swing left, and look like this
 

If I get one more guy that's been told to swing left, I'm going to pull the rest of my hair out. I believe he had plenty of left.
This was our first lesson, so there's plenty more to do. But, this was a good start.

Ted,
That 'swing left' stuff from you know who's instruction is absolutely amazing to me. That guy believes the base line of the plane is a friggin circle????? What is with that???

Good job on straightening out another lost soul.

Good job man. Swing left is something that I am working hard to get rid of (Ted will know what I am talking about)
So what is the next step in helping this guy on?
Alex

looks like working on that right elbow bend a little. Hard to tell from the angle but looks like he has that right arm bent to 120 degrees wich is causing him to bend heis left arm

Ted,

What do you think the point of swing left means? Do you believe it's a startdown to impact thought/concept/methodolgy??? Your thoughts?

Another question...Did this golfer personally study with the golf instructor who teaches this swing left approach or did this individual read a book that told him to swing left?

DG

he had bad concepts, but perfect application
 

Mainly, I think that it's a total misunderstanding of the geometry. People see the clubhead blur in a circle, so they attempt to draw circles instead of straight lines. Also, the circle seems to match a rotary motion. I asked him about his concepts. He spoke mostly about body power, turning hard to the left, etc. I think most of his information came from reading magazine articles and hearsay.

I've seen a mat that wanted you to trace a circle with a laser ("F" in geometry). Needless to say, Homer had it right about tracing the straight baseline. 2-J-3 shows us the visual equivalents. Simply placing balls on the ground to cover with the clubhead does not consider the geometric basis of the inclined plane. How would one decide the degree of curvature? There are no degrees of straight lines. Either you're tracing a straight line, or you're not. It's that simple.

You can't drop your hands straight down from the top, then rotate like a compass. The club goes down, out, and forward simultaneously and on-plane. They are not sequenced motions as some teach.

wait until I fix his Impact
 

After the plane change, he went from a 100 yard 7 iron to a 140 yard 7 iron. After a few expletives, he said he couldn't believe it.

I saved his Impact pictures (wow!!), so I can't wait until he returns. We're going to educate his hands. The next change will truly be remarkable.

Mark Evershed uses a laser at the end of a club and he demonstrates tracing a straight plane line after impact with a bent right wrist. He explains the hands have to move left to keep the point of the laser on plane. He calls it swinging the hands left. Is this what we're talking about here?

Based on Ted's comments, it appears the swing left is not coming from Evershed. The swing left concept that Mark teachs is acutally 1-L-15, a post impact condition.

DG

Section 1-L
 

Ted,

Why doesn't 1-L-13 mention the word "Forward"???

And why does Homer mention the golf swing in this way in 12-5-0...."Use a slow, smooth motion up-and-back, down-and-out and up-and-in the same distance in both directions and continously as possible." No mention of forward there either???

DG

I don't know. YodasLuke needs to explain himself better. Is he talking about Hardy? Manzella? Evershed? What does he think swinging left is?

Go ahead YodasLuke...

...thrill us with your acumen!

I think Ted has explained himself quite well. It is a modern golf axiom to swing to the left. Most have an OTT move- Outside to In to achieve this or swing the club around without a proper 3 Dimensional Incline Plane- just trace a circle with the clubhead on a ground line.

If you continue to trace a straight plane line with the Hands and have proper rhythm (TGM definition of course), the Pivot will move the hands to the inside-visually to the left. And without any independent Hand movement that this axiom wrong implies to many.

Forward? Good question DG. I don’t know. I think the linear motion to the ball was implied where as the Down and Out on Plane to Joe Duffer isn’t??

cheap shot:naughty:

I hope Ted comes with his thoughts on this matter.

My thoughts would be that people do not have enough down and out.

In their attempts to hit it far they add more forward to the already existing, and thereby "forgets" about the down. In most cases, they do not know that an out exists.

Hereby Mr. Kelleys stresses the importance of, perhaps, the 2 most important elements of the 3D downstroke.

But then again, it is only my interpretation.....I could be wrong

How do you monitor tracing a straight line during your swing??

Isn't that why people use visual equivalents.... isn't that what VJ does with his "Putting arc"... the arc is same as placing balls on the ground / arc on a mat surely...?

The best i have got is using a half plane board and keeping left flat /right bent wrists from release to follow through... no reason why you can't use a transparent board and paper underneath and mark on it where your specifc visual equivalents are with a particular club... use the illusions to allow you to perform geometry....

Tracing lines with lasers i find less worthwhile than planeboads... the plane angle can vary so much with lasers... at least in my hands.... whole of he clubshaft lies on flat plane.... keeps same angle better at least during release to follow through...

exactly my intent
 

Thanks 6B,
It is the axiom that I find to be beneath contempt. I, honestly, could care less who teaches such things. I will not. It's frustrating enough for me to hear the things that people have been told (even more so when they can accomplish them). So, I know it's frustrating for someone like this guy that was pounding 7 irons 100 yards. :eyes:

Not that anyone wants to take this a step further, but, the visual arc sharpens as the plane shallows. And, the visual arc straightens as the plane becomes steeper. Ultimately, it can become a visually straight line in the Angle of Approach Procedure.

The points are simply these:

1. Most see Low Point and Impact as the same thing.

2. Telling someone to swing left has no geometric basis and will encourage the bypassing of Low Point (encouraging for 1st point). But, if you'd like to encourage Roundhousing, it's an incomparable suggestion.

3. The degree of visual curvature is based in the steepness of the plane.

Chapter 5
 

Chapter 5 is a good place to find the answer. Homer gives us plenty on this subject. HANDS, HANDS, HANDS...

On page 64 in the 7th edition, he gives the alternative (pivot controlled hands). With this procedure, he is less than encouraging.

I love the sentence at the bottom:
"However, if the Clubhead is Monitored directly instead of through the Hands, it is, as always, a chronic disaster."

I guess that sums it up. Thanks Homer.

Nice 'un! Make the world go 'round in circles . . . make it fly high like a bird up in the sky.

Yoda,

Love this post!
#3 is very over looked when people say go left. Not to take away from the total view of what may work for a low handicap player who may get the low point ( I would hope)
I have seen a few of the guys from this camp of thought. But they always have sand on the SW from the left bunker.

Umbrella Avoidance
 

I took these three photos on the Practice Tee at the PODS Championship in Palm Harbor, Florida, two weeks ago. They illustrate V.J. Singh's new 'avoidance behavior' setup.

I'll put up a post on this subject tomorrow or Tuesday. Meanswhile, consider them food for thought. Check the divot direction in Photo #2 and V.J.'s reaction to the results in #3.

Hint: He was hitting big cuts. Slices even.

:eyes:

if I get your name...
 

Thank you.

If I'm reading your name correctly, even cp'ers use straight lines to varying degrees (not circles). The basis of those lines is still the geometric plane, which makes the other acronym perfectly acceptable in my book.

3 in the morning Lynn- you forgot something. Besides sleep.

Technical Difficulties
 

Thanks, Mike. I couldn't get the photos to load earlier because of very low signal strength on my wireless network. All fixed now.

give a man a camera and he will tell you stories. Another great job reporting, Lynn. I love VJ's 90 dollar red plastic dowel.

next step
 

We met for the second time, today. And, although the results are a little exaggerated, I was happy to see that he could change Impact. These things are possible for him in Basic or Acquired Motions. But, Total Motion may take a little longer.

Next Up
 

Roll on the line...

A total of 15 minutes vs. 15 years of golf frustration.

Nice job Ted! You are way too kind.

By the way, shouldn't you be in the hospital with your newborn?

the time is near
 

She was showing signs of an early labor all the way back at the Falcon's Fire school. But, since she stopped working, the contractions stopped. The due date is April 28th. So, I'm answering every call from her, when I'm teaching.

Looking good. Great work.
Hope the wee one comes along soon, then you can start teaching both your kids the joys of hitting :D
Alex

His clubface obviously has not been fixed yet.

If someone told him to "swing left" before fixing anything else....well.......

[EDIT]

...well.......then that's just plain bad advice. (for THIS guy)

And I really can't see it coming directly, and as a direct recommendation for this specific player, from anyone with any kind of experience or even anyone with any common sense. You just don't tell a slicer that he needs to swing left. That is what he's doing too much of already, and this advice does not come anywhere NEAR to addressing HIS first wobbly point. (i.e. the root cause of his problems)

The man has no problem swinging left I'll tell you that.........his clubface is WIDE OPEN. (ROOT CAUSE) And he also almost certainly has a reverse pivot too.

That is the major problem with learning from the forums, or golf mags, or videos...it might be a great idea, but not for YOU at this time. Nicely pointed out birdie.

oh the birds of happiness are poopin' in the orange juice.

Effecting the On Plane Clubhead Orbit
 

During the Golf Stroke, the Clubhead orbits in an approximate circle. Assuming a Flat Left Wrist, the Down Plane orbit reaches its lowest point opposite the Left Shoulder.

Prior to reaching that Low Point, the Clubhead moves Down and Out (to the right). After the Low Point, the Clubhead moves Up and In (to the left). It is, after all, moving in a circle on an Inclined Plane.

Try it for yourself on a Horizontal Plane and see how really simple this 'pointing at a baseline' stuff really is. Through Impact, the Orbiting Clubhead only points at the Straight Line Baseline of its horizontal Plane of Motion. It therefore approaches Low Point from neither above nor below the Low Point Plane Line.

Through Impact, the Golfer best effects that On Plane Motion by Tracing the Baseline with the Right Forearm and #3 Pressure Point, not by "swinging left" with an Off Plane Right Shoulder and 'high' Right Forearm.

Even Hardy was asked why TOUR players 'X' and 'Y' made such obvious Off Plane motions during their Practice Strokes. Said he (paraphrased) in his newest book:

"They are exaggerating."

Ha.....I don't get it but it sounds funny anyway.

That is a good post....I have no problem with any of that Lynn.

...

BTW I just realized y'all may (also?) have been talking about Hardy, etc.....with "swinging left." Maybe an oversight on my part.

Anyway when certain people ("spaghetti eatin"...lol- if you catch my drift) say "swing left" though....

....what they mean by that is exactly as you say it Lynn:

After moving down and out until reaching Low Point the clubhead begins to move IN.

In other words- Trace a straight Plane Line!!

I mean......we all know how this works.......so I dunno if there is some kind of confusion as to what people teach.....or maybe confusion on my part with regards to exactly WHO is teaching whatever y'all think they are teaching.

Anyway tho....

The other thing that remains in all this I guess is: What about "swinging RIGHT?"

Well that of course is fine too. (if not exaggerated) Cause if you go back up to your summarizing and informative post above- the clubhead does move "to the right" (i.e. towards the Plane Line) until Low Point is reached.

"Swing left"........"Swing right".....

Either one too exaggerated is not so good.....and certain players need more of either one depending on the player....and I'm sure certain players may even need to FEEL a LOT more of one or the other. (i.e. for a fix in the present moment- start at one end of the spectrum....aim to exaggerate towards the other end....and wind up right in the middle)

So ya.....you do both.....

Or in other words--once again--Trace a straight Plane Line.

Paul,

Lynn is spot on and you as well! When I mentioned more "left", that's exactly it, continue to trace the plane line! denotation versus connotation thing and maybe I need to clean it up for more precision!

After all, what would a leftie do?

swinging left
 

I saw an interesting thread on the GEA, yesterday. The name of the thread was "swing left to swing right". I copied the three attachments that started the thread. It was a copy of an article from a popular publication and from a top 100 instructor. It was written in 1989, but it's still popular advice.

I heard that one..

Is it the one that say Swing right to go left and swing left to go right?

What about someone like Kenny Perry who is a long hitter, yet his hips and shoulders are approximately square (parallel to the target-line) at impact? He has great compression, so is he a counterexample?


P.S. the photo I was looking at was from around 2000.

Matt

Kenny Perry
 

He turned to complete his backswing so he must return (turn) to impact position. Once the ball leaves the clubface the golf swing is over.

My thought is Kenny Perry turns less once he arrives at impact than many others. I am not concerning myself with the amount he rotates his body after impact, I agree it is irrelevant in regards to the question at hand.