Lag transportation
 

Ben Doyle talks about the essential transportation for a swingers lag being the pivot. Doesn't a hitter also need transportation for his lag? Could that be a combination of the downswing waggle's initial hip movement, combined with the initial shoulder drive down the plain, aka 4 barreled hitting?

Yes.. hitter also need pivot to transport.

The difference between 4 and 3 barrel is 4 barrel will also use No.4 pressure point/accumulator.. while 3 barrel just use 1 23 accumulator .. but the pivot merely support the transport of the arms.

I would like to think that Lag is felt by pressure point.

Store this one and Deliver it.
 

Hitting or Swinging there is Right Shoulder Turn Thrust and Pivot Lag, but it only provides the initial Acceleration to Release Point. Then the Power Package is Released with Drive Out (Active Right Elbow) or Throw Out (Passive Right Elbow) to Release Accumulators #2 and #3 Simultaneously (Hitting) or Sequenced (Swinging).

It becomes a Four Barrel if the Four Accumulator is an Action (does ANY work) as opposed to strictly a Motion (no work).

Clarification
 

Alot of issues to cover here- to touch on a couple.
First:
If the above is correct or not- One must understand that you have described mechanical features of the movement - that shouldn't be used as procedural ques for performing the movement.

Second:
7-12 Pivot- 2nd Paragraph:
For the Hitter Mr. Kelley starts with:
"It is the massive vehicle which transports the Power Package Assembly to the launching pad and back-up support for the Hitter's driving Right Arm (6-B-1)."
Then he continues on in regards to the Swinger:
"It is the massive rotor, supplying Angular Momentum for the Throw Out power transfer to the Swinger's Left Arm (6-B-3).

The final sentence of that paragraph in the 7th edition applys to both Hitter's and Swinger's:
"The Pivot along with the Arms and Hands, supply the Basic Hinging which The Flat Vertical Left Wrist individualizes into the Three Hinge Motions of the Clubface."

I don't think that you will find Mr. Kelley using the concept of the "Pivot transporting lag".

Finally- when reading section 7-12 paragraph #2- It is important to:

First, understand that he is referring to the more common references of a 3-barrel stroke- accumulators 1,2,3 for the Hitter and accumulators 2,3,4 for the Swinger. (The paragraph wouldn't make sense in relation to a 4 barrel stroke)

Second, since the Golfing Machine was intended to categorize any and all strokes- you need to understand that he is referring here to a common full shot- alot of the above doesn't necessarily have to be so- for zero pivot strokes, different patterns, etc.

To repeat:
For the Hitter - the Pivot would transport the "Power Package Assembly" Read his words carefully- "the vehicle" transports (Hitters).

The Swinger would not JUST transport- The Swinger would have an initial acceleration that would create pressure on pressure point number 4. It's the massive rotor transferring momentum in the left arm.

Now I'm headed back to Bucket's Trunk where I belong. Take a shower man- I can smell you from here!

concepts
 

Sounded good to me Drewit. As I read it more closely though- you might consider this clarification.
Right Shoulder Thrust would be creating a #4 pressure point pressure- you'd be using #4 accumulator- that was a little unclear in your post - Anotherwords you might not have right shoulder thrust.

Usually, you'll see Mr. Kelley use "initial acceleration" in the reference to Swingers and not Hitters. Accumulators #2 & #3 for the Swinger may or may not start to release at the point the initial acceleration (assuming there was some) stopped. Their release could take place later.

You'll notice the last sentence kind of intertwined acceleration types (Hitting and Swinging) with release point and release types. So the power package release point of #2 & #3 accumulators is a separate issue from when the initial acceleration ends- if any - of the pivot. The power package is released via triggers not acceleration types, although certainly in the context of "powered by" - the sentence has merit.

Not meant to "rip ya" but every once in awhile I think that there are a few people that are interested in the "clarifications". However, it's been a long time since providing details/clarification was the intent behind my posts and due to time constraints, etc. - it's not really my interest to post in that light anymore- but every once in awhile the old Mike O. needs to re-surface. If I got something wrong or mis-interpeted something - feel free to ignore it- I just hope that someone else might understand something where they might have otherwise mis-interpreted it.

Good luck with the teaching and the game.

This is great stuff- Mike.
The image of the pivot transporting the Power Package needs to be ingrained onto the psyche of every TGMer. The pivot is not a twist or a spin but a hip motion that sets up either a punch for a Hitter’s Power Package or a slingshot for the Swinger’s Power Package.

btw-This is why you can not be effective in trying to pull and push.

Pivot
 

In the context of my post and the 2nd paragraph in 7-12-

"The image of the pivot transporting the Power Package needs to be ingrained into the psyche of every" - 3 barrel Hitter. At least that is how I would write what you wrote.

The pivot isn't a hip motion. Nor is it a hip motion that sets up ......
The pivot is the combined motion or lack thereof - of the feet, knees, hip, shoulder motions. See Homer Kelley's definition(s).

It is the acceleration method (Hitting or Swinging) and it's particular loading characteristics that "tends" to set up a punch elbow position for the Hitter's Power Package and a pitch elbow postion for the Swinger's Power Package. Although- elbow positions are really just optional choices (variations) depending on one's inherent pattern- nothing mandatory there. To infer that the Hitter always would have a punch elbow position or the Swinger always would have a pitch elbow position- really misses what the Golfing Machine book is all about.

Again, most of this is just the mechanical features of what is happening and not ideas that you would want to focus on while making the movement. Except - when you are improving your movement, this wealth of mechanical information can help you understand the nature of your particular problem and become an important problem solving tool chest to unravel your particular movement puzzle.

Anyway Mike- Just trying to keep you on "my" train of thinking. Not saying that it's the right train to be on.

Let the Pivot do its job- Let the pivot move the Hands, Let the pivot move the Power Package. The Hands trained the pivot well to enjoy the free ride.
I still like the imagine of the whole Power Package going "bye-bye" as a passenger on the pivot train.

Of course the pivot is more than the motion of the Hips, but it is the Hips that Hula Hula with the shoulders to set up the delivery of the Hands.
When I said punch (small p), I was refering to the feel of the attack the right arm in a Hit Stroke, not the Elbow Position. A Hitter sets up like a boxer and drives a punch through the ball.
I have enjoyed the scope of your Golfing Machine knowledge for many years, especially when I was the top dumb hammer in a box of dumb hammers. Today I can make a few Machine adjustments and that my friend is a great feeling.

6b

Posting
 

See my comments above in bold. I don't post much because it's not worth the effort and I don't have the time to post the full implication, elaboration and validation of the related issues involved- to fully support the concept. A forum really isn't the best place to do that. In summary, if you want the difference between a hand controlled pivot and pivot controlled hands- just read above.

The man behind the Mike!
 

No arguement here, Mike. I try to keep my posts brief and to the point. If they are unclear, I am always willing to elborate.

It is a very very somber and unfortunate day . . . I must pay you a sincere compliment (wish it could be backhanded). But this is damn good for a normal human being type person . . . much less a genetically challenged sheep stalker. One of the most concise and illuminating descriptions of how the hands dictate the pivot that I have read. Nice job Stinky.

. . . now back to the regularly scheduled programming . . .

?
 

Nice try - You just want to see the psychotic idiot ramble on more! Take a shower!

P.S. With you and I on this forum it really is a slap in the face that Bagger or BamBam don't have a "psychotic idiot" emoticon available:eyes: . Another sign that they don't want us here- too bad we can't take a hint.:happy3:

Gotcha!
 

I like the note and precision regarding the "small p" - Gotcha!

You're right I didn't catch that- but I got it now. I don't think we need to discuss the small p thing anymore but if we do I'm sure Bucket could shed more light on this:salut:

Mechanical descriptions versus procedural ques
 

It's just important to understand that alot of the Golfing Machine is mechanical descriptions of what is happening or should be happening. That may be great information if the machine breaks down and you need to fix it- but it's not helpful in the operation of the machine. Just like the mechanical features/knowledge of how to build and/or repair a car and how an engine operates- are much different than the operational knowledge to drive the car.

Ideally, what needs to be expressed but is rarely expressed, is the context of the statement. Is it a mechanical feature or an operational feature. And then further - how does that mechanical feature relate to the operational feature or vica versa.

For example, using Golfing Machine terms- "your flying wedges lost their structure on the downswing" i.e. say the left wrist bent before impact -
That is the mechanical feature.

You need to maintain the flying wedges your coach tells you-
That is a mechanical feature.

You then decide to try "hold" the thing in place on the downswing -
That is an operational feature.

Maybe you try to "feel" them stay in place on the downswing-
That is an operational feature.

Unfortunately, both of your "changes" were an effort to "copycat" the mechanical feature. When let's say in your particular situation the best possible correction might be to feel the same amount of lag pressure that you loaded at the top- maintained via acceleration - beyond impact. That would be your operational feature that corrects the mechanical feature. Or could be any one of unlimited other possible operational features that produces the correct mechanical feature. You might have throwaway and find that if you smell fried chicken on the downswing that you don't have throwaway- hence the operational feature would be to have a barbecue in your golf cart- I'm not naming names here.:rolleyes:

Are you wearing the big girl panties again Mike??? We have TALKED about what this does to you . . . please.

I trained my pivot with my hands. My pivot works for them. In no way does my body transport the hands on an unfamiliar pathway.

I can't see how I can be so wrong. If I am than I will not take up much of anyone's time and misguide them. It's best to just return to the pleasure of reading posts and learning what I can.

Medication
 

Mike,
First you need to understand that I am not on my medication- as Bucket would point out. Second, It's sometimes difficult to put yourself in the context of the writer- so I may have completly mis-interpreted the context of your post. Finally, you gotta take all this with a grain of salt if that's the right saying (I'm great at messing those things up)- everyone's got their own opinion or perspective- not really life or death here.

That said, My point was if a beginning student read post#9- I would think that on the procedural/operational/ "what am I trying to do here" level - they would focus on the pivot if they read your post and the hands if they read my post.

That intention to move your hands and the club is the christmas tree that everything else hangs on. It is the canvass that the artist uses to paint the painting. It is the basic. Everything else is just details.

If that still is confusing then specifically it's the word "let" as in "Let the pivot move the hands" - that to "ME" and possibly "ME" only- implies that you place your attention/intention on the pivot. Now, since this thread started with a reference to Ben Doyle- then I would add from my perspective that his approach and communication of the stroke- with the focus on the pivot- is the same that I am implying was in your post. Just in case you are or have learned from him. That's just not my approach.

To close in regards to your post here.
6BMIKE: "In no way does my body transport the hands on an unfamiliar pathway." From my perspective it's not only the path that they take but the method that creates that path. You could pick up a ball off the ground or hit a baseball with the hands traveling on a nice plane but you could have created that motion in an un-coordinated method. In other words, you could have picked the ball off the ground by focusing on and having your intention to create a certain amount of knee flex and waist bend.

6BMIKE: "I can't see how I can be so wrong. If I am than I will not take up much of anyone's time and misguide them. It's best to just return to the pleasure of reading posts and learning what I can."

I'd say the rule of the road would be - if you have the interest - then certainly share your knowledge. Now, If you (Not Mike O.) decide that some aspect of your knowledge needs to be upgraded, changed, etc. then you make that change and move on- continuing to share what you know and look to listen and improve. So as long as a person's intention is not to misguide then share, share, share. There is always going to be disagreements, sometimes those disagreements don't get settled because one or both sides can't communicate or understand the issues involved enough to arrive at a common understanding.

I'm always available off-line if you want to get a complete elaboration of the entire context of this topic matter.

Otherwise, do what Bucket does and run me over- then back the truck up and run me over again for good measure- and then when you have confirmed death- go out and shoot a smooth 67.

The Purpose-Driven Pivot
 

Intention.

I like that word.

Are you saying that the intention to move the Hands causes the Pivot to move first? And to thus initiate its Power Package Transportation and alignment-support assignments?

Mr. Mike.O. I am a fan of your posts. and i also want to join you fan club.

The Logic is there, but personally I would like to add what I had went through. Maybe for the benefit of people starting out or studying the book.


Justin did explain the exact logic to me. There are few fundamental hurdle.

No.1 like riding a bike, writing something, typing.. those are done subconsciously, but in order to become conscious , you have to have the correct "way" and trust them. Many abandon the "correct" way before trusting it and becoming subconscious. Thus We need incubator, coconut, and a good coach/mentor, or just stubbornly trust it . without it we lose faith and abandon the incubator.

No.2 The body , bending still need to be aligned a certain way in order to achieve a certain alignment. or follow a certain Model in TGM. Are your arm below the shoulder socket, too close to body? is your spine straight or bend down. etc.. A little of those would change Plane characteristics and loading behavior, angle of attack, visual equivalent. Not to mention we feel different Day to day .

No3 Experience and applications, There are tons of way to skin a cat. If your grip isn't correct for instance, or the flying wedge isn't correct for instance, We are not going to get the correct pressure points. Correct sequencing, different plane lines have slightly different sequence feel.

No.4 Overcoming perceptions.. 2j1,2,3, 3f5,6,7

Thats my difficulties , for someone who didn't understand much to begin with..

all pivot moves for all long shots. The difference is very little when i started to differentiate and to learn but gets more as my body understood more things. And it becomes clearer to me, that anything that involves accumulator 4 , the Pivot alignments and movement become even more important. Personally I believe, hand or pivot controlled? i believe in both. as we need zone 1 2 3 to work hand in hand.. proper alignment will yield the most consistent tendencies.

Cheers.

Movment Theory
 

To not get ahead of myself and answer your basic question in regards to "what I am saying" in the section that you quoted

I'm saying that the starting point for my movement theory - is that all conscious movement is goal oriented. Not only in the golf movement but any movement.

The nature and goal of that movement determines what part of the body one would try to move. If the basic goal is to hit the ball with a club and the club is attached to your foot- then to perform that movement "correctly" on the widest level- your intention would be to move your foot - with it's corresponding awareness of the club - to hit the ball. If the club is attached to your head- then your intention would be to move your head and the corresponding awareness of the club - to hit the ball. Since, most of us grab the club with both hands - then moving the hands and the corresponding awareness of the club is the proper intention of the movement.

That's what I would consider the first principle. It's the outer most layer of the onion. There are many, many layers of knowledge, understanding, perspective, below it but none of it should contradict or nullify that fact.

To touch on your question "was I saying the intention of moving the hands causes the pivot to move first" and at the same time to highlight one of the issues that is important - the mechanical (what's happening) versus the intention (what you are trying to do).

In golf or any "back and through" athletic movement - On the basic level I would say that your intention would be to "take it back there and then bring it down here". However, in these ballistic movements the intention won't match the actual. Your intent to bring it back down- is just the first stage of slowing down the backswing. On the intention side- YOU ARE starting the downswing. On the mechanical side the arm and the club and shoulders etc. are still swinging back. In order for the hand to slow down, the arm must stop moving across the chest, in order for that to stop moving the muscles of the next joint must stop or brake the motion of the arms, etc. etc. down to the feet. So depending on numerous other factors- visually - you may or may not see the pivot components move or appear to move in the other direction before or as the hands begin to move in that direction.

Another one joins the club.
 

First, Welcome to the club- when we reach sufficient numbers I will be calling - you'll be asked to work in secrecy - You'll need to move quickly and efficiently - Your destination with many others will be in the state of North Carolina, in a particular neighborhood, surrounding a particular house, .... I've already said too much - wait by the phone for the call.

Overall - you bring up a very valid and undeniable fact- that it takes years of experimentation, learning, adjustments:

"The body , bending still need to be aligned a certain way in order to achieve a certain alignment. or follow a certain Model in TGM. Are your arm below the shoulder socket, too close to body? is your spine straight or bend down. etc.. A little of those would change Plane characteristics and loading behavior, angle of attack, visual equivalent. Not to mention we feel different Day to day ."

So it's a slow process and painted with great detail. So in a simple example and a poor one - Let's say that the letter A represents a Hand Controlled Pivot- you're really not going to fully understand A until you grasp B-Z, and the sounds they make, and the words that they compose, etc. etc. But all along the way - if you understand that A is a letter and that the fact that B is a letter doesn't nullify A from being a letter - then you eventually can get to where you want to be (no pun intended!)

Aye President,, ready when you are ! I am preparing all the torture tools. I am happy to report my latest addition, a hydraulic golf ball crusher. :naughty:
Amen!

----- And --------

The beauty of TGM, in my opinion is the involvement of the translation of Mechanic to feel.

For example, Our INTENTION is to direct the pressure point 3 Down the plane. whist maintaining it.

So how our elbow is placed, how the grip is taken , How our body support the move, our tempo , change in direction all have to move in the certain way so that this "amount" pressure point is directed down the plane in a certain direction.. WITHOUT LOOKING, plainly with that intention and FEEL alone , the rest automatically happens resulting in way superior execution and compression. example how it works, Flatter plane will have a pressure more below the shaft, steeper plane more above the shaft.. The feel ( and also visual equivalent also reproduces mechanic )thus REPRODUCE MECHANIC. and ready to be adjusted with different shots at hand . ..That one of the many true magic of TGM. besides flying wedge, extensor action etc....

However, what is often neglected in studying TGM is that , The alignment of setup( Pivot controlled, and non pivot controlled), Path of club will yield different ball flight tendencies. For example.. If we tilt more at address, there is tendency of Push or under plane...But again, that knowledge is highly dependent on the experience of the applicator , in the facet of application, model knowledge, bio mechanics. There are many ways to shape a shot, some simpler and some more difficult.

Sorry for this Overly passionate need to discuss this thought.... I felt compelled to discuss my love for TGM.

back to earth
 

There is NO way that my pivot controls my hands. My hands built, train and designed the way it moves- time in and time out. My hands do not need to micro manage every pivot component. 9-1: "All motion is in a pre-selected sequence and spacing pf whatever Components are being employed. Emphatically, Hands are not educated until they control the pivot."

Since my hands trained the pivot to delievery the Power package per 7-12- a transport vehicle- it controls the vehicle. No way do I feel that my hands are victims of physics over-riding the alignments. My Hands monitor delivery lines and delivery paths. They are not renegades changing their educated alignments. They have a pivot they can trust.

My Hula Hula opens a lane for my hands. My hnads don't need to send a memo or knock on the door each time.

This is how I see it. I have always learned from your posts, MikeO. I can't say the same about others learning from mine. I don't want to be the guy that posts less than accurate information. I will be more careful.

Great post Mike! . . . . SOMEBODY PLEASE DIAL 911!!!!! MIKE OBERDINK IS A DANGER TO HIMSELF!!!!

Mikey calm down man . . . go to the draw with the Elmo sticker on it. Eat 5 no 15 of the pretty pills. Take off the girls undies and lay down. The truck with the pretty lights and the nice men will be there to take you to the "vacation" spot. For now deeeeeeep slow breaths.

Food for thought
 

See my comments above.

Glad to hear it
 

Glad to hear that you haven't entered the dark side Mike. Keep posting - the forum has enough "observers"- unfortunately there is no room on that team for you at this time. I'll have BamBam PM you when there is an opening.

Thanks all for some great answers.

In retrospect, it appears to me that a case can be made that the correct answer to the specific question asked might very well be "no". The delivery of the hitter's power package to within punching distance of the ball, is supported by a forward move in the lower body. When the hitter applies his final thrust through the ball properly, he will automatically be far enough forward in his stance, so that there is no specific need for additional transportation for a hitter.

Do you guys agree?

lag transportation
 

Actually after much more time spent practicing loading and sustaining my lag, I reject my prior post as being incorrect. I have now returned to my initial statement that began this thread with one change. I initially said "downswing waggle", and what I meant was "startdown waggle". Based on my current practice, it seems to me that the startdown waggle represents critical transportation aiding the delivery of a hitter's lag to lowpoint.

If someone disagrees with that statement, I hope they will share their comments?

So you finally listened to those Hooked On Phonics tapes you boosted from the library? Is y a vowel or a continent? A E I O U and sometimes Mike wears women's underwear.

I think you are on it and for both Hitters and Swingers. If you don't start down DOWN PLANE you have thrown the club out of its proper orbit with your intended plane line and thus must make some compensatory move to get it back on plane or pay the price.

I think its HUGE and maybe even more so for Swingers.

"If the power you lag into impact is your precious cargo"
 

"If the power you lag into impact is your precious cargo, the pivot is the transportation vehicle that carries the goods for you throught the impact zone."

That's one terrific sentance which conveys alot of information. When I bought into Mike O's hand's driven, and therefore no pivot idea, I was driving my hands forward shortly after the initial "startdown" waggle section, because they were still way to far back. It seemed to work okay, but it didn't feel quite right.

Now I finally think I understand Ted Fort's slow "startdown waggle". It would seem that one reason for "slow" is to delay the right arm thrust until the pivot has brought the right arm farther forward. Btw, that sentance is part of the Bullet Points on page 121 of Bobby Clampett's wonderful " The Impact Zone" book. It is my second favorite source for learning about golf. In particular, its 2 chapters on Loading and lagging had been very helpful, and I am doing my best to further improve on that aspect of my swing. Thanks Bucket!

"If the power you lag into impact is your precious cargo, the pivot is
 

As Ted Fort suggested, I slowed down my startdown waggle a bit further and waited "until I was close enough to throw a punch". But I couldn't have figured out the right answer, until I was able to finally trust that that my "startdown waggle" combined with my "4 barreled hitting thrust" would provide a lag transportation system sufficient to "carry the goods for me through the impact zone".

By working harder on both loading the lag on the backswing, and also as my hands initially start down, in conjunction with the "startdown waggle", I have been able to load much better than before. The more important improvement was learning how to fine tune my lag delivery system. When I assumed that the hands provided the transportation for lag, my stroke was okay, but I couldn't sense a strong lag contribution. Now that I trust the startdown waggle and 4 barrel hitting thrust to transport the lag forward, it is clear that the amount of precious lag cargo is greatly increased.

The process of golfers at this forum helping other golfers better understand howthe golfing machine works, is positively wonderful. I simply would never have been able to effect the continuous progress I am making this year, without the help of many others, plus this wonderful website. Thanks Yoda, Ted and crew!!!

You bet, I love it!

suggestion
 

I've had (sometimes still) the same issues.
My warm up session before a round always starts with basic motion, going on to aquired motion and longer and longer hits with my pitching wedge, concentrating on delivery line and lag pressure. This gives me a good feel for lag pressure and tempo.
I suggest you try the same.

Before I had a tendency to go to the end instead of top, and then throw the lag away too early.

By the way: this place has taken my golf to another galaxy - I love it tooo:sunny:

lag transportation
 

The foundation of my improving game is the 6,000 chips I hit from January to March. Without what I learned then, I don't think I would be able to continue to build on what previously was an inconsistent game. So yes, I start warming up similarly.

One of the things that I learned from the Bobby Clampett book, not from the Lynn Blake website was the importance of the three fingers on the left hand. I now find that concentrating on consistent pressure from those 3 fingers is really important because it has increased my ability to maintain a flat left wrist during my backswing.

Short story.
I joined a golf club this spring. The person that introduced me to the club was rewarded by the club with a number of free guest passes. He wanted to pass on some of the benefit to me and offered to buy me several free lessons with his favorite instructor. Infortunately he was rather bewildered when I declined his kind offer. I have a comprehensive program that works quite well and that I expect I can keep growing with. Why would I hire someone who doesn't know the golfing machine hitting system, to make suggestions about my game?



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