How terribly close is hitting and swinging?
 

Can someone please correct me if I am wrong about this.

Both left side only gets to PULL, which mean left shoulder still need to still Pull the arms from the top for hitters and to support the 4 1 2 3 release for hitters.

Both Right side only gets to PUSH. even for swingers.

Both require rhythm.. Hitting is not a independently powered right tricep . Very common misconception about hitting.

Both Hitting and swinging can use any hinge action
Both hitting and swinging can use sequential or Overlapping release. and different release points

Swinger use Throwaways.. Hitters use muscular force. And , both hitting or swinging tricep behaves the same , As Active or As passive ( I think the difference is in the participation of pivot, swinger use pivot , hitter, push/punch stroke use or don't use pivot power). Or some might call it extensor action , some might call it No.1 accumulator (but they have no difference in motion and feel, still doing the same job)!.. HOWEVER ... swinger tricep supports the Secondary( pull the shaft thus also makes the back swing longer) assembly while Hitter supports the Primary assembly ( pull left thumb). The HUGE difference of the required axe and rope motion is thus achieved with different no.3 pressure point and elbow position. 90% of the difference is done at setup.

SO... which is why Hitting and swinging execution and motion is very much the same, but with different result in feel , hinging and mechanics.

Ie. a 4 barrel HIT stroke still require a shoulder throw to load the No.4 accumulator.

AND they can Feel very much the same. but different Look and motion.

Any thoughts on this?

Go and have a think about what you ACTUALLY do during a tug-of-war contest.

Homer Kelley said that The Golfing Machine produces no un-golf like motions. Outside of the top position of a Hitter- the motion of both strokes are identical. The Action is different- very different.

Some of your analysis is a bit off the mark and some distinction missing, but you are right about the motion being identical.

Mike, appreciate your thought . Which do you think is Off mark?

Is what you meant the Axe, low speed thrust, overlapping release, release type, trigger delay, throws, Muscular , shorter and vice versa? The characteristics? And what I am trying to say ... regardless if its a HIT or a swing.. we can do both hinges , overlapping or sequential release,

Say Tom Watson is a swinger with highly overlapped release, Bobby Clamppett is a Angled hinge Swinger..Ted fort can do a Horizontal Hit stroke if he likes. Even Un-characteristic of a swing or hit can still be introduced to a stroke and still be called a swinging or hitting by Homer Kelly.

So what really differs a swinger and a hitter ? what are important changes? Thats what i am trying to sort out

So far my conclusion is, we only need to change 3 following things to differ a hit and swing;

1. the way the extensor action ( or acc 1) apply on primary/secondary lever assembly, making it "Active" and "Passive". but the right elbow keep pushing and keep the extensor action ON, at all time .
2. the way the PP#3 is placed( side or top aft), to be driven actively or passively.
3. the punch/pitch Elbow position ,

this 3 changes alone will change the CORE Mechanics/Action between a swing and a HIT in TGM terms, in any case with a pivot delivery stroke, without question?( including cause and effect of the characteristic of hitting and swinging which everyone is familiar with, like we do not need to think the back swing shorter or longer, muscular thrust or throwaway,active or passive tricep+ many other characteristics , it automatically applies),

However , the Execution/Motion is very much the same with just 3 changes... Hum... anybody understand what i am trying to express?

Thats what I am trying to ask...

Give me more clue . Master Comdpa.. not sure where your aiming at...

too long
 

First off. Extensor Action IS NOT Accumulator Number One. The First Power Accumulator DRIVES the Lever Assemblies. The straightening right arm drives #1 Pressure Point and #3 Pressure Point behind the shaft. Of the Four Thrusts- 6-C-0, the second type, 6-C-0-2, Extensor Action, is the only Non- Accelerating thrust. It is an in-line action. Extensor action pulls the left arm in a straight line but doesn’t push the left arm or lever assembly towards the ball. Extensor Action is present in both CF throw-Out Swing and Muscle Power Drive of the straightening Right arm. The Swinger’s Right arm is inert and the Hitter’s right arm is active muscle power. Extensor Action is the glue of the Flying Wedges- it welds the structure. It is not power. Accumulator One is POWER.
On the 45 point Mechanical Checklist For All Strokes, 12-3-0, Extensor Action is 20 per cent of the list. (see: Homer’s Greatest Hits Video clip)

Lynn explained this way: The accelerating Thrust of Accumulator 1 is “anything but a ‘gentle Stretching’ of the Left Arm. Instead, it is a decisive -- even rigid (7-1) -- Thrust! - that Uncocks both the Right Elbow and the Left Wrist.”

The number three Pressure Point is not “placed” differently. It is not relocated by the type of grip but by the Left Wrist Action on the take-away for the Swinger. A Hitter uses a Single, 10-18-C-2 which keeps the #3pp behind the shaft. A Swinger uses Standard, 10-18-A, that is Turned on Take-away and places the #3pp under the shaft at the End of the stroke. Only the Turned hand relocates the relationship of pp3 to the plane. (see- “PP3 Where are you?” Video clip)

Motion is Geometry (of the Circle). The Geometry of the Circle is always the same for Hit and Swinger, save perhaps for some uncompensated stroke. Action is force. The power that is very different in the two patterns. Swinger’s Throw –OUT (not “away”) and flirts with Throw-away since they strike the ball with a whirling clubhead they have no control over. A Hitter Drives or Pushes the ENTIRE club - shaft and Clubhead. They have total control of the clubhead. And the ball, which makes Hitting a great scoring stroke. This makes #1pp active and a Hitter's best friend.

Of the 24 components 9 are different. 10-, 3, 4, 10, 11, 18, 19 ,20 ,21, and 22. Sometimes a Hitter likes to start at address with a Bent Right and a Flat Left Wrist(s).
Also see 6-H-0-E and F.


Swinger’s don’t push anything- It is All throw-OUT. Hitter’s are like Boxers- they Drive and Push. The Right Elbow can Delay release just as the Swinger’s snap release Left wrist Throw Delays release.

A Hitter doesn’t Pull his arm/hands back to the Plane since Top is right shoulder high but Pulls his Pivot taut. Results in the same position - same pivot lag loaded.
A Swingers Pivot CORRECTLY “gets out of the way” for the Hands. The Right Shoulder (pivot) is a rotor. A Hitter’s Pivot also “gets out of the way” but also allows the right shoulder to support the driving right arm. The Right Shoulder (pivot) is the "equal and opposite reaction” platform to support the drive down of the right arm to the ball. It is still a turning body motion- the action is different and undetectable by the viewer.

You can use any Hinge Angle for any stroke but not without a cost or difficulty. Dual HH is perfect for a CF throw-out and the Accumulator #1 Drive Down is works naturally with Angled Hinge Action Angle of Approach attack on the ball. Hinge Action is rhythm, so rhythm is of course used in both patterns. Each are listed as imperative in 6-H-0-E-1 and 6-H-0-F-1.

And there are Plane Lines, Stance Lines and Delivery Paths and Lines that work better for one over the other. "Drive to Right Field" is a common Hitter's Swing thought.

Adjutsmenst to ball position, Clubface at address

What looks similair, works differently.

_____________________________

Disclaimer: I am only talking about the two basic stroke patterns in the 6th Edition- The Swing Stroke Pattern- Drag Loaded- and the Hit Stroke Pattern- Drive Loaded.
If I am wrong with what I posted or still have some fog lingering on my thoughts as I wrote them that makes it less than satisfactory please discuss this with me. Otherwise, I do not post about, endorse, advocate, or use any Right Arm Swing or whichever variation of a right side CF throw or push by any practitioner or practitioners, so question, concerns or rebut should begin another thread in good spirit. IMHO.

Those were two great posts-for different reasons but still great!:salut:

Push or Pull - Whos the Boss?
 

Nuke,

They are "very" terribly close. So much so that the majority of golfers do both. There are also folks who think they are hitting but are swinging, and folks that think they are swinging but really hitting.

A pure swing or hit takes knowledge, practice, and the keen eyes of a great instructor. There are very few pure examples IMHO.

We tend to think in terms of right arm effort or lack thereof, but it's the pivot and right shoulder motion that sets up the differentiation along with many other factors. The right arm has to push against something stable for a pure hit. The right shoulder is the stable brace for that action. A swingers pivot allows the right shoulder to freely spin.

Pure hitters use a different set of variables for address, takeaway, backstroke, loading, downstroke, release, impact and follow-through and finish.

To make an effective hitting stroke, it helps to know how to optimize each section of the stroke for the hit. Using the standard swingers motion for every section of the "hit" except for the downstroke and release just doesn't cut it for a true hit. In fact, that would be much more of a swing because your massive rotor has set up the throw out. Once that is set up, you may not be able to override CF, not that you would even want to. :)

Even though they look the same and can be deceptively similar, the differentiators are found in each section of the motion. Hitters set up to hit. Swingers set up to swing.

Blenders try to mix; one part address swing, two parts backstroke hit, a dash of swing loading, 2 parts downstroke swing, a 12 piece bucket of release hit, a dash of impact hit, two teaspoons of follow-through swing, and a cup of finish hit just to look good.

Blend vigorously and find your ball in the morning.

I thought the post was good, but...
 

Great post. But, the disclaimer is pure brilliance (IMHO).

Mike...

This is what I am trying to explain in a different way. We are talking the same thing, but a different "angle of approach". Stick with me for a moment, try to assimilate what I am trying to say ... Not sure I am a good writer ...

Does our tricep know its accumulator 1 or extensor action? The job is only to contract and straighten.

Pointing to chapter on Extensor Action / 7-3 :read: .. and My point is ...

By just pulling the shaft ( yes its still thumb since the grip is connected), the secondary assembly, the behavior of the swinger tricep power becomes Passive . there is NO way the tricep becomes active if its pulled that way .. ( the forearm in this case supports the Secondary assembly ) ( not to mention the wrist becomes "active") , the swing becomes Longer as well since the arm triangle is not 'rigid'

By Pulling the thumb, the primary assembly , the behavior of the Hitter tricep power becomes Active and Accumulator 1 comes to play. The 'Triangle' of both arm , the primary assembly becomes rigid . thus becomes POWER. The swing is short because of that bio mechanical difference.

IN both case , the tricep straightens. It doesn't know why she straighten for ... Accumulator 1 or Extensor action ,, it just straighten.

IN any case .. Rhythm have to be maintained , and the tricep have to keep on straigthening. THUS !... the reason why its isn't that different.

And because the way the left arm is pulled ... the Action /mechanics thus become different . Automatically. Thats why I think to myself,, wow isn't that beautiful ? .... CAUSE ... and Effect

No.3 pressure point is slightly counter - clockwise .. top aft for swinger ( with a ? shape trigger finger) and aft for hitters...

Reason is , the way the elbow is positioned, the grip have to be slightly different. but presumably BOTH strong single .

Since the club is "PULLED" in swinging by pitch elbow... the location of the PP 3 have to behind the club going downplane in the downswing , so the location is 1/4 turn different than hitting( its in the book) ... it becomes more compatible in sequential release.. besides that becomes a wrist throw ... The pitch elbow becomes the secondary assembly support from the right forearm...

And because of these setup and methods... the results become different ..

SO everything actually " linked " together...How beautiful is the brain of Homer Kelly?

And my point is , the 24 components of the swinging and hitting model and seem like so many difference, with a simple change of 3 things ( not simply component) it changes the rest of the component and characteristics .. automatically between a , a DRAG and a DRIVE Pattern in the book.. I AM NOT TALKING OUTSIDE OF THE BOOK. AND I AM TALKING BASIC PATTERN AS WELL

Length of swing = Checked
Rope or Axe = checked
Active or passive tricep = checked
Accumulator 1 or Extensor action = checked
Overlap or sequential release = checked.
Muscle or CF throwaway = checked
Drag or Drive load = checked

Wroooong ? still?:dontknow: :dontknow:


Maybe i shouldn't have mentioned tom watson and bobby etc... It steers people off point.

Nobody got my point ? .... :crybaby: :crybaby:

Sorry I write Ugly...

One thing for sure . . . given the same clubhead speed . . . the ball don't know or care whether you hit or swing.

Differences
 

I don't know about your tricep, but mine knows the difference between the constant 5lb pull of extensor action throughout the swing stroke vs. trying to rip my left thumb off my hand with a 75lb push.

Ted uses double that such that his left arm is temporarily dislocated from the shoulder.

Be careful shaking his hand.:)

bucket... I know that ... but thats besides the point . Furthermore... it will yield different "tendencies"


Bagger, My point is .... you can apply Same amount of extensor action or accumulator 1 75 lbs ,, or 100 lbs on both... but the difference is whether it supports the primary or secondary assembly ...


Out of the sudden , I realised nobody understand what i am writing >..<.. Should have paid more attention in my English Classes.. But the teacher is old and mean you can't blame a small kid for not trying his best.

But Extensor Action doesn't hit the ball- Accumulator #1 does. Extensor Action has NO power to the ball. It welds the two opposing planes of the Flying Wedges. That is important enough. To say that Extensor Action and Accumulator #1 is the same thing - is just plain wrong.

Ted, you are the Hit King. Nobody knows it better than you. :)

ARRRGGGH Mike...

ITS different .. but thats beside the point

It becomes different because on how it Assembles.. NOT by pure intent ...

Ie.. YOU CANNOT say you want the Tricep become a active or Passive, HIT or Swing , Accumulator 1 or Extensor action , with the same elbow position, with the same way the tricep "pulls the thumb" . by just wanting and thinking. ,,,,,, We need to change something . get what i am trying to express?

Extensor Action does not straighten and pushes the left arm to the ball. It tries to straighten in a straight line along the shaft- a totally different direction. The inline force is what glues the wedges.

At address #3pp is always behind the shaft regardless of finger shape. It is the turn of the Hand of Standard Left Wrist Action to the End that changes the alignments but nopt the actual location of the finger contact on the shaft. There is no elbow position in Alignment golf. check the video and let Lynn explain it to you.

I think I do. You're asking, "If extensor action and the hitter's drive-out both involve triceps activation, and extensor action is active from startup to both arms straight, what differentiates the triceps activity of extensor action from the triceps activity of the hitter's drive out, considering that the triceps only extends the arm at the elbow?" Am I on the right track?

Maybe the difference between extensor action and the hitters thrust is felt at an anatomical level. In other words, the triceps muscles are extending in both cases. But maybe other muscles (pecs, anterior delts) come into play during the hitter's drive-out, while they don't necessarily do so in extensor action??

ok... from extensor action .. i highlight 2 sentence in 6.B.1.D



you can't really pull Both


ALSO

10.18.A

I highlight

Yub, for your first paragraph... as stated in 6B1D...


------------------------------------------------


Not really... My point is how the Tricep power is assembled will differentiate between the tricep being a acc 1 or extensor action or both. pls refer the TGM quote of 6b1D

A "feel" of a turn, but nothing turns out of relationship on the shaft. Lynn explains and shows you on the vid. Watch viewing.

either pp pulls the shaft inline as it flattens the left wrist. It doesn't matter which pp you zone in on as long as the thrust is inline with the shaft.

The left arm is like a dog leash and the right arm is the dog running away only to be prevented my the left arm leash.

The right arm can apply an inline thrust- Extensor Action and a driving right arm moving the Lever assembly at the same time. Two different thrusts as spelled out by Homer Kelley.

Digging
 

Like most things TGM, it's becoming more complicated than it really is. But in order to understand and for the egg to hatch, you've got to dig.

And digging you are Nuke. I love it!

Consider this, extensor action for swinging or hitting is a constant inline pressure as 6B said, of the clubshaft.

It's not much pressure, just a few pounds. As Ben Doyle would say, you are stretching your sweater taut.

It stays that way throughout the swing.

With hitting, it starts that way and stays that way even at the top of the backstroke and during startdown.

But during release, the hitter accelerates the primary lever assembly - clubshaft and left arm with a strong thrust of the right tricep. Zero to 60 in .02 seconds. A right arm crossline punch through impact. Pure thrust.

I understand your point. Mike.

Though Mike...

The trigger finger of a swinger is more of a " ? ' Hook shape.. while a hitter more flat , Different Feel and slight different look. BUT same relationship. Isn't it?

----

Mr Bagger ... Thanks..

I really just hoping someone can actually see my point and say if its right or wrong.

And there you said it... ACCELERATES THE PRIMARY ASSEMBLY ...=== HITTER.. So the Accumulator 1 and Extensor action have to support the primary assembly ! To see my point.. Throw away that club .. and apply accumulator 1 /extensor action on your left arm by pulling the left thumb. HIT IT ...

Swinging ... Provide Extensor Action to the Secondary assembly ... Whatever you do with this one... It cannot become a Accumulator 1 power. To see my point.. use a separated grip and apply extensor action via PP3 or right hand and swing ..No way your right elbow can become accumulator 1 ? It becomes POINTLESS anyway. right?

Hehe,, I think this is my best explanation yet ...

Do you have time to give me english lesson Bagger? You write so much better. than me

I don't think one stroke type dominates a certain finger shape. The only important part of pp#3- The King of All Pressure Points!" I like to say, is that it located on back of the shaft (as are PP1 and PP2) somewhere on that lower fat pad of the finger and hand and that you can sense Lag Pressure from it. It is the clubhead since we monitor and hit the ball with our Hands.

This "where is PP#3" and what up with this "feel' of a rotated 1/4 turn had been debated and pondered since I first stepped in the TGM world- long before Yoda even. A long list of well respected TGM aficionados all had asumptions as to what that was. We had a lot to learn.

Mike.. I think it makes sense to me at least for the finger to be Hooked for swinger..

Due to the Pitch elbow. and Karate chop... the Hook trigger finger places the PP 3 directly behind the Plane of action ... or the ARC of Circular motion.

While for a Hitter , the right hand is relatively more Perpendicular to the plane of action. also caused the PUNCH elbow and the "primary lever assembly" ... if assembled together. Put the pp3 behind the Angle of Thrust ..

Like a Jigsaw puzzle.. One puzzle fit to another puzzle..and it all made more and more sense.

Identity Theft
 

Keep them seperate Nuke. As Mike mentions, the role of extensor action is checkrein action. The right arm is always trying to straighten. It's a power package function that helps maintain structural ridgity, and assist in rhythm among other things.

Extensor action is not for the secondary assembly of the flail (clubshaft) per se. Even though it can be applied to either pressure point 1, the heel of right hand or pressure point three, the base of the right index finger. Its function is applied to the primary lever assembly (left arm) in hitting or swinging. To stretch but not move the left arm. No difference hitting or swinging and it's not a power source.

Accumulator 1 has a different role. It is a power source.

Bagger,

Sorry,>..< still not absolutely happy digging yet..SO which mean this doesn't mean anything at all? quoting from 6 B 1 D, HK did write it for a good reason ?


Pulling Secondary assembly?


THEN

Pulling Primary Assembly?


Its talking about 2 separate thing. The word IN WHICH CASE . ONLY .. is high lighted by me...Now.. If HK did not use this IN WHICH CASE, and ONLY .. then what you say is totally in - line..



Please explain ? Thank you.

Study 10-18 and 10-2. The shape of the finger has nothing to do with how or who uses the Lag Pressure of pp#3. It is the Action of the Left wrist that is being used in the stroke.

It is not the positions you want to create they are useful but how they form with proper alignments- not the same thing. Horse and cart kind of thing.
I would concentrate of using the components Homer listed in 10-1-0 and 10-2-0, add the correct Action and forget about what position something needs to be in. The alignments work. You will find the puzzle fits fine.

No, he's talking about doing the same thing two different ways. Your option.

Also, put in your noggin that the stretch needs to be below plane.

Mike , I understood in what your saying about wrist action, grips etc. Also part of the puzzle.

The above quote in 10-11-0-3 PP 3 meant nothing? why did he have to Remind us ? I agree its not how PP is used.. But to me its more like because of the Elbow position and Loading that there is such mini difference.

I'm out of the answers you want.
I do know that when you put (Action) the correct alignments in Motion, it all works.
I'm not Homer, I'm not Yoda. They are the teachers, I'm just a student with a loud typewriter.

Close enough..
 

"Lag" needs to be sustained through the grip by pushing in "hitting" or by pulling in "swinging", or by both in "switting".

Nuke - As long as you have a pressure point 3 in the right place, the shape of the right index finger around the shaft doesn't matter in hitting or swinging. It can be helpful to have it hooked if you prefer a lagging takeaway.

As Mike mentioned, Lynn explains pp3 loading very well in the gallery.

Hitting and Swinging are very much different in terms of the method, timing and nature of Acceleration in my opinion. The geometry itself is very much similar ex) you can Hit with a Pitch Elbow and you can Swing with a Punch Elbow. But the differences are very much with regards to how the G.O.L.F.er handles Conservation of Angular Momentum and the requisite Acceleration differences.

So what's the deal? Conservation of Angular Momentum is basically present in ALL golf swings regardless of the method of Thrust (CF or muscle). Clubhead reaches its top speed at Release. It is actually slowing due to conservation of momentum as the radius extends. So the club is either Driven out or Thrown out via CF. Every player is up against this inevitable slow down due to momentum being conserved. However, conservation of momentum is in absence of Thrust. Therefore Mr. Kelley believed that the slow down could be mitigated however not avioded by Thrust. Hence, sustain the Lag Pressure, the Line of Compression and THRUST.

So how is the Thrust different for both procedures? It is different and significantly different.

First the Swinger . . . Mr. Kelley demonstrated the body being in essence a "Massive Rotor" by spinning on one of them spinning chairs or stools. When he stuck out his arms the chair didn't slow down very much. However, when he stuck out his legs the chair slowed significantly. So this basically means that the Swinger has a HUGE mass (his body) relative to his "lightweight" arms that basically Thrust the Lever Assemblies through the Orbit. So what this means with regards to Handspeed is comparitively different than the Hitter. The Swinger gets the Massive Rotor SPINNING at the Start Down. Ideally pulling every component in line QUICKLY via Instant Hip Acceleration . . . then Mr. Kelley said that the function of the Pivot was to "just stay ahead." As a result of the "quick" Startdown blasting the Sweetspot into its On Plane Orbit, the Swinger reaches his Max Handspeed much faster than the Hitter. Then he just "hangs on." No really huge amount of effort is necessary because the Body is so much more MASSIVE relative to the Arms and Club. So just keep turning. This MASSIVE Rotor is the Swinger's advantage over the Hitter.

The Hitter on the other hand forfits to a large degree the Mass of the Pivot. The Right Shoulder (pivot) becomes the "backstop" for the Hitter to Thrust the Tricep and Straightening Right Arm against. Mr. Kelley likened this to the recoil of a shotgun where the shoulder gets beatup by the gun's stock. The pivot as Ted Fort so expertly points out for the Hitter "justs gets the massive cannon ball rolling . . . ITS EASIER TO PUSH A ROLLING CANNONBALL THAN A CANNON BALL AT REST." So the Right Shoulder gets the Right Arm DOWNPLANE past the Line of Sight to the Ball and then the Right Tricep deliverys a PUNCH through Impact. Since the Right Shoulder is simply providing the support for the Punch the Acceleration is NECESSARILY slower in order for the Thrust and the Lag Pressure Loaded by the Pivot to be SUSTAINED. Since the Hitter just has his Ticeps to Thrust and Accelerate his hands through the Release interval. He MUST not shoot his Load to soon. He MUST have a slow startdown and get his Right Shoulder Down Plane otherwise he will run out of Right Arm. Also since he has forfitted the Massive Rotor his Thrust and Max Handspeed has to happen MUCH later.

To me them is the differences . . . and they are"biggies."

Thoughts:

Motion of the triceps related area : yes the same (same appearance)
Behavior of the triceps (the muscle) : about as different as you can get.
Hitting: Muscle is producing force
Swinging: Muscle is NOT producing force. Triceps is allowing the motion of the elbow that throw out produces (triceps not preventing or producing motion).

Yes Bucket ~

I quite understand the mechanics of hitting and swinging their differences .. Master Yoda, Ted and Justin did a A plus plus job on that ..:salut:

My intention is not to repeat and explain what Master Yoda, Ted and Justin had explained in the past.. I am am thinking of what they had explained and the application . HOW they connects, thus the cause and effect . SO... please people.. don't get scared just because I try to explain it another way. Its still the same thing.

The pitch and punch elbow differs because on how it supports the assembly . So I do not really agree that you can hit or swing with both because its also a cause and effect of an alignment.

For example ... For ANY hitters ...in the full swing the right elbow doesn't really start Pushing from the end or top to after impact, they retain the accumulator 1 till waist height or mid swing whatever ( depending on the release point etc) ... The Pivot still need to PULL the arms and right shoulder "Throws"/push the power package, but because of the support of the primary assembly the right shoulder becomes a backstop. Not by intent, its automatic . So Every Hitter is a switter? Because I think we are missing the very obvious.the left pulls, the right push , no matter what. We cannot call that switting, its just Hitting with a delivery stroke . Thus its so similar in that sense..

NOW ... stay with me for a moment. Bucket ! what i am trying to say

Hitting is by Powering and delivering the PRIMARY ASSEMBLY. The right tricep( and forearm ) supports the primary assembly and makes the triangle rigid. The right elbow naturally becomes both Accumulator 1 and Extensor action and naturally become punch elbow .7-3. not by intention.. it have to happen due to the geometry ..

Swinging is by Throwing and delivering the SECONDARY ASSEMBLY . The right tricep (and forearm) supports the secondary assembly the triangle is not rigid .. NO matter how you stretch and push this assembly , the right elbow CANNOT BECOME ACCUMULATOR ONE. It only stays as Extensor Action . Due to this geometry.. The elbow naturally becomes a pitch elbow.. Because of the way the Forearm support the assembly...7-3 ...

SO ,,, I think hitting and swinging.. That are the Cause when we apply .. I believe that other component , effect , would naturally fall into place .. If you see what I mean.

( THOUGH i would bring out one point, is it possible for the Swingers to pull the thumb and strengthen the support of primary assembly as well? I think yes !... Only if he understood the role of the tricep and forearm to support the secondary assembly! IF the arm and hand are educated well, its very ok! But I did not want to bring this point in afraid to confuse my point)



Therefore another way of saying is .. THE DIFFERENCE that you highlighted above are mostly EFFECT... Not that you try to "artificially" create this EFFECT. And thats where alot of people get into trouble .. It should not be done that way.THUS 7-3 , 61BD, how the extensor action/forearm support the assembly is a CAUSE. Of course, delivery line shift etc , instant hip acceleration are part and puzzle but best to leave them for another day.

So now , is it possible to HIT or Swing at the same time? ... Yes... but what for ? and NO, its just not possible unless you want a throwaway and if your forearm and tricep knows their role ..

please think about it ...Then I am happy to be proven otherwise :)..


--------------
Bagger,

Thank you for the answer an the extreme patience !:salut: .. , look is not so different. Again... I am just trying to say.. the position of the PP3 is really "an EFFECT", of how the forearm support the secondary assembly, have to use that position if we want to drive the PP3 behind the shaft, down the plane. HK did mention it but in other words.

--------------
6mike,

I thank you for helping me out here.. It doesn't go forgotten.


Note :

I am trying to explain what I now think,

TO differentiate a swing and a HIT. its not trying simply to match up the 24 component in chapter 12 or get the "motion"and you get a hit or a swing... ,

ie , "Activate " your accumulator 1 to become a hit or a swing, create instant hip acceleration ,load the shaft like a rope or axe , put your elbow this way blah blah.( i believe some people here thinks that way and it became "POSITION" GOLF doesn't it ?). Simply NOT it , These are EFFECTS and not meant to be Artificially created. This way of analogy and the way to apply, explain the ESSENCE of the book is WRONG to me .

I think its slightly more than that. We need to understand the Cause.. and there is the Effect which happens because there is a cause ...and 7-3 is the central of all explanation in the geometry and component of TGM swing and hit, flying wedge.

Cause & effect & LAW.
 

The "LAW" creates the "effect", which is the "motion" or "feel", with the "cause", which is the "intent" or "command".

Cause and Effect
 

Nuke,

I finally managed to get your video message working. Thanks for clarifying your theory about extensor action in hitting and swinging.

I don't completely agree with your view on the roll of extensor action in swinging. As I mentioned before, Extensor Action is the same for both hitting and swinging. It is only concerned with the arms, not the clubshaft. From a limited standpoint, you can use extensor action with pp#3, but it's use is generally for chip shots. Better off reserving #3 for sensing clubhead lag.

At the top, elbow position is based on the loading. The load is always behind the shaft. Swingers and hitters differ in their loading hence the elbow positions are different, but the load is still directly behind the shaft for both.

Through release, elbow position "effect" is more about hand motion. If the right palm is facing up during release, the forearm/elbow is more pitch. If the right palm is facing the ball, the punch elbow is "in effect".

The pitch/punch elbow release effects are usually a result of the 4-D-0 hand motions of swingers and hitters during release. Swivel and Roll or lack thereof.

This is all in preparation for supporting lag pressure, behind the shaft, through impact.

Again, I really like your thinking and attempt to sort these things out. Let the incubator take over and the answers will come.

Oh, and I wouldn't ever humilate you. You have to exceed my total post number before becoming a target and so far, only one guy is in my crosshairs. :twisted: (Here comes another Public Group joke). I can read him like a book.

Besides, you're too nice of a guy. :)

Alignments Flow, positions don't.

Homer was not against positions in golf, he was against "fixed" position golf. Here is the difference- again, I lead you to the "Where is pp3" video. One of the reasons I made that clip from that part Yoda’s class was because Lynn covered several key points in the span of a few minutes. Load, Lag Pressure, Normal Force, PP3, Line of Sight, Accumulator Roll, 10-2 Single and Strong grip. Where else can you get this stuff? And about the difference between alignment and position golf.

“If you are in Position Golf it becomes an Elbow thing, if you are in Alignment Golf it becomes a Loading thing.”

G.O.L.F. has positions, the ones that alignments produce. The ones the Action flows through. It is not the positions of an eight step program or what an instruction feels your top position must look like. Produce the alignments and don’t fret about what needs to go where.

Thanks Bagger and Mike.

Its always a challenge to think and connect in different methods.

Another having fun day in LBG


Oh Btw, there is no stamp of approval on this thread.. Treat it as reference, just another point of view. i suggest.