Finish swivel
 

Hello,
I didn't quite get a grip on that matter.
Does finish swivel occur automatically or must one execute it consciously?
Thanks for any proper reply.

You may have already seen these, but here is a video and some pictures on the subject.

http://www.lynnblakegolf.com/gallery...7/swivel11.wmv

http://www.lynnblakegolf.com/gallery...ry.php?cat=524

Thanks bambam,
I saw that already. Lynn says you must be prepared to swivel already when
you're at the top of backswing and that swivel is the final part of wrist rolling
on plane thru impact,
but that leads me to another question. Should I consciously roll my left wrist
at impact or should I let it happen by means of CF alone?

I am not an expert by any means but I find that the finish swivel happens automatically when I hit a full shot but when I am hitting an aquired motion or punch shot I consiously add the finish swivel after the both arms straight follow through position

The finish swivel happens automatically for me, but I (at least right now) do have to initiate the roll through impact. Impact shouldn't be executed as a swivel; the finish swivel happens after your hinge action. Remember the roll through impact is your hinge action / rhythm; it's your left arm, not your wrist.

Thanks Seanmx,
of course I'm talking full swinging procedure.
My problem is that if I only think of left wrist throwout action the swivel
doesn't happen automatically and I end up with nearly an angled hinge.
On the contrary if I think (as Yoda says) already from the top to wrist roll
thru impact I don't execute any throwout action. Maybe that has something
to do with triggering and release type I'm performing,which I'm not aware of?

Maybe worth a try
 

Perhaps practise hitting punch shots with a nice slow swing and add the finish swivel after the both arms straight postion. To me this feels like truning my left wrist onto the plane and coking my left wrist. This allows the club to move above the hands.

Maybe this might give you the feeling of the finish swivel.

Health Warning: I am neither a TGM expert or an expert golfer!

Still sounds to me like your getting the concepts of finish swivel and roll a little mixed up. You can swivel regardless which hinge action you use or whether you full roll (horizontal hinge), no roll (angled hinge), or reverse roll (vertical hinge), and it happens well after impact and the hinge action.

For a horizontal hinge, I like to think about my left knuckles and elbow. (Assuming a fairly neutral grip at fix), your knuckles will be pointing towards the ground and your left wrist will be flat until both arms straight. To keep them pointing at the ground as you pivot you'll roll your left arm. Once you can roll no more, the club has to go somewhere (swivel time)...your knuckles won't be pointing at the ground any more as your wrist keeps going and your left arm starts to fold. The elbow? My usual feel is that it stays pointing at the ground even after the left arm starts to fold...seems to help me feel swivel and hinging separately. If you overaccelerate, all this stuff can get out of whack very easily; focusing on pp4 can also help.

Watch Yoda's "Ready to Roll" and hinge action videos again and the video series with Jeff Hull (especially the one where he's doing punch shots). If you practice some punch shots with and without a finish swivel you can better isolate hinging from swivel.

Swivel Vs Hinging
 

This is a very important point, it took me a lot of pain with wierd and not no wonderful golf shots to figure this one out.

Consider:

What is it Kelley says...endless hours dealing with effects instead of causes?
Check right forearm angle/arc of approach. Make sure the right forearm is being driven (passively by centrifugal force) toward the plane line (not over plane line). Hands correctly driven (actively or passively), correctly down and out produce hinging and the finish swivel. If you are coming over plane, it is certainly possible that your mind will not let you perform correct actions leading up to the finish swivel, because if over plane driving continues, you'll hit the ball dead left.

This is the part that helps me more.
I don't mix up roll with swivel; I just wanted to know which of the two things
I must think about when approaching impact zone. On the other hand I'm
wandering why should be swivel of any importance (since the top of backswing,as Lynn states), if it occurs well after the ball is struck? Does it have any influence on the shot or not?
Anyway my main concern is that I cannot reconcile nor connect throwout
action with rolling my left arm thru impact. Maybe I don't understand (as
English is not my language) what throw out means. As I intend it, throw out
is the uncocking of the left wrist (releasing of N. 2 accumulator) downplane.
Now,assuming this is correct,should I perform the rolling of the left forearm
simultaneaously with the uncocking of the left wrist? Looks like I can't
perform both things at the same time. The outcome is this: If I think of
throw out I get well struck shots,but they're pushes. If I think of rolling
thru impact I still get good struck shots but they're pulls.
So I ask you bambam : is throw out action part of your conscious swing
thoughts or not? If yes,how do you accomodate throw out with rolling? and
still getting a horizontal hinge?

Clue: I never slice nor hook my shots,only pushes and pulls. What would the
doctor say?
Thanks again to all of you .

Ideally you aren't thinking about anything when approaching impact because there's not much you can do about it at that point :) All this stuff should be in the computer before you ever pull the trigger.

I'm sure others could add to this, but knowing what alignments you want to have at each station is critical. If you don't know how to swivel or even what a swivel look like, doing it properly will be pure luck. The swivel is a natural bridge from both arms straight to finish. Any other move there will probably introduce some compensations and have negative implications on impact.

Where's 12 piece when we need him? He's had some good posts on throwout action recently.

Your release motion can be simultaneous (typical of a hitter) or sequenced (typical of a swinger). In a sequenced release you uncock then roll (check out the "are you ready to roll" video). You can increase/decrease overlap of those accumulator releases to increase thrust/velocity. If I had my book with me, I'd give you chapter numbers. Do a search on sequenced release and you'll get some good stuff.

Right now I am thinking about feeling the roll. The past few months, I was thinking about feeling the uncock, but that's becoming natural (shut up bucket). I hit pushes for a while during that process. If I roll before I uncock, fore left. If I don't roll, then I either get throwaway or a hinge action I didn't setup for...fore right.

SECGolf had a good reply to your question. It's possible you're trying to fix a symptom rather than a cause. If you have video or an instructor, check to make sure you aren't swaying, bobbing, or otherwise screwing up your plane. I found until Lynn and Ted helped me with some plane issues, I couldn't get my hands and the club to consistently do what I knew they were supposed to through impact.

Having thought of this only because of personal experience (same problem), it really, really sounds like you are coming into impact over plane.

Related, as far as what to think about, ultimately, think of driving (swing - passively, hit - actively) down and out toward the plane. Because of your already installed hinge assembly (and preprogrammed Type of hinge assembly), hinging will occur as a result of thrust to the plane line. The tremendous momentum from these actions will necessitate that a finish swivel occurs. Now, actively causing, or actively monitering a finish swivel, for a period of time, might help the actions preceding the swivel (preceding actions will be "forced into place").

Think of a door. There is no need to think of hinging. The hinge assembly is already installed. All you have to do is push (drive the door). All "timing" - when the door will line up with the frame - is taken care of by the hinge assembly.

As far as over plane driving, focus on eliminating clubhead throwaway by establishing, producing and maintaining clubhead lag pressure (Clubhead feel). If you lose clubhead feel, you will have throw away.

bamban,
thanks a lot for all your suggestions.

[quote=SECGolf;42938]Having thought of this only because of personal experience (same problem), it really, really sounds like you are coming into impact over plane.

I'm not sure of what you mean by "over plane"; is that the same as "above
plane"? or you mean I'm reaching out with the clubhead beyond the plane
line?

[quote=SECGolf;42938]All you have to do is push (drive the door). All "timing" - when the door will line up with the frame - is taken care of by the hinge assembly.

Wait a minute...what am I supposed to push? I think only of pulling with my
left arm.

Anyway I thank you so much for all your precious infos.

Ciao

SECGolf,or anybody else could be so kind to explain me what exactly means
swinging "over plane"?

Thanks

[quote=libero;42949][quote=SECGolf;42938]Having thought of this only because of personal experience (same problem), it really, really sounds like you are coming into impact over plane.

I'm not sure of what you mean by "over plane"; is that the same as "above
plane"? or you mean I'm reaching out with the clubhead beyond the plane
line?

The base of an inclined plane is a straight line. When the shaft is not parrallel to the staight line (base of inclined plane), the end (of shaft - handle or clubhead) closest to the ground should point at this line ("on plane"). If you are right handed and the end is pointing to the right of the line you are over plane (shaft would be over a "real" inclined plane board - if you had one). Pointing to left side of plane line would indicate "under plane" - your chosen plane line.

"Push" - confusing choice of words on my part. Push only when referring to an actual door and its hinge assembly (and NOT for a swinging golf stroke procedure). In golf force is push of triceps - hitting - , centrifugal force - swinging . I believe these forces are what relates to pushing an actual door.

I believe the finish swivel is a result all that has come beforehand in a forceful, on plane golf swing. The finish swivel is allowed to happen.

Thanks a lot SECGolf! Now the lesson is complete and cleared a bit of fog
for me,at least regarding the plane.
I'm in debt with you.
Regards

Let me add some fog! It is possible to make a golf stroke such that the golf shaft always points at the target line. Such an action requires the least amount of physical effort by the golfer since all of one's effort is eventually directed at the ball. However, because of the human's bio-mechanical structure, to do so, the club shaft will always be swinging on very different inclined-planes. Dunn was wrong and Hogan very wrong, but they both were effective golfers.

Foghorn
 

xyz,

I'll bite -
Are you talking about a full stroke, abbreviated finish, or something radically different?

If radically different, is it "golf-like"?

Whenever the handle of the club and clubhead switch ends, the clubshaft would be parallel to the planeline, not pointing at it.

I'm fogged up at this point. :)

Els and the hinge + swivel
 

Bump...

Still wait'in for some fog lifting xyz. :)
At some point in a full swing the clubshaft is typically parallel to the plane line during release and after follow through. Let's not forget about the end of the backswing as well. Three sections total.

Lets hear about it. :salut:

Yes it would be possible with on a putt. You would have to bend way over to do so.

Bagger,
You are right. I mis-wrote. Whenever the clubshaft is parallel to the ground, it points to aft and/or forward infinity and can't point at plane line. However, except for those brief moments, the rest of my comment is correct. Thanks for the correction.

A variation on the original question, edits in green....:golf: