Why fade?
 

As I read this forum and other places, it seems that natural ball flight of a hitter is usually fade. But why is it?

I thought a swing path is down, out and forward at the impact point regardless of whether a golfer is a hitter or swinger. If this assumption is wrong, then what I am going to say below is a moot point.

I am assuming a initial ball flight depends on a club face. If a swing path is in to out and a club face is closed relative to the swing path, I guess a ball flight is either push-draw or pull-hook (or push-hook?) depending on how closed the club face is. If a club face is open relative to a swing path, I guess a ball flight is push-fade (or push-slice).

So if a hitter employ in-to-out with a angled hinge, does it mean a hitter usually hit push-fade?

Is a hitter's swing path slight out to in?

Thanks,
DK

Wow DK great question, thanks for asking it Im looking forward to seeing some information on this.

Here is my best guess:

-Push fade tendency due to Angled Hinging which itself is a product of the physics of Hitting.

-the down, out and forward of three dimensional impact for straight away ball flight is not "cross line". Assuming the point of contact between clubface and ball remains intact, as if welded together, the ball will leave at right angles to the face angle at separation and without enough side spin to curve the ball. Making Angular force (such as in golf) similar or equal to Linear Force (such as pool cue and ball). I think.

Welcome to LBG, DK11111. Thats a heck of a first question. Chapter 2 is a tough read but worth the effort.

I found this wonderful forum a few weeks ago, and since then I am quite absorbed in reading posts and slowly digesting them. I found OB's (and many others') posts very informative, and I thank for them very much.

Back to the topic:

So is push-fade, not fade, natural ball flight of a hitter? I assume that fade, for a right-handed golfer, is ball flight in which a ball start on a target line and deviate to the right just a little bit.

I think I am understanding what you say here. So is out in "down, out and forward" illusion created by the fact that our eyes are above the plane? If our eyes were positioned somewhere on the (3D) plane (for example, from the highest point of the swing plane(or radius)), movement of a club head we see should be down and forward (no OUT). On the 2 dimensional plane line, a club head is moving straight; am I correct? Is this why you said "not 'cross line'"?

Thanks

(My head is spinning. :eyes: I guess I need to buy the yellow book soon since TGM becomes interesting to me more and more.)

A Hitter's Slice of Life
 

With Horizontal (Closing Only) and Vertical (Layback only) Hinging, both Club Face and Club Head rotate around the same Hinge Pin (both are Centerd Motions). Because Angled Hinging produces both Layback and Closing at the same time, it is an uncentered motion and has a built in Slice tendency. Simply close the Clubface at Impact Fix (more for longer clubs, less for shorter clubs) to avoid this and you will be a happy camper.

Drew,

Very nice post, it turned on a light bulb for me...

Since becoming a hitter, I still set up with my clubface a little open to my target line and hit push draws, my preferred ball flight. I suspect that even though I am hitting, I'm using 4 barrels and employing a Horizontal Hinge, hence, the fade is not my stock ball flight.

Make sense?

Thanks,
Kevin

Open and Shut Case
 

Kevin,

It is a matter of choice, but the Hitters natural motion will produce Angled Hinging. You, my friend, are over-ridng this natural action and indeed have to when you set up with an open clubface. Otherwise, Fore Right!

Thanks Drew

This "uncentered" business has been a foggy notion for me. Still is. Would you mind elaborating or pointing me to the appropriate section in the book. 2-J-3 mentions it in regard to the Angle of Approach I believe.

Regards
Ob

Recall of the 7th edition
 

O.B.

My books is at the pro shop. Try 2-J-1. I think it is there.

DK your geometry is good, I can tell. Dont worry about your noggin, this is the place for "head spinning" , my brain is normally mushed like one of those poor NASA guys riding the rocket centrifuge.

The "Out" of Three Dimensional Impact is very real as is the "Down" and the "Forward" of course. By virtue of the fact that we are traveling an Inclined Plane. Picture it from a down the line point of view, your clubhead could not be on an Inclined Plane and travel Down without traveling Out (towards the plane line) at the same time. A truly horizontal plane would have forward and out, no down. A vertical plane would have no out. So in regard to the Out, just go Down all the way and the Out will take care of itself given your plane of motion.

Thanks Drew,

One compensation followed by another to make up for it. Not good... Back to the drawing board! :salut:

Kevin

I think this is the reason for fade (or push fade?) of hitters, yet I cannot understand what is written because of my lack of TGM knowledge; I will slowly digest this notion.

In the mean time, I will follow your suggestion of closing a clubface. But how should I close the clubface at impact fix: by using strong left grip or rolling a left forearm or something else?

Thanks,
DK

Thanks for explanation. Now I understand the "out" part. But it leads me to one more question: why is the on-plane swing not "cross-line" at the impact point?

Thanks,
DK

Rolling the grip in the hands. So situation normal except for slightly closed face (to a degree you arrive at via trial and error).

A Victory Grip
 

Agree; rotate the grip of the club counterclockwise within the Left Hand without changing the Left Hand.

Crossed Up
 

The Thrust or Action can be cross-line, but the motion is on-line.

As long as the ball is hit before low point, it is considered an In-Side Out Impact, but not an Inside Out Stroke unless the Plane Line and Line of Flight are not one in the same.

It is in a manner of speaking. Although In TGM speak "Cross Line" is reserved for a different consideration, more on that later. To your point about straight away ball flight, for balls addressed back of low point the clubhead will travel an arc (assuming arc of approach method) that extends down and out to low point. Post low point it will travel a similar arc up and in. Interestingly the divot will look straight at the hole. Although I have noticed that if you turn the divot over you can see a little arc to it. If you were to swing without this Down Out and Forward , Arc of Approach and instead "steer" your clubhead straight towards the hole , your divot would point left of the hole. This sadly, is by far the most common divot direction and no doubt due to false logic about swinging straight at the hole. See "steering" when you buy your book.

Oh ya, both "on line" and "cross line" are On Plane really, just different planes. For straight away ball flight, "on-line" despite the Out, Down, Forward you still trace (point at) a straight Plane Line. Whereas for curved flight you will construct a different plane, Cross Line to the original. A new Plane for you to travel, with a new Plane Line for you to "trace" and having its own associated Out, Down , Forward Club Head Orbit , Three Dimensional Impact (which is fantastic to feel).

Sorry Drew you type faster than I do, didnt mean to step on your reply. Let me know if I got it wrong there.

Wow, thanks for the replies everyone.

I will work on understanding what is written in this thread; what a way of starting the new year! :)

Happy new year to everybody,
DK

I'm the rare breed of hitter who draws the ball.

I set up with a slightly closed club face and bend the plane line to the right, giving me a draw flight. If I want to hit a fade, I set up with a square face and on a straight plane line.

Thanks for the closed clubface 411!
 

I saw it reading version 6 today.

Over the weekend, I was trying to figure out why I kept pushing :crybaby: many shots right like a lazer beam. My face was square to the target. It even happened with my short irons. I was upset.

However, when I simply drove my fixed impact into the ball in a straight down motion, the ball flew straight until I put it too far back in the stance.

When I teed the ball up for the driver and came down to close to it I produced the dreaded hook. So I teed the ball down (well below the top of the club) beehind my front shoulder and produced a bb on purpose. Even thought the ground was wet, that shot skidded about 20 yards after it hit. About 230 yards. :laughing9

Did I mention how much fun I am having with this? :)

Tomorrow, I will hit my drive off the deck and 1/2 inch high. I'll also try to underhand throw/hit it straight up to the moon for yucks! Keep you posted.

Patrick