"The Secret"
 

There is CLUBHEAD LAG, ACCUMULATOR LAG, and PIVOT LAG. ACCUMULATOR LAG and PIVOT LAG are big deals, but I believe CLUBHEAD LAG is the main "secret of golf". Tom Weiskopf and Greg Norman, for examples, do not have much of a LATE HIT(#2 ACCUMULATOR LAG), but do have Clubhead Lag, or we would never have heard of them.

All tour players have CLUBHEAD LAG. They may not be able to describe Clubhead Lag, and may not even be very aware of it, but they have IT, whether they know it or not. They load the shaft and clubhead(stressed shaft), and sustain the lag at least until impact. They just have IT, most of them probably inately.

The TGM, and MORAD trained teachers seem to be among the best in the world at teaching golfers to acquire CLUBHEAD LAG.

Constant acceleration.
 

They might not know it. But they sure can make constant acceleration to the clubhead or swing it smoothly, regardless of the swing speed. Yet, it's a lot easier to do it, if you know the "secret".

You know, sometimes you never know.
 

I had a student that just was not able to apply the concept of Clubhead Lag. They understood the The Essence, had studied, 6-C-2-A, but were not able to execute it.

I finally said to him, "Stop trying to take the Clubface at the Ball". The Clubface is for Direction (Purpose) and Accuracy, not Force and Power. He looked at me, like he had just been hit up side the head with a Lagging Clubhead. Instantly, he was able to grasp the concept. I don't like to use negative orders, but sometimes you never know what goes on inside the "Grey Matter".

Shaft
 

The player must be able to sense the Stressed Clubshaft through (usually the #3 Pressure Point). What about the shaft itself(flex, frequency, weight, etc.)? How much of a factor do you think this is in being able to produce, sense and sustain CLUBHEAD LAG?

Every freakin' week you flat knock one outtadapahk!!! You are a damn wizard of words, ruler of rap, not soft, not sucker, could never be a sap . . .

The above statement is PURE genius!!!

Tell us how you get people to "dismiss" the clubface please sir. You is one of the greatest Machinist of ALL time . . .

Per Kelley, until the secret is mastered, "nothing esle matters."
So for all questions: "What is most important?" or "Given limited time, what should I focus on? (in BOTH understanding and application)?", Kelley answers the questions in no uncertain terms.

Clubface Lag!
 

I won't say dismiss the Clubface, just put it in the Zone it was intended to be in. "The Zones are a natural division of the action and their identities must be maintained", said Mr. Kelley. I still like Hinge Action in Zone 3 (my opinion only); Ball Contol and direction. The Clubface makes three Actions, that is it. It isn't meant to be in Zone 2 (again my opinion). But when you are throwing the Clubface at the ball you are putting it there; along with a host of other undesirables. So in this case it wasn't just Clubhead Lag, but "Clubface Lag" (for lack of a better term) executing a Hinge Action; Left Hand Clubface, Right Hand Clubhead.

If your builing a house, do you first worry about puting a roof over your head, or doing the landscaping?

Per Kelley, the SECRET, with knowledge of plane line tracing, is general direction control.

Zone 3 is finesse direction control.

With understanding, a person will realize that it is not logical to first focus on the clubface (obviously NOT talking about the simple act of initially aiming the clubface - certainly you'd want to concern yourself with this). It is likely the person will want to act in a logical fashion.

So zone 2 is the clubhead and zone 3 is the clubface. Even though PP3 is in zone 3 it only senses the clubhead, while the motion of the arms should control the clubhead ? This is cool, thanks Drew.

But you do dismiss the clubHEAD no? via hit the ball with the pressure points?

Do you think a Swinger with all the Swivels using a Snap Release can focus on Hinge Action? Or does he just bring his Left Wrist in FLV and let CF do its thang?

You always hit the ball with the pressure points in your Hands (monitor your hands); that is key to The System. If the Clubhead is monitored directly your game and your wallet will suffer.

As for a Swinger it is their choice. "True Swingers" don't worry about Hinge Action. They let CF have its way with them; there easy.

Applause
 

Great post!

You made sense of Bucket's post when there was little sense to be made...

:salut:

UPP ( fresh from Oakmont)

But I think it is next to impossible (for me at least) to have club head lag or accumulator lag without first having pivot lag

cf will not produce a hinge action.

Sorry Champ.
 

For the True Swinger, Centrifugal Force automatically and exclusively produces Horizontal Hinge Action. That is why ball location is so critical to produce the desired direction.

True.
 

True, so true.

On-plane inertia
 

Or should we say the inertia of the club traveling on a flat plane "automatically and exclusively produces a Horizontal Hinge Action"?

I'll stick with my original post.

Are we talking about CF or Accumulator 3?

Hinge Action is rhythm. Acc3 is rhythm control. Read the second paragraph of 6-B-3-0. True Throw-out action of CF aligns the clubface for Horizontal Hinging.

So where does CF end, HH begins, and how the heck can anyone divide this on the Swinger's DownStroke? A Swinger can have the 'feel' of HH being the Turn/Roll Action, so CF will sub as HH for the 'true' throw-out Swing Pattern. A Swinger CANNOT control the clubface like a Hitter. Trust in ball postion and alignments is all he or she has.

Hinge is Motion/Geometry and CF is Power/physics. Yin and Yang. No one or the other.

Does HH exist without CF? Of course. Educated Hands of a machine head can perform all hinge motions.

If you a SWINGER and prepare to execute a Hinge Action on an Incline Plane with 3-F-6- you are ahead of the game.

I'm thinking physics produces motion. The Horizontal Hinge Assembly can exist without CF. All Hinge Action is a result of some Force acting on the assembly. In a swinger's case it is CF. And CF is produced by rotation (of the body and arms). Force is a must for hinge action.

Secret
 

Several things have to work properly to get the SECRET to work. Tom Tomasello taught, along with probably many other AI's... to "never speed up your hands through the ball. Get it down there, either by a Right Forearm motion, or by the Pivot, and let the ENDLESS BELT do it's work. Do not add hand flipping to the mechanism.

This is my thought too.. 2 different and both effective pattern.

Look at Greg Machatton , Bobby Schaeffer, Billy Mckinney swing. 100% CF throwout. 100% horizontal motion.

Vs. Yoda's swing, Jeff Hull , the right forearm, "Accumulator 1" still gives the POW ! Different... Yoda's way is more Hogan's way, this way controls the Hinge better. 4 barrel swing, and so its possible.

So, the tendencies is not truly accurate and its possible to have angled hinging swingers..

Am i getting somewhere?

I promise you Jeffy and Lynnard ain't usin' no 4-barrel swing . . . You may see Lynnard rock 4 barrels on a hit . . . but not no swing. fahgitaboutdit.

yeah bucket.. Its actually extensor action, and you can call it 3 barrel.thus it is "". or "4 barrel". but...the way Yoda golfgnome use its different from the way Greg use it...

Gregg group of model use total CF throwout. really soft wrists. No matter what.. horizontal hinge. It reacts to the CF, CP totally, and the wrists roll with the throwout. The most relaxed way. and letting the club work

Lynn's, TT, Golfgnome,Hogan,BG way is more structured, The finish is more "held on" and maybe you can called it controlled, this method have superior control of the hinges. Still depends on throwout but a lot more active thrust, provided by the right elbow... You could call this Hitting with a Pitch elbow.. Doesn't react to a CF or gravity.. but more active on thrust. This model can use a shorter 3/4 swing.

So,, its whuteverucallit ... Puhhhh....Hitting , Swinging.. -_-a....A term is just a term... Really doesn't matter eventually in the application.

Would love to hear Yoda on this point. Am I getting closer?

Naw dude . . . you are way farther away. I think you are mistaking float loading for true cf swinging. I promise you there is no right arm participation in Jeffy or Lynnie's stroke . . . other than stretching the left arm. . . that's it.

Remember McHatton is more from the Doyle school of thought . . . Doyle strives for the Maximum Participation pattern in the 3rd Edition. An ACTIVE Right Arm.

It may look like Yodalishush and JH are doing that but they ain't. You are just seeing more structure and less float . . . that's it . . . right arm is moved but not active . . . it is a left wrist throw. You can call it hitting with a pitch elbow . . . but you'd be wrong.

Not trying to dawg you out or anything . . . but are off the reservation on this one.

Yub.. I think I understand you Ol' Dawg.

it is , extensor action, but look at TT explanation, How Hogan wish he got 3 right hands. The Extensor action is not as Passive as we think. Drag is not simply DRAG. Just terms , and words I guess.

Ultimately, Motions and Feel is the most important, and its hard to describe Feel. How do you describe love? ..

Secret gnome power
 

I just got off the phone with bucket and felt compelled to give my side of the debate. I can't speak for Lynn, but we have had this discussion before. I have called Lynn and asked him if I am hitting or swinging because I do feel an active right arm. In fact I feel that when I am playing my best golf I use an angle of approach (alternate target line) procedure. I have a tendency to get above plane so I have to exagerate the "feel" of this line. Danny Elkins and Chris Asbell talk about driving the clubhead SS through 7:00 past 1:00 on a clock face, this is a great visual no matter who you are.

As I was talking to Bucket I told him that I also feel like I am pulling and pushing at the same time!! To explain this I will say that in martial arts to throw a right handed punch with max power the left side must pull out of the way. This is what I feel when I hit a good shot.

I would have to say that I am definately more swinging than hitting but I do feel and use my right arm, this is where I do feel my power from. However, my pivot is extremely important to allowing this participation to occur. The bottom line is that once you understand the Star System Triad I do not think that a player should necessarily concearn themselves with swinging or hitting, only what makes the ball go far and straight. If you have incompatible components then the ball will respond accordingly.

I am constantly working on basic and acquired motion drills with all 3 hinge actions because this is the only way I know how the ball will respond on the golf course. It also allows me to know the "why" some feels work and some don't.

I talked about the wrist throw in one of the videos I did with Lynn and How important it is for me to uncock first. Maybe it is beause of extensor action and maybe it is becasue of a driving right arm, all I know is that I try to uncock then roll in a sequenced release. Obviously more swinging than hitting.

My main point here is that only the player can determine what is best for them. As Homer says "the more rudimentary a player's skill, the less difference the "differences" make and the more difference the "sameness" make. The more precise a player's skill becomes the more this is reversed."

He also goes on to say in 1-J that a players seldom uses "precisely" the same stroke pattern more than once in a lifetime...and a "feel"system without an "engineering" system is a lopsided lottery, and a "feel" system is indespensible in such a complex action as we have in the Golf Stroke....Let mechanics produce and feel reproduce.

I hope this sheds some light on what I do. Remember this is not "The Way" theory, only "My Way" procedures as I feel them.

Powergnome,

I feel compelled to call you that because man, your powerful !

And thank your for your explanation, good stuffs.

Its really tough to put swinging/Hitting into classifications and describe the exact feel. Bagger did PM me regarding, he thought he was hitting , Yoda & You mentioned that it look like a great swing. Well, too much opinion on this one to decide which one is right. But I am happy with your explanation, and there is no point trying to understand further.


Looking forward to hear more of your wins.

Subtile Differences
 

Jeff,

Thanks for coming out on this subject.

I remember the last time we met and I attempted to demonstrate my "hit" stroke to you and Lynn. You both replied that my hit "looked like" a very good swing and we talked about the very same thing as above.

Homer said that it is very difficult to visually tell the difference between hitting and swinging. In both cases it is a left arm stroke unless the right elbow becomes the center of the stroke. The right arm can either be passive or active. If it is active and driving by definition it's a hit. If it is passive and the pulling pivot is throwing the power package, then it's a swing.

In your case, you do a non-automatic release of #2 (uncock downplane), and have a smooth release continuation into the #3 overtaking roll. This provides maximum power for the #3 accumulator. I suggest that it is at that point where your right arm helps drive the #3 accumulator roll. If you didn't add structure with your right arm, you may find it difficult to roll that clubhead over through impact and while sustaining lag pressure and resisting impact deceleration. Is that simply "Extensor Action" in action?

I would like to suggest that extensor "action" helps contribute to the feeling of "pushing" for you. It would be interesting to see what happens when you nearly zero out #3 by putting the grip more towards the cup of your left hand. Would you feel a pushing sensation then or could you keep the right arm more passive and allow momentum transfer to square everything up?

I'm really enjoying the text in the 2nd Edition. :)
"6-C-2-A THE ESSENCE of Clubhead Lag technique is -DRIVING THE PRESTRESSED CLUBSHAFT THROUGH AND BEYOND IMPACT.
The Clubshaft is stressed by the weight of the Clubhead resisting a change in its direction or velocity - which is Acceleration. Acceleration is the result of Thrust and the Thrust of this action is supplied by the Clubhead Lag Pressure Point Pressure - about 50% #2 and/or #3 with about 50% #1 is the recommended balance. Plus firm Extensor Action. From Putter to Driver, the Clubhead Lag technique is indispensible."

I would suggest that during release when you swing and I "hit" that in reality we are swinging but during release in order to maintain lag pressure (i.e. keep the clubshaft bent) we are feeling signficant extensor action which is required to maintain MASS and prevent clubhead deceleration during impact. It is simply the right arm effort to always be straight, thereby keeping the power package from breaking down through release and impact.

It may feel like we are pushing but to be honest, I don't think you or I come anywhere near the true hitting (pushing) that Ted Fort can demonstrate.

A sure test of being able to tell the difference - hit shots with the right arm only and then left arm only.

A swinger who can really use PP#4 well will tend to 'feel' a very strong straightening of the right arm through impact, and an accompanied strong support for impact (lag pressure). The left arm only swings will show just how well you are loading #4.

If you can't hit a right arm only shot well, you probably are not 'hitting' IMO. I like to practice with a wedge, my 110 club to about 80 yards, right hand only when working on a hit pattern.

Edz,

Thats what I thought too.. the answer is not as simple as that.

I do not think that Greg McHatton has an active right arm. Whilst he is obviously close to Ben Doyle, he does not describe a active accumulator 1 motion on his videos. He does a drill where he swings the club into the side of a steep hill - when he does it right the clubhead bounces back off the hill because there is nothing in his right hand to drive it forwards... the clubhead hits an immoveable object and has no active force driving it forwards... Greg is all CF.

Ben Doyle does describe 4 barrels though...

I agree completely with golfbulldog. McHatton has about as much right arm bend at impact as Hogan. That seems to indicate it is not active.

Also , its is written 7-3 that it is mandatory for swinging and hitting ,not only hands or shaft the right forearm must be driven or thrown into impact. He did not say for HITTING must be driven or swinging must be thrown. I guess it is a choice.

I also think, the way the right forearm is aligned for swinging, it pulls the left arm like a piece of string and support the secondary . That type of assembly allows for CF throwout. Adding a Drive in that assembly is perfectly acceptable, regardless of swinging or hitting , as explained by TT.

So we got 2 ways . and still being able to do a 4 Barrell swing since the right is actively driving . Though Homer used to say there is no 4 barrel swing.. BUT IMHO, at that context of time he feel he need to explain that way or think there isn't one.

FOR a HIT, the left arm is a wall, and the right forearm is actively driving via primary assembly , there is less CF throwout. Notice i say less.

Because Anyhow, the left can only pull, the right can only push. Pull causes throwout, push is drive.

Let me know what you think, Thank you

Either way.
 

The left can push (in "hitting") and the right can pull (in "swinging"), as well.

I am a Pushover.
 

:question:

As far as I can tell only the Right Arm and Shoulder are in a position to Push.

Agree. And the left arm ain't a wall, either

I think a lot of you are "Seems to be-ing" in this thread.

I bought Homer's first book and all the subsequent ones also. I took a lesson from him and Ben Doyle in 1969 in Seattle. Later had lunch with Homer from about about 1974 until he died. Below is how he really felt. He expected his students to take his work to another level.

****1-H "Because of questions of all kinds, reams of additional detail must be made available - but separately, and probably endlessly." Homer Kelly ****

Please open the attached URL:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_8h7GJa-YY

This is a 5-barrel stroke with pp#5. Is it a swing or a hit?

Good one xyz! :laughing9

Wish I would have started that young.
Looks like the boy had some targets to shoot at as well!

When you have some time, share some Homer with us. :)

P.S. I fixed your link.

Nice clip!
 

That's great! Sounds like Moe Norman- has a better swing than me and hits it further than Bucket!