3,4 barrel hitting
 

I have seen the term 3barrel, 4 barrel hitting here. Can someone please give a brief (if possible :wink: ) explanation of what this is and what it is all about? Thanks.

The number of "barrels" refers to how many Power Accumulators you are employing in your stroke. Single barrel is one, double is two, etc.

Hitters usually employ a triple barrel stroke using accumulators 1, 2, and 3. A Swinger's triple barrel is usually 2, 3, and 4. There can be four barrel Hitting but not four barrel Swinging.

Do you have the book? 6-B is the key to understanding all of this.

Thanks for the reply Matt. I have ordered the book but it is not here yet.

Four Barrel Swinging
 

Sorry

There is four barrel swinging...look to the third edition stroke patterns, the 4 accumulator pattern is a swinging four barrel pattern. Look to the current edition on p. 37, the four barrel swinging pattern is talked about on that page!!! "in which case -- to Pivot thrust add a strong Pressure Point #4 (should be #1 Pressure Point per the revised 7th edition) thrust per 10-19-C (hence four barrel swinging).

DG

Four-Barrel Swinging -- Left Arm And Right
 

In Four-Barrel Hitting, the Right Elbow (#1 Accumulator) drives the entire Primary Lever Assembly, i.e., it drives both the Left Arm and the Clubshaft. In Four-Barrel Left Arm Swinging, the Right Elbow drives only the Left Arm,not the Club. This action is the above-referenced 10-19-C application that can be used to "support the pull of the Clubshaft..."especially for Short Shot Power."

Any attempt to drive the Club radially with Right Arm Thrust will result in opposition by Centrifugal Force and an actual Power Loss. That is because Centrifugal Force, which is driving the Club at its own very steady rate after its 'Instant Acceleration' Start Down, does not wish to be disturbed. In the event the muscular override is successful, the result will almost certainly be a bent Left Wrist and geometric disaster. Accordingly, Homer Kelley was adamant in his view regarding any attempt to add Right Arm Thrust to a Swing. In his own words: "There is absolutely no point."

Remember, though, that Radial Right Arm Thrust is a Pushing Action -- like turning a wheel by pushing on one of its spokes. This is not the same thing as the Right Arm Swing, a sound procedure whose Longitudinal Centrifugal Acceleration is the result of the Right Arm's Pulling of the Clubshaft in the direction its butt end is pointing.

There is no Four Barrel Right Arm Swinging because it is impossible to Pull with the Right Arm and Push with the Right Arm at the same time.

Re: Four-Barrel Swinging -- Left Arm And Right
 

Yoda,

Please, please, please...just for my edification, detail the right arm swinging procedure. Doesn't the right elbow become the center of the swing thus decreasing radius power? Isn't the chubshaft thrown in-line with the right arm and thus producing a bent left wrist? If so, what would be the advantages of using right arm swinging over three barrel swinging or hitting?

EC

Yoda,

You wrote, "In Four-Barrel Left Arm Swinging, the Right Elbow drives only the Left Arm, not the Club."

I see a Sea Change here! You are NOW saying there is 4-barrel Swing. The problem here is that with any grip OTHER THAN A CROSSHANDED ONE, it's not possible for the Right Elbow to drive the Left Arm without also radially driving the club, because the force will be applied between PP #2 and the clubhead.

Friends,
There can be a 4-Barrel Left Arm Swing(10-3-B), But only a 3-Barrel Right Arm Swing Procedure(Bat-10-3-K). In a 4-Barrel version the right arm is applying support to the left arm ONLY, NOT the Entire Primary lever which would definitely be Hitting. I never knew Mr. Kelley, so I don't have the "ANSWER". However, I feel the reason it is not recommended to use the right arm "Actively" for this procedureis due to several factors;
1.) The danger of Right Arm Thrust stifling Centrifugal Force and it's"Natural" Modus Operandi
2.) It could change a sequenced release to a simultaneous release of Accumulators #2 & #3.
3.) Changing from an Arc of Approach (On-Line) to a Angle of Approach delivery line can result with Drag Loading some serious Blocks and/or Hooks.
4.) The tendency for right Arm Thrust Producing an Uncentered Angled Hinge and an above plane shift of the clubhead due to the cross-line momentum "out" toward right field (2-j-3 4th,5th &, 6th editions)

There are probably more and more reasons why 4-barrel swinging is NOT ADVISED ...Can it be done ....Yes BUT why was the last sentence of 10-4-D written?...Less than fully mastered...Notice no comment toward swinging or hitting.

By the Way....3rd Edition 12-4 is a 4-barrel stroke pattern for swinging ...Read 12-4-0 with Care!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

1.) Grip - Basic Overlap
2.) Grip Type - Strong Single
3.) Stroke - Basic SLAP/PITCH in the later editions
4.) Stroke Variation - FOUR - BARREL
5,) Plane Line - Closed/Closed
6.) Plane Angle Basic - Elbow
7.) Plane Angle - Variation Double Shift
8.) Fix - Standard
9.) Address - Standard
10.) Hinge Action - Dual Horizontal
11.) Pressure Point Combination - FOUR POINT
12.) Pivot - Standard
13.) Shoulder Turn - Standard
14.) Hip Turn - Standard
15.) Hip Action - Standard
16.) Knee Action - Standard
17.) Foot Action - Standard
18.) Wrist Action - STANDARD
19.) Lag Loading - DRAG
20.) Trigger Type - WRIST THROW
21.) Assembly Point - END
22.) Loading Action - SNAP
23.) Delivery Path - TOP ARC/ANGLED LINE
24.) Release - AUTOMATIC SNAP

Something or Someone is Wrong Here!!!!
Checkout items ....#3,#4,#11, #18-24 these are all compatible with a swing procedure...Yes?....However, "To Swing orTto HIT ? That is THE QUESTION!

To Solve this Question...Go employ this stroke procedure and see what the findings are to the research....I recommend an indoor range with a VERY High Shutter Speed Camera (1/4000 or higher) I DON'T THINK ANYONE should try this on the golf course or even the driving range with out the supervision of a camera....After all the Great Ben Hogan used the mirrors in his hotel rooms to get feed back from the driving range....Then he "Dug It Out of the Ground!"

By the Way does this stroke pattern resemble anyone at all or is it simply the "IDEAL" in one's own mind or theorectically speaking type of forum?

Where's the Tylenol?

Annikan

Mission Impossible
 

There is no Four-Barrel Swing wherein the Right Arm actively Drives the Club as a substitute for Centrifugal Force. Such an action is, by definition, a Hit.

However, that does not preclude the Right Arm's support of the Clubshaft Pull through Pressure Point #1 (10-19-C). And when the Swinger applies Right Arm Power in any manner other than active Extensor Action and passive Lag Pressure, the Stroke may be properly labeled Four-Barrelled.

Actively or passively, Pressure Points #2 and #3 drive the Hands. Similarly, Pressure Points #1 and #4 drive the Arms. This is true regardless of an individual Pressure Point's Location with respect to another. Therefore, it is possible for the Right Arm to actively drive the Left Arm (through Pressure Point #1) at the same time Centrifugal Force drives the Club (through Pressure Point #2).

For the reasons stated in my prior post, that does not make it advisable.

Annikan wrote, "There can be a 4-Barrel Left Arm Swing(10-3-B)".

Then explain how you can use #1 Accumulator(extend the Right Elbow with the Right Tricep) and NOT apply radial force to the handle. With any of the usual grips, #1 PP is below #2 PP and pressure applied to #1 will lever the club with the #2 PP becoming a fulcrum.

The Right Arm Swinger's Low Point
 

Yes. With the Right Elbow now the Stroke Center, the Low Point of the Stroke is directly beneath it. Remember though, that the Right Elbow location -- and hence the Low Point -- is constantly moving forward as the Downstroke progresses. Thus, at Impact, it ideally will be Located in front of the Ball.

EC,

You studied with Tomasello on a regular basis....didn't he teach you the approach that he taught on the Australia video....a pulling action with the right forearm.....I believe what he taught is from 7-19....."The "Right Arm Swing" is simply 10-3-K (right arm acceleration) with loosened Wrists (7-1) and longitudinal acceleration using 7-19-3 above.

Just go to the quiver demonstration on the tape, that section explains the use of power really well.

The Right Arm Swing when properly executed does not eliminate centrifugal force or better said throw-out action.


In the end guys, does the stroke create repeatable straight shots (machine like)....I can tell the right arm swing does....end of story.


DG

Yoda,

You wrote, "And when the Swinger applies Right Arm Power in any manner other than active Extensor Action and passive Lag Pressure, the Stroke may be properly labeled Four-Barrelled."

If that "manner" is a straightening of the Right Arm using the Right Tricep, then you will apply radial force to the shaft. You will interfere with CF. So while you may properly label it as "4 barrelled", you will also have to label it as a "Screwed Up Swing".

Right Arm Swing Q&A
 

1. Doesn't the right elbow become the center of the swing thus decreasing radius power?

Yes on both counts. The Swing Center becomes the Stroke Center with the geometric implications as explained in my answer to rwh above. You are also correct that the Right Arm Swinger forfeits the Radius Power (Body Momentum Transfer into the Left Arm). In its place, there is the Power of Right Arm Pull. Whether or not that Pull is sufficient to replace the lost Radius Power will depend upon the player.

2. Isn't the chubshaft thrown in-line with the right arm and thus producing a bent left wrist?

With the Right Elbow now the Swing Center, the Flat Left wrist is helpful but not essential. Until and unless the Clubshaft actually passes the In Line Condition with the Right Arm prior to Impact, there is no Throwaway.

3. If so, what would be the advantages of using right arm swinging over three barrel swinging or hitting?

Potential advantages depend upon the skill and preferences of the individual player. These could include simplicity of execution; greater Throwaway margin of error; and the addition of Right Arm Power -- Longitudinal not Radial! -- to a Swinging Stroke.

Ernie Els doesn't seem to have a power issue....he doesn't use momentum transfer....checkout Ernie's book "How to Build a Classic Golf Swing" page 41.

I don't believe the arc transfer to the right elbow is correct. It's a rope handle procedure (longitudinal acceleration) not an axe procedure. Yoda, I think you MIGHT have jumped the gun on this one. Study 10-3-D and all of the references....the section 3 combination for what Tomasello taught is 10-3-B, -D and -K. I believe that's why Tommy called it "The Swinging Procedure".


DG

4 Barrel Left Arm Swing
 

I believe Annikan is semi-correct....Ok the right arm swing is a 4 barrel Left Arm Swing (per 10-3-B), it's not two different procedures, Annikan with further review, I believe you have to include 10-3-D and 10-3-K...10-3-D includes the pulling action with the right forearm and 10-3-K supplies the right arm acceleration.

Annikan...does Homer mention a 4 barrel left arm swing in any of the earlier editions in 10-3-B.

I have used the 4 Barrel Swing above with a couple of modifications (knee action and foot action)....it works very well with your long shots off of the te...Driver, Woods and Long Irons...I wouldn't use it for your scoring clubs.

DG

Friends,
You are exactly right with your Explanation/Discussion/Debate on the Right Arm Swing....Dead ON!!!! But someone Please read my entire post NOT JUST THE FIRST SENTENCE, PLEASE..... Talk to me about the #3,#11, #18 -24 components of the "hypothetical" Stroke pattern from the 3rd ediition. Is this a Swing or a Hit? If it is a HIT described here then fine, but then there are errors in the Book. or at least the early editions.

Please review the checklist as listed in the early post for learning purposes only.NOT FOR ARGUEMENTS SAKE. I am not to proud to admit a mistake ...I probably have made several in the last post...Just I want people to read and study the component checklist, NOT ONE SENTENCE or WORD and jump on the errors.

Thank you, Still friends!

Annikan

if you want to see four barrel swinging watch three of the very best.John Daley-Freddie Couples and the best of all Jack Nicklaus.its easy to spot because you can see the "flying right elbow"it gives more power and greater rotation in the swing.the fourth barrel is great when mastered but can lead to a lot of problems during learning.i have used it plenty of times and can highley recommend it,you get on the tee and its almost as though you can hit the ball as far as you want.playing partners just stand there amazed!!!.

Do you apply the Right Arm at Release, between Release and Impact, or at Impact?

when using the four barrel swinging method,it is the purest method of swinging the club.the right elbow has to be loaded during the loading sequence of the swing.it cannot be applied during release or impact or any other stage because centrifugal force drives the swing and no manipulation should be used,such as when hitting.but i can tell you that it is very important to store the power as long as possible using this method.you need to delay the release as lond as possible,it should feel like your right elbow straightens after it is passed the ball.

What you have described here is only a 3-barrel Swing using Accumulators 4,2,3. The Right Arm must be straightened with Right Tricep action to add Accum #1, and it must be done sometime before Impact.