA Tour are too uniform especially the greens?

There is no socialising between players on the US Tour?

There is too much pressure on them to perform instead of seeing it as an exhibition where they give something back to the fans and actually have a laugh? Its an end of season party with a bit of a match (which is what they are meant to love).

Mr Verplank certainly looked like he had a few things to say but managed to bite his tongue in the interview I saw.

How about getting a non US captain next time? It works in football (soccer).

The main thing is the matches were played in good spirit and we didn't have any Kiawah or Brookline nonsense.

Heres looking forward to 2008.

Jack, Arnie and Ben aren't working thru that door...
 

Maybe the Euros are just better players, despite what the world rankings say.

Actually, I think all the Euros were ranked in the top 20 in the world.


If the US squad only knew of TGM...

Actually... I'm surprised you are the only one saying this. WWII decimated European golf, so the US pretty much dominated for roughly a generation. But I actually thought this years European team was much better balanced and on average more talented then our team. Enough so that it was clear, even to a somewhat biased observer like myself. What puzzles me is why are you and I the only ones who see it that way.

The other thing that puzzles me is why is Tiger less dominant in match play now? As an amateur he was pretty special, as a pro he seems to lack the energy he had when younger. The Euro's are also not particularly awed by him either.

In good company?
 

psheehan,

Johnny Miller was pretty vocal with this as well. I don't often agree with Miller, but I think in this case he was right.

I just hope Miller doesn't make a recomendation that the U.S. team be allowed to bring in Canada and Mexico to make things more competitive :naughty: . Then again, Mike Weir :think: :whistle: ....never mind.

The PGA of America has spoken
 

Looks like the PGA voted to increase the number of captains picks and change the points system. More here: http://www.pgatour.com/story/9783253

On the Money Poll
 

These were two of the LBG poll choices. For what its worth, the 'Captain's picks' option garnered 18 percent of the vote. The change in the points system received no votes.

But "other" received 30%!

Also, Hal Sutton seems to be very upset with the whole thing-not just the Ryder cup but with the whole money issue-says U.S.players are just chasing the dollar and have no passion-or something like that.:(

Ideas Of Their Own
 

Right you are, Neil. It seems our members have their own ideas about what is wrong with the situation and what could be done about it.

Couldn't agree with Daz more about the practice days. The Euros looked like they were playing matches within their foursomes. At the conclusion of the hole, they would chip and putt from various locations. On to the next hole and the match resumed. The Eoros also seemed to have a sense of comraderie and enjoyed playing together. The US team did not bother to tee off, unless it was a par 3, and walked down to a spot in the fairway to hit approach shots.

I was at the K-Club for the whole week. Tiger seemed as if he didn't want to be there, and Mickelson looked like a man trying not to lose than a guy trying to win. Their play bore out these impressions. The rookies provided the only spark,for the team, with the play of JJ Henry and Zack Johnson.

The PGA should consider drawing 12 players out of a hat, excluding Woods and Mickelson from the pool. The U.S. might have a better chance of getting a team that is enthusiastic about playing and winning. Instead of posturing and whinning.

It would also be great to see Larry Nelson as captain. It is shameful that a 3 time major champion, which includes 2 PGA's, has been overlooked. With the recent peformance of U.S. teams, the U.S. captain seems to be responsible for little more than the wardrobe selection. And as there is a retro 70's trend in golf fashion, the PGA may reconsider Larry Nelson. He definelty has experience with that fashion genre.

Many thanks to the K-Club and their grounds staff. It is a great venue for such a premier event. The course was very playable under some wet conditions, and the ground staff was constantly putting wood chips out making the spectator walk ways passable. The British PGA made us very welcome and comfortable at their hospitality tent. The european fans cheered all good shots and players, of course their team with greater enthusiasm. I will never forget the genuinely warm and hearty hospitality of Ireland

Larry Nelson -- Champion
 

Thank you for your insightful post, Sligo33. For the U.S. team, perhaps the times will be "a'changin'." Then again, perhaps not.

Regarding one Larry G. Nelson, I could not agree more. Let's begin with the fact that he did not begin playing golf until he was 21 years old. :shock:

Now, getting a late start in golf doesn't necessarily qualify one for Captain of the Ryder Cup team. So, let's add a few more details...

Ten PGA TOUR victories;

Two PGA Championships (1981, 1987);

One U.S. Open (1983).

Three winning Ryder Cup Teams (1979, 1981, 1987).

This last stat is especially significant because Larry has the best record in the history of the Ryder Cup...undefeated on his first two teams. Read that:

9-0.

You want golf record? You got golf record.

You want courage...personal courage under fire?

Larry Nelson at age 20 was the 'point man' on more combat missions through South Vietnamese jungles than you can count. Unlike many, he lived to tell about it.

But he won't.

He is also the straightest-arrow husband, father and friend you have ever met in your life.

Consider the above and I think you have way more than the stuff of a Ryder Cup Captain.

Why was he 'passed over?' Only the politicos of the PGA know.

Remember, the Ryder Cup is a PGA of America event, not a PGA TOUR event. And during Larry's 'time,' the nod went first to Lanny Wadkins -- who himself said 'they' saw Larry's superior play and gave the captaincy to him instead -- and then to Tom Kite. Then to Ben Crenshaw and Curtis Strange and Hal Sutton. Finally, despite the intense lobbying for Larry by the committee of past Captains, to Tom Lehman. With all due respect to Tom -- a nice guy who finished first -- a guy just as nice with a far better record finished second. And now...Paul Azinger.

Does anyone want to compare records?

Anyone?

Larry, of course, remains the ultimate gentleman. Read this interview at http://www.golfonline.com/golfonline...333487,00.html.

Meanwhile, since joining the Champions Tour, Larry has continued his outstanding career. He's racked up 19 Champions Tour victories and almost $14,000,000 in Official Money. He was the Tour's 2000 Leading Money Winner and Player of the Year. Check this out: http://www.pgatour.com/players/00/18...dia-guide.html

I am proud to call Larry Nelson my friend. We have known each other since we mustered out of the service about the same time in the early '70s. With two very different career paths, we both joined Atlanta Country Club some thirty years ago. Last night, ACC members celebrated his outstanding accomplishments and induction into the World Golf Hall of Fame.

The first image below is of Larry's World Golf Hall of Fame Award, and also, the large framed photo of his 1987 PGA win that today hangs in the Atlanta CC's lobby entrance. Other photographs that hang in that gallery include Davis Love, III, 1997 PGA Champion, whose father, Davis Love, Jr., was our first Head Professional. Also, Bob Tway, Jr. 1986 PGA Champion, son of member Bob Tway, Sr. Finally, Joe Inman, Jr., a PGA TOUR winner and Champions Tour 2000 Rookie of the Year.

The second is of Larry and me. I'm proud of that moment and all it captured. With this inspiration, I'll soon post in the 'Young Yoda' thread a snapshot of a much younger duo taken on the practice tee of Atlanta Country Club, a week after Larry won the U.S. Open at Oakmont. That was a fond memory, too.

The third photo is with Larry's wife Gayle, and Bert Seagraves and his wife, Susan. Bert, a two-time Georgia PGA Professional of the Year, was Head Professional at Pinetree C.C. when Larry went to work in his only 'club pro' job.

The final photo is with John Gerring, PGA Master Professional, 1981 National PGA Professional of the Year, and for 15 years the Head Professional of Atlanta CC. He is now Head Professional of Peachtree Golf Club, Bobby Jones's 'Atlanta' course.

It was indeed a night of memories. First, we viewed the film of Larry's accomplishments shown at his induction last year into the World Golf Hall of Fame. Then, we listened to several reminiscences of Larry's close professional friends. Finally, we were privileged to hear from The Man himself.

After the close of ceremonies, I asked Larry to sign my copy of the photo you see in the Gerring photograph (a tee shot off the 18th at The Masters). He thought for a moment and then wrote this:


Wow.

Over the years, I have watched Larry hit thousands of balls both on the practice tee and in tournament play. But, in no way could I be considered his teacher or coach.

Nevertheless, inexplicably, the words are there, and they are his.

If you have yet to get the picture...

That's Larry Nelson.

I don't know.
 

How can the top strok players be competitive in match play?

Great....
 

...story on Larry, Yoda.

Makes me even more eager to see your book on GOLF hit the shelfs. :drool:

YODA

I am of a little different view, I would suggest that PGA players are team players; a number of them play in best ball matchs or match play events every Tuesday. I believe the main issue rests in the Captain's chair. How many "coachs" in other sports would allow a member or members of the team to practice by themselves? Or, as a coach (captain) if you are going to have player A and player B play alternate shot (where the US gets killed), why would you not have them practice same. Any team, golf or otherwise, is only as good as its LEADER

:salut:

Any insight to the so-called "secret" Nick Faldo has mentioned that has suppossedly helped Europe dominate jover the past 20 years?

We Europeans could tell you- but why should we?:)

So that the Europeans will stop dominating "jover." Note to self: use spellcheck. :happy3:

Take the top 12 Americans from the Fedex point standing for the playoffs only. It might even get Tiger to play in the first event.

bogiefree
 

The team needs to be made up of the players that are playing the best over the last month or so. Let the captain have more choices.

The Good Old Days
 

We should go back to beating the U.K.! It takes an entire continent to handle the U.S.! I agree with Yoda in that the players on the U.S. Tour do not "play" as well for one another as the Euros do. I have heard (from those in the know) that the European Tour has a great deal more comraderie etc. I guess they develop that while enjoying competing with one another on the the runner-up tour in the world! Some say American players are pampered and spoiled, that in turn dampens the competitive drive. When European Tour based players start winning more majors I will buy into that. 2 out of 4 last year was a pretty good start, though!

OK,Okie,
Do you know how many golfers /golfcourses there are in Europe compared to the USA,
Look it up because I may be wrong,but something like 6 times as many people play golf in the USA.:eyes:
Do you really want to go back to playing a country the size of Florida?-and whupping them every time!:happy3:

UK and Ireland
 

It was UK and Ireland before Europe joined in the fun not just the UK.

No, not really!
 

You ARE wrong! After a quick search I turned up the following numbers: Number of courses in the UK = 200, number of courses in the U.S. = 16, 052 and rapidly counting! My comment was tongue in cheek. Perhaps European nations should compete as a team in the Olympics as well (tongue in cheek, again!) I love the way the European players get it together for the Ryder Cup. I absolutely loved watching Seve and Olazabal do their thing. I am not seriously advocating a return to the exhibition days, they were seldom a fair fight.

Sorry for the Ireland oversight! Who can forget the shot Christy O'Connor Jnr hit at the Belfry in '89! That one hurt! Was it Christy O'Connor Snr, or the Welshman Neil Coles that was a prodigious ball striker but had a fear of flying?

I am waiting for the inevitable complacency (that multiple wins produces) to set in! Then we will have another Kiawah Island (hopefully without the antics!) I almost cried for Bernhard Langer that year! What a class act he is. In fact, it seems like the traditional approach to golf in Europe tends to produce that kind of player. It's a Dutch game, made viable by the Scots and dominated by colonials! Insert tongue in cheek icon, here!

Coles and "Himself"
 

Neil Coles was an Englishman who was indeed a great ball striker and who refused to fly. I saw him play in the Irish Seniors Open a few years ago when he was 72 in Fota in Cork and he was very impressive for his age. The tournement had no ropes so I was able to walk along side him for a few holes.

Christy O'Connor Snr or "Himself" as we call him in Ireland was a spectacular ball striker. I only got to saw him play when he was quite old but it was a sight to behold. In his clinic he used to put a ball in a divot then stand on it and then proceed to hit a high draw using a driver. Plugged bunker shots stone dead one handed etc etc. Remarkable talent who would have one several opens if his putting had been better

There is a story about "Himself"[or knowing the Irish:) ,an urban myth].
He was on the tee at Royal Troon at the famous "postage stamp" par 3 ,and a group of American tourists came up behind him as he proceeded to miss the green with a short iron.One of the Americans commented on how easy the hole was[very short] ,and how could a pro miss it.Christie turned around and bet the group he could hit it with every club in his bag-and proceeded to do so!
Great story ,true or not -and if he did ,I'll bet he had a wager on it!:)

Oops!
 

I bungled it AGAIN. I got Coles confused with Dai Rees! You better have a serious down and out motion to low point to hit an embedded ball with a high draw (with a driver no less!) Anybody out there old enough to have watched
Sir Henry Cotton play, or swing? I have heard from bias sources that he was every bit as a good of a ball striker as Hogan. I think it was a top golf writer of the era that suggested that he had seen both at their peak and Cotton may have been better! Bias always comes into play on these things, though. Cotton believed in educated hands, though. I think the car tire may have been the original impact bag!

:confused1 The guy who hit Driver out of a divot was Christie O'Conner jnr-or 'HIMSELF' -He could play ANY SHOT!:golf:

Gotcha!
 

Gotcha...thanks!

Afraid not. Christy O'Connor Senior was the man who hit the driver out the divot. My regular golfing partner saw it himself and we discuss it regularly. Also here in Ireland we refer to Christy Snr as "Himself".

Perhaps Junior can also hit a driver out of a divot but that's not what I was referring to in my post above.

Right you are Sean,my mistake-my earlier post regarding Troon should also have referenced Sr-"Himself".
I've committed a big sin in Ireland! Sorry Boys:salut:

At this moment in time the Ryder Cup is in crisis.

Two massive wins for Europe and the US members talking about how the Presidents Cup is actually a better event. :rolleyes:

Whats next? If they lose this one will they say the Tavistock Cup is better?

Sad to say but what the Ryder Cup needs more than anything is an American win by half a point and all the tension and drama that goes along with it.

What it doesn't need is some of the nonsense that Azinger is spouting regarding Faldo. Its a game for gentlemen zinger - have your views but keep them private!