TGM Shortcomings in Driving??
 

My first post and just wondering, does anyone else have issues when it comes to driving the ball? Does TGM work really well for Iron play, but not so good for Drivers?
Before I got into TGM, about a year ago, I was a 10 handicap struggling with golf my 7 iron went about 150 yards, now I’m a 6 handicap payer with a 7 iron flying 165 to 170, and it’s all to do with compression and lag and a flat left wrist, so I agree 100% that using TGM for iron play (and actually putting) woks really well.
However, I cannot keep my driver on the golf course, it sprays all over the place, my really low scores come only when I employ “course management” which is another phrase for being too scared to hit a driver of the tee I use a 3 wood or hybrid or iron, which is no fun at all. Is there anyone else having Driver issues, can anyone point us in the right direction?
Thanks

The best answer, I believe to part of the question, is another question:

Do the laws of geometry and physics apply completely to iron play and not so completely to driver play?

Flaws will be magnified with longer clubs.

It is easier to compensate with shorter clubs.

And these statements in no way contradict the fact that one may certainly be improving (or that one may have seen significant improvement).

Jamnet,

Welcome to the forum and thanks for the first post.
The principles of a sound geometric swing apply to all clubs.
You probably need a good pair of eyes on your driver swing to diagnose what is happening.

Ted Fort has some Long Drive guys that see him. All of our Pro Contributors hit'em pretty darn straight.

Then there's this 900 year old green fellow who hangs out here that can whollop it with pin seeking accuracy.
He knows a little TGM as well. :)

Thanks for the replies and I do believe that TGM is an incredible powerful method to describe all swing motions and how to employ the best swing patterns, to maximize your particular golf swing following the laws of geometry and physics. However, when I read quotes like "sustain lag pressure as it drives down to China" that, to my young TGM ears, is saying drive the pressure point down so that the club squeezes the ball against turf, I can do this with an iron or wood or anything of the deck, however, I don’t know how to do the same thing with a driver when the ball is sitting on a tee a couple of inches off the turf. Any help?? I am seeing an AI maybe once a month and credit him and TGM for getting me where I am now, but I just need more and more information.

Thanks,

Rarely if ever does a ball get squeezed between the clubface and turf. It does get severely compressed (pancaked) against the clubface though and is usually gone before the face is taking up turf. It's a good swing thought because a decending blow is what you want with all clubs, even a teed up driver.

I've seen several TOUR players as recently as last week taking divots with teed up three woods. The descent for a Driver is much shallower than an iron, but it should be contacting the ball during it's downward descent just before low point.

You might try hitting your driver off the deck as a drill. Once you get a nice trajectory out of it and flying straight, take that same swing from a tee. Hover your clubhead if you need to.

Keep in mind that just about anything can be overdone. The trick with each TGM component is finding the right one for you and then learning its tolerances.

You'll find a ton of good information here to supplement your learning. Last time I checked we had over 40,000 posts. Most of them TGM related except for the rantings of a few crazy members. :redface:

Bagger,
Absolutely correct for irons and woods!!!

The more we understand TGM.

Powerless Effort---> Effortless Power.

And the secret to TGM is on how to apply it.

TGM is absolutely correct with EVERY CLUB IN THE BAG THAT IS CORRECTLY FIT!!!.. I say this because I have found in teaching and fitting people, loft is especially useful. Think of it this way, it is easy to explain shaft lean with a wedge or even a seven iron because if the shaft leans forward, you still have loft. However, most people play with too little loft with the driver, and when you create the proper geometrical alignments with a driver, the ball goes low right. This is the reason that 90% of the people I teach hit a 3wood or hybrid better...they have more loft.

The average player needs to produce a minimum of 13 degrees of launch angle. If your driver has less than 10 degrees of loft, what must you do to produce the lift? Swing up? bend the left wrist? Bend the plane line? Why not just put more loft on your driver and produce the same alignments that you produce with your other clubs.

I recently worked with a Hooter's Tour Player and convinced him he needed at least 11.5 degrees of loft on his driver compared to the 9 degrees he was using. The first week he put it in play he finished 3rd and said it was the most consistent he had hit is driver for 4 rounds ever and that he actually felt like he was making the same swing throughout the bag and not compenstating for the Driver. He no longer "fell back behind the ball" and maintained a steady head DOWN PLANE.

Remember what Trevino said, "give me loft, I'll take it off".

Hall of Fame Post
 

Great post Mr. Professional Clubfitter...uhhh...Teaching Pro...uhhh...Tournament Champion...uhhh...

LBG Hall of Fame poster dude.

That's it! - We need an LBG Hall of Fame!:)

Iron and Driver....TGM....Crazy long
 

I learn the system by watching all stuffs, the Book; LBG; LBG videos...for 2 years. With hard work...my driver and iron distance both add 13%...

7-iron (stiff shaft MP32) distance is 175 yards; Driver (TM TP stiff Tour AD) is 270 yards...carry.

I am a self-taught player and never attended a lesson, how come i can achieve such a PRO distance?

:salut: Homer Kelley, TGM, Yoda, LBG...

Very interesting idea.
 

Very interesting idea. Thanks Jeff.

MAJOR LIGHT ON HERE! *bing* I can see it better now, thanks Bagger!

Thanks
 

Cool! My pleasure. I really enjoy those swingvision slomo's of clubface/ball compression.

Hence the TGM mandate, "sustain the line of compression".

It truely is a line, and a very precise one at that.

Hi KOC,
as I don't take lessons either,can you explain in more details how you
hit your driver? Do you feel anything different in hitting your driver than,say,
your 9 iron? Are you hitting or Swinging?
Thanks for your reply.

Light Bulb Moment
 

Just to give you a follow-up .....
I took Bagger’s advice and went to the practice range and hit many drivers of the deck, after hitting pretty much every shot either low left, low right or just a plain old top and running out of daylight I was thinking that maybe this was not going to work for me and I would have to have two swings, one for the Irons and one for the Driver. However, I don’t give up that easy, a couple of days later I went back to the range and it was the same old story, low right, low left or top... then all of a sudden the ball started flying straight for a pole about 260 yards away, one after another flying straight for the pole either with an ever so slight draw or fade .... and remember this was of the deck .. so then I switched to a teed up ball ... the same result, but, about 20 yards further and all struck with that unmistakable sound of compression. AMAZING!!
Thanks Bagger for the great advice and I will incorporate this drill in all my practice time.
My keys for the driver now are:
Set up more in an impact fix position, however, with a square stance.
Extensor action maintains the right wrist angle and the shaft on plane to the top of the swing.
From the top pressure point 3 sustains the lag all the way down and through the ball.

If I try and over power pressure point 3 the ball usually ends up going to the left, which feels like a slight pull hook.

Thanks again Bagger!!

How Small becomes Big
 

Wow! 20 yards.
That's great to hear and thanks for the feedback.

The last time I got together with Yoda, one of the things that I came home with was teeing the Driver lower. Maybe an inch high at the most.

I was hitting the driver with long tees and he walked up, pushed my 3 inch tee about two inches lower, looked at me with his green grin and said, "That's all you need Bagger, now hit down, out and forward". Instantly I was getting true loft out of my 9.5 degree Driver instead of 11. I was creating loft by making swing compensations. Those compensations were hurting me with every club because I was "hanging back" rather than "getting through" the stroke.

Post a clip of your motion if you have the chance. A few areas to look in the meanwhile.....

Are you as 'in balance' and stable with your driver as your wedges?
Is your motion smooth? or does it have wobbles?
Are you maintaining a stable center?
Are you supporting impact?

If all that is true and you still have issues, you potentially either have a Rhythm problem, or you have gear that doesn't fit your motion\loading.

As Requested, Video Clips
 

Edz, here are videos of my swing, I posted them on Youtube,

Driver Face On
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CX2Jt-tfV9k

Driver Down the Line
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LTbHOrCkaAY

Iron Down the Line
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZ8f9rG2Qrw


Any help anyone, any drills I should work on, Please??

Fine Tuning
 

Really nice swing Jamnet. Nothing to be ashamed of there.

The first thing I noticed with your driver face-on was your setup. Your shoulders are very level.

With your right hand lower on the shaft than the left, there should be a slight tilt rightward in your shoulders at setup.

Should assist with better hip action and axis tilt on the downswing.

A very nice motion there Jamnet. A couple things I see. First, you are having a chin/shoulder collision on the backswing with the driver which tends to pull your head off of center.

A slight swivel of the chin to your right will give your shoulders more room to turn 'under' the chin. You can see by the right foot's finish that you are round housing as a result - the right shoulder needs to go more down plane.

That leads to a fair amount of a snare - the bob. A focus on a more stable center should help a lot. Check your knee\hip action as well. The more stable the knee/hip motion (pivot), the easier it is to maintain your center.

More focus on the pressure points in the hands, and a stable center. The rest is in great shape. Very nice work.

I ain't no teacher but this is what my untrained eye sees . . .

I agree with Edz you got some Bob issues . . . but I think they stem from your knee action. You left knee is "buckled" . . . if you look at that bunch of leaves just behind your head it's pretty much even with your melon at address . . . but into the ball you are WAY down. Check out your knees . . .

I like the way you move the club . . . but with that knee action you have to be moving your Low Point around too much to be consistent.

I'd say get your head where you want it at fix and try to leave it there. You need to feel more "left" and "posted up" on your left leg . . . like it's straightening.

With that knee action I'd say you'll have a hard time getting your down and you low point infront of the ball. You need to feel more "left" and "on top" of it.

Thanks
 

Bagger, EdZ and 12 Piece Bucket,
Thanks for your comments and analysis of my swing. You made really interesting, insightful and helpful observations and I will definitely work on them in my upcoming practice sessions.
Thanks again

swing
 

I would say you take the club back outside and in a manner that sets you up for an over the top downswing. For that reason and maybe many others- your subconscious correction (improper) has been to flex the knees during the startdown/downstroke to prevent rotation and offset the backswing problem. In addition, as you finish the backswing and segway into the downswing- you get well to your left side with the upper body- again to help prevent the pulled shot, etc. .

I would see the body motion as an effect and go about correcting it as such. I wouldn't think about holding your center still etc. The body motion is an effect- you need to understand the cause.

Mr. Kelley had an article in Golf Magazine in the early 80's. Of course, the magazine changes things by the time it makes it to print but before that - his description of Bobby Clampett's Downstroke may shed some light on your stroke.

"Bobby is in a bit of a bind here because his left shoulder instead of his right shoulder moved downward. But he can and does recover in time for release. A common present-day misconception is surfacing here. That is a partial, preliminary weight shift through knee motion instead of hip motion which disrupts the on plane start down shoulder turn essential to establishing the precise direction of both the hands and the clubhead.........."

Finally, my best advice would be this "I wouldn't look for advice from Bucket or myself" - that's just wrong! And for some reason even after that advice - you're thinking that taking such advice sounds like a good idea- SEE A DOCTOR- and I'm not talking GSED!

P.S. Bucket- You've been reading too many stack and tilt articles!!:eyes:

I don't know nothing about no stack and tilt . . . was that a typo? I'm more of a Stacked and Packed reader (not much reading to do there though).