Which first?
 

Which is first to learn, "swing" or "hit"? Why?

Whichever suits you best based on your natural tendencies.
I would say that most people have a bit of both and either need to add some element or eliminate something to achieve a true hit or swing .So whichever feels easiest to the individual -you don't need to learn both.

When my guys and gals work on the Basic Motion Curriculum, I ask them to do both hitting and swinging. Then I ask them to choose the one they liked the most. Some hit some swing. It gets funny though when moving into acquired motion. Some change right off the bat. Got any thoughts on that one?

I think that the simple basic motion shot is easier to perform as a hit. You can get a really crisp strike and compression with accumulator 1 acting as it does in acquired and total motion hitting.

The swing in basic motion is a bit different IMO- it requires the left arm pull ( minor basic stroke) which differs from acquired motion swinging where you have enough accumlator 2 and 3 to uncock on plane and feel a swing that feels like a total motion swing. The recent changes i have played around with include really uncocking on plane ... i think this is the key to swinging... seeing Yoda videos on that ...great.

I'd say most have a "natural" preference . . . I've seen dudes that just can't make their elbow go to Pitch Basic . . . so maybe they should Hit right from the jump.

If the person is a definite Swinger, once they get Swinging down to an acceptable level, they should learn Hitting? Why because learning to Hit solidifies the understanding, maintenace and dependence on Alignments. Mr. Kelley said that the Swinger that learns to Hit will be that much better of a Swinger by learning to Hit.

Interesting Bucket, did he say why?

Certainly a question loaded for opinion.

For the masses I'd say definitely swinging first. There is more that YOU are in charge of executing when hitting - YOU must do all manually. This dictates more time to learn and apply - no centrifugal force to help you out.

And Yoda said Kelley said you could sleep and swing.

If you have the time and desire, I can't see where it would make a difference.

Bagger?
 

Bagger,
Since He's at 2156 posts I'm just curious when the "Senior Member" label converts to "Psycho Member"? I mean - he is already there- don't you think you should give him credit where credit has been earned?

Some students naturally roll the hands and others simply do not feel that-ever. I think if a student has no natural turn/roll in their Hands- show them to push the whole club.

The biggest difference is in how the hands work in the stroke. Does the student use his left arm/pivot to pull the outsdie of the 'wheel' (Standard Left Wrist Action) or does the student his his right arm to push on a spoke of the wheel (single Left Hand action)?

Build a motion around the Left Wrist Action and you have a decent beginning to a G.O.L.F. Stroke.

There is a "I Have No Life" usergroup we can put him in. But he has this "secret life" he thinks we don't know about. The photos have been circulating on the internet for a few months now.

Both
 

I've made a concerted effort to move toward hitting over the last 3 weeks. Almost all my practice time in that period was spent "hitting" shots and I was having some excellent range sessions. I decided to take it to the course and despite how I might be scoring, I was going to stay with the "hit". I struggled a little in the first couple of recreational rounds I used it in, but my scoring wasn't much different than it had been this last month or so.

Day 1 of a club championship last weekend and I was committed to staying with the hitting motion. I realized it probably wasn't the smartest decision but I've been in a scoring funk anyway and I wanted to see if I could execute hitting under more pressure. I was having decent results (some good, some bad - mainly with the longer clubs) but after 14 holes decided I needed to switch back to "swinging" for the balance of the round before I shot myself totally out of the tournament. I can tell you that the "swinging drives" I hit on 15, 16, 17, and 18 were the best I'd hit in months. I attribute that almost solely to the fact that the time I'd spent on hitting helped me "crystalize" some swinging concepts that were foggy or just not understood.

CG

Does he actually have a job?
I do know that he hasn't responded to my earlier question so he must do something when not posting&C or:golf: we already know he likes a bit of this :dance:

Sure did . . . he said that the Hitter is SOLELY reliant on his Alignments and the Machine structure. He said that you could Swing in your sleep because you just crank the gryoscope and just hang on. The Hitter must control every element with regards to Alignments and also Acceleration control. Hitting is harder to learn . . . but once you learn it . . . you just set your Alignments and nothing moves. Then when you go back to Swinging you have CF on your side AND you have the precision Alignments that you have learned from Hitting. With Swinging you can get away with all kinds of stuff. The Right Forearm doesn't HAVE TO be on Plane. You can flatten the Right Wrist and even let your #1 Pressure Point come off the club ala Vijay Singh. You think you can hit without your Right Forearm supporting and driving the shaft??? Hell naw ain't happening.

CF and the Flail will cover up alot of alignment issues . . . BUT when you bring the Alignments you learned from Hitting back to Swinging you're a WAY better Swinger.

You joining the Mike O Bagger tag team??? I met you man . . . you better start smoking dope you got too many brain cells to hang with that squadron. I had to call the paramedics for Mike O today he got black jelly beans stuck in his nose and ears. Beware of the pair with stained underwear.

Janitor
 

Bucket,
I haven't seen you in over a day. I thought it would be easier to reach you here. I know you've been telling everyone that you sell insurance but don't you think you should really tell them the truth, that you're a janitor at the home here. There really is nothing to be ashamed about. But that's not why I posted- I've got a couple of messes and you need to come down and clean them up or you are going to lose your job! Oh ya! DrewitGolf is back - they put him in the room across the hall from mine- he threw the soup of the day all over his room- you'll need to clean that up also when you're down on our wing.

Aligned Swingers
 

Great post, Bucket. Thanks!

:salut:

Has somebody been trying to smoke beanpods again???

Great, great post. Says so much - in your own words; better understanding for all.

Not done practicing Throw-Out without Throw-Away :sad2: !

Homer felt most amateurs learned swinging because most people feel and are used to centrifugal force first.



Patrick

12,

Please clarify. This is a reall interesting comment.

When did he say it, what context?

Thanks,
Patrick

He didn't say it in a book . . .

But think about it . . . if you are Hitting you are PUSHING so you have to have the right forearm in line to support what you are pushing. When you Swing you are pulling so it's much more dependent on Pivot than Triceps. Not saying that having the Forearm off plane is the best way . . . just that you can. CF doesn't care where your forearm is . . . .

Back in August I said I gave my students the choice between hitting and swinging when learning basic motion.

Most chose hitting....and I wondered why? Most, being right handed, felt more control as they use this hand for many other things in life (don't go there bucket).

I'm now finding that impact alignments, tracing the plane line, extensor action and lag pressure point pressure are learned easier when hitting during basic motion. Impact bag results also kind of prove it.

By educating the right hand first there is the tendency of less flipping when moving to the next step of acquired motion. At this stage is when I introduce the differences to give them the choice.

I've been finding that turn, uncock and roll is generally harder to learn than drive loading. Also, once the right hand is educated it is much easier to educate the left.

So, with a beginning golfer I now say that hitting is the easier path when using basic motion unless there is a medical problem that would warrant learning swinging first.

However, when working with non beginners I look for their natural tendency and go from there.

And thanks to you guys I can now teach both. Thanks and Happy New Year!!!

I won't go "there" . . . this time . . . but your post is an astute one . . .

I can only say thanks again to you guys who have helped me so much!

Btw, what is Aloha Mr. Hand about? Haven't lived in the States for 32 years....out of the loop.

Fast Times At Ridgemont High . . . a classic movie . . . rent it and you'll understand . . . .

Great post.
Which to learn first? Hitting or swinging?
I think the standard answer is both. You won’t fully understand one without the other.

The #3 pressure point directly opposed to the primary lever assembly vs. #3 pressure point directly opposed to the secondary lever assembly. Standard wrist action takeaway vs. Single wrist action takeaway? Differing elbow locations? How could you know one without knowing the other.

Horizontal vs. Angled Hinging. How can one fully understand sequenced release vs. simultaneous release without understanding both?

Both, hitting and swinging have a pulling feel at startdown.

You start by Switting. Your first swing is a mixture of both. And many more swings after that one. To know each component, you need to know their differences. To know compatibility of components, one must understand why component combinations are incompatible. Cause-effect.

I have been Swinging on Acquired and Full motion, and Hitting on short strokes and putting. A great combination.

Ying and Yang.

Voice of Authority
 

You've learned your lessons well, Daryl. Thank you for sharing with others the fruits of your labor.

i'm starting to think homer was omniscient !
 

yoda knows that the genius of the hitting technique allows for the fundamental impulse of steering and hitting at the ball to be harnessed into an uncompensated golf stroke. "steering" the clubhead STRAIGHT on the angle of approach and by the right forearm and "hitting" by the right tricep pushing through impact make this possible.

since most right-handed golfers are right-handed and the function of the right forearm is the second secret of golf (it regulates clubshaft control directly and cluhead control indirectly) the steering and hitting impulse allows for these geometrical controls along with powering the stroke all by the right arm.

what a genius you are homer kelley !!!! how could only one person write that book and not an entire team of geniuses ?

wait, before i go on gushing over homer , he could be crticized ((he seems to be under fire a lot these days by the "objective truth"seekers( i don't think they would find this phrase redundant since they are so committed to the truth )) for not having found a way to control the clubface from the right side.
but i ask you; should homer kelley be criticized for the golfer having two arms and two wrists ?

happy new year everyone,
your comrade in arms

p.s. yoda, if you do not kick me off the site after three posts i would like to thank you , as this happened to me recently on a teaching pro fansite. is that a record?

Good stuff!:eyes:

I believe Homer felt that, when he was teaching, he would go with the person's natural tendencies. I also think he felt that most people would have a natural inclination to swinging - that most people could feel/manipulate centrifugal force, but, that hitting was easier.

Not sure if this helps or not.....

Patrick