These guys are hitters, right?
 

These guys are hitters, right? Any other PGA/Euro hitter out there? I'm particularly interested too in those who hit far, as I want to see how they generate more power. Any longdrive guys who are hitters ... they all kind of look like swingers to me? Thanks. :)

Byron Nelson


Arnold Palmer


Boo Weekley


JB Holmes


Chi Chi Rodriguez

It's no wonder palmer won all those majors . . . . beautiful.

We've got millions saying to "weld" the Upper Left Arm to the Chest. OMG. Some go so far as to say that Moe also "welded" his upper left arm.

Arnold Palmer is the complete opposite. He idiosyncratically leads with his Left Elbow as though he's some Italian guy making his way to the Bus.

Is "Arnold Palmer" a "Hitter"? Although more importantly, a "Legend", a "Champion", and possibly the greatest "Ambassador" to the game to ever live.

With all due respect; AP; 10-2-D, Angle-Hinge Swinger, Chicken-Winger. :)

Are any of the above golfers, Hitters?

Hitting Pattern: is a Stroke Pattern within which, Straightening the Right Arm (by triceps muscular thrust) directly "Uncocks the Left Wrist" (override CF)

Swinging Pattern: is a Stroke Pattern within Which, Centrifugal Force is harnessed to Uncock the Left Wrist.

Chicken-Winging: is a compensation to avoid Horizontal Hinging.

Bucket: is packaging for KFC 12 Piece dinner.:laughing9

Or...they are resisting CF by preserving the bend in the right elbow, producing an angled hinge?

Perhaps a combination of both - partial swing and hit??? Can't one load the left wrist at the top via #3PP and switch to a right arm thrust hit on the way down??

Doesn't it look like a swinger's start down, but a muscular thrust of the right arm dominating everything else?

D, Im so with you on the weld thing, what good is a #4 that doesnt fly off afterall?


As far a Arnie goes.......... I see some Float Loading, which Homer labelled as Hit or Swing and then a pronounced laying on of the right arm. Im thinking Four Barrel. That's one super late release given the immense application of muscular force. What a combo. No wonder he drove the first green at Cherry Hills, 346 yards or whatever, with a marsh mellow ball and a persimmon driver.

The difference between Hitting and Swinging eventually boils down to which force Uncocks the Left Wrist. The two forces available are Centrifugal Force and Muscular Effort.

KEY CONCEPTs:

1. Hitting and Swinging differ by which force moves the Secondary Lever (Golfclub).

2. ONLY the Right Arm Can Hit. A Swing are made with the Left Arm or the Right Arm.

One can only Hit if the Right Wrist remains LEVEL through the Release and Impact Intervals. If the Right Wrist is Cocked and subsequently Uncocks during these Intervals, then, no matter how much force is used or whether the Force is Right Triceps or Right Forearm Thrust or Both, the Stroke is a SWING.

With the Right Hand off the Club, look at the Left Wrist Uncocking, and readily see the Clubhead surface Speed Increasing. With the Right Hand and club only, with its Fixed Level Right Wrist, the Right Forearm and Club form a "single unified assembly". It doesn't Uncock. If you use Right Triceps Thrust (Acceleration) to drive this FIXED assembly, it is solely responsible for moving the Clubhead. Then, Uncocking the Left Wrist serves only to accommodate the Straightening of the Right Arm. Centrifugal Force is Avoided by using a Straight Line Thrust (The easiest way to avoid CF is by moving in a straight line) across the line.

So, to be a Hitter, or be considered a Hitter, the Level Right Wrist must remain Fixed. Ask the Golfer if he Cocks his Right Wrist. That's easy enough. That's the Acid test. If his Level Right Wrist Remains fixed, then your guess is as good as mine. If you Cock and Uncock the Right Wrist, you can be a Swinger, Switter (Combo Hitter-Swinger, bad), Flinger (Right Arm Swinger) or Dinger (you guessed it), but not a Hitter. :laughing9



If he Cocks and Uncocks his Right Wrist, then he's a Swinger. Otherwise I can't tell from this sequence. Whether that's Forearm Driving as part of the Power Package for a Swinger, or Triceps muscle of a Hitter, I couldn't say. I can't even identify if he's using a sequenced or simultaneous release. I wish I knew enough to be sure one way or the other, but I don't. :(

Interesting stuff Daryl.

I see some Dragging in Startdown, he does not have a Hitters Top , he is not aligned for Drive Loading, interestingly. He is using his pivot and the Drag Loading Downswing Sequence of 6-M-1. But he appears to my eye to turn it over to his Right Arm for Release. A Right ARm Throw. The Bat. That slightly bent left arm near impact tells me his center is no longer the left shoulder but the right elbow. The chicken wing a blocking action in an effort to prevent the right side from overpowering the flat left wrist. Is he pushing or pulling with his right arm? Its close to Right Arm Swinging isnt it. But Id say pushing, final answer.

But like you I must admit that .............only his hair dresser knows for sure. And Arnie is the easy one too..............lets try Jack next.


D are you saying Swingers cock their Right Wrist? An off plane motion of the Right Forearm Flying Wedge?

Interesting and true.




Swingers should not Cock their Right Wrist. No one should. I'm saying that anyone who does cock their Right Wrist can not be a Hitter, even if they think they are.

Swingers can get away with cocking their right wrist and still be called a swinger, but not hitters.

It doesn't matter if one Swings or Hits. Both are equally valid. Uncompensated stroke patters for both are included in Chapter 12. They are the goals.

Hey man . . . AWESOME sequence work . . . could you put up the Hogan and the Snead sequences with the grid next to Palmers?

That'd be very interesting to study . . . . Thanks!

B

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rIBHnO6nSq4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=arcH45D2n70

@ Daryl,

Great stuff, man. I learn a lot from reading your posts, even the old ones on the board. Thanks.

I'm wondering if there's a technique to adding more power when using a hitter's pattern, or is it just about building up the muscles for the thrust? Should the pivot be more forceful? I'm thinking a bigger turn won't help that much.

It seems like swingers get effortless power from centrifugal force ... from the rotation. If I understand it correctly, hitters start driving down slowly and accelerate with the thrust. It's such a short motion to generate power.

I've seen Lawrence Taylor on Trumps World of Golf, and it looks like he has almost no backswing, but he pounds the golfball real far. He is a big dude, though.

Also, if you're trying to get more power, is it a good idea to try to speed up the getting your pressure point #1 from point A to point B as fast as you can?

Thanks. :)

@ 12 piece bucket,

Cool links, man. I haven't seen that one of Sam Snead. That guy's real smooth.

On the grid thing, maybe another time (I'm feeling a bit lazy, hehehe). The Snead one looks a bit more difficult, as the film keeps zooming in and out. :D

I'm guessing Hogan and Snead were definitely swingers.

Thanks Kamandi.

Hitting and Swinging are equally valid and can provide distance enough for sub-par rounds every time.

"O.B.Left" "Hits" the ball very long. Ted's the same way. He Hits the Ball 300 yards or better. They Hit the Ball far because they execute the swing so well and have exceptional impact alignments.

I might be wrong, but I think that O.B. uses more of a Sweep Release (starts unloading slowly from the Top) and Ted delays his Release.

Im not that long, certainly not Ted Fort long anyways. Teds startdown is slow , his Release is late, almost Snap and violent. He sort of sneaks his Right Shoulder down close to the ball and then blammo. A Right ARm throw like a pitchers fast ball. I do tend to Sweep Release, especially when Im hitting. Last week I was Swinging and loving it, automatic, or non auto Left Wrist Throw, a later Sweep Release, it almost felt like I was Float Loading all the way down and into the ball. Hit a couple of Mike Austin Flammers, that later release really adds some power , effortless power. If I could bottle one swing that would probably be it. Even my sand wedge was going 20 yards farther, it was effortless, a new and weird sensation for me.

This week my back is bad and Im back to Hitting. When its really sore Im three Accumulator Hitting, drive loading , a Right ARm Throw, The Bat Basic Stroke (there is fanning and bending not just a right arm in line extension........which I personally dont like at all , chipping , putting, whatever). When my back is good I do goof with the Four Accumulator Hitting Pattern. An addition of Pivot Power to the Hitters Pattern. Drag Loading or Float Loading then a Shoulder Throw all done super slowly, smoothly and then a Right ARm Throw and hard but late. The later the better. The Float Loading is done by the Bending Right Elbow in Startdown. It loads the #3pp at the knuckle. Some days I feel like I thrust the Left Arm with the Right Arm Throw which may put me in the Right ARm swinging category , somedays I feel like I just Right ARm Throw the entire Primary Lever, a classic hitting procedure. Some days I even feel like I throw just the club, like an on plane uncocking of the Left WRist but done with the Right ARm as opposed to the Left WRist. That last one isnt in the book , I dont think. The Right Elbow pushing the #3pp at the knuckle on the top of the shaft, sort of like a Left Wrist Throw would. Thats a discussion best reserved for the Lab maybe.

Three Accumulator Hitting doesnt need the Swinging from the Feet , 6-M-1 Downstroke Sequence for power. When my back is bad, I cant get my pivot working properly, my right shoulder down close to the ball and so I just by pass it. The Right Shoulder hangs back and I thrust against it. The feeling of the Right Shoulder moving down and through is great, I just cant do it all the time.

They all look pretty much the same to the eye. When Im looking at film of my own swing even I have a hard time telling what Throw Im using. I have little signals I do to the camera so I can tell them apart. But I dont normally return to a Hitters Top like K. J. or David Toms. I bet Homer would give me a hard time about that actually. He liked people to Load in manner consistent with their application of Thrust. Drag Loading the #3pp at the knuckle for CF swings, Drive Load from Top at the first joint. Im mis matched at times.

Homer really wanted us to keep things well defined and separated for consistency. Drive loading or Drag. Pushing or pulling, muscular thrust or CF. He saw no need for Four Accumulators when you could just take more club. He didnt like Dragging the left and then laying it on with the right as the arms had different orbits, different centers, different cirlces and were therefore somewhat in conflict. The driver being the only club where you might possibly need an additional source of power for specialty shots.

You can maintain the bend in the Right ARm for a long time but it must straighten eventually. You need to get to Both Arms Straight to complete the clubheads orbit. Homer is quoted as saying: " you just dont have much of a swing until you have a piston action to the right arm". I take this to mean either a passive or active straightening of the right arm, and not necessarily in a straight, in line , push basic manner. Getting to Both ARms Straight is so vital to proper compression to my mind. If you havent realized this yet, try it out in little chips or pitches and see for yourself. Hitters have an easier time of accomplishing this given their active straightening.

Mr Palmer looks like a meat eating Four Barrel' er to me. Mickey Wright, even well into retirement used to study film of all the pros swings. She loved the CF Hogan , Knudson type swings. When someone asked her about Palmer , she was quoted as saying........"Oh Arnie.........his swing is well...........he's just so darn strong".

@ Daryl, thanks again. I was thinking that maybe hitting just didn't provide as much distance as swinging, but I guess a hitter can get good distances. On a related note, I only recently found out how to hit my driver properly with the hitter's aim point approach, and it's getting some good distance.

@ O.B.Left, wow, learned a ton from your post, thanks.

I used to use a swinging pattern, and I used to intentionally try to hold the wrist lag until the latest moment, and it used to get me a lot of distance. At the time, I didn't really understand or know about the other sources of lag, or the power accumulators, or the pressure points.

I've moved to a hitting pattern, and it's made me a purer ball striker, but I've lost a lot of distance. I did read about the pivot driving the right shoulder down the plane, but your post confirms it.

I really like your idea of everything going slowly and smoothly, then a hard, right arm throw, the later the better. I was experimenting with speeding up the throw from point A to point B, but it was too wild, and I wasn't consistently accelerating at the right point, maybe because I was starting too fast at too high a point. I guess the right or better way is to slowly drive the right shoulder down the plane, maintaining the right elbow bend as long as possible, then a hard thrust at the latest possible moment, releasing power accumulator #1. It sounds like it could be repeatable, even with the hard thrust, since the distance from the right palm to the ball would now be much closer. I'll definitely work on it.

Again, thanks guys. Much appreciated. :)

Btw, I'm assuming with the right shoulder driving down the plane through the use of the pivot, that the inner right leg is driving, while the left leg is (violently?) turning the left hip out of the way. Does that sound about right?

Hmmm, seems trying to turn my left hip violently is clashing with the more deliberate motions of the rest of the body.

I dont know, its a bit of point of contention maybe. Personally, I feel that if the 6-m-1 Downstroke Sequence is a true "Sequence" then by the time it has worked its way to the Shoulders ............the Hips are slowing down and not in a position where they can pull. They are moving, they may still be leading somewhat, temporarily, but their movement is really Motion as opposed to Work.

But, that's just me. My take on Homer's Pivot Train.

If your Hitting and using a Shoulder Throw, Drag Loading you're Four Barrel Hitting. With all of its complexities. Drag then Thrust. Id work on Three Barrel Hitting till you have that mastered, maybe be able to alternate Swinging and Three Barrel hitting before you try Four Barrel Hitting. You need to be able to go back and forth between Drag and Drive Loading , Left Hand Throw vs Right Arm before you can employ a hybrid mix of the two. You need to be able to distinguish the unique identities and feels prior to mixing them together.

Palmers "swing"
 

It doesn't seem that AP did a lot of instruction but he did one historic piece - A 2 - 33 rpm album with booklet labled "BY ARNOLD PALMER ...NARRATED WITH CHRIS SCHENKEL" this was a promo by Ford Motor Co. and contains a "good" instructional presentation on the Golf swing in palmers own voice. This is likely the best description of what he does. My copy is in the atic and I no longer have a turntable set up so I won't look for it now. If one of you historians has a copy and listens/reads this album As I recall U will get a lot of clues as to palmers "swing".

The Bear

PS. There was a tv program called CHALLENGE GOLF in the early 60's. One epesode at Torrey Pines with Palmer, Player, Sneed and Sanders . I "Kind of" used that show as a comparitive model because TP was one of my local courses in my early golfing years. I would like to refind that show on dvd or tape.

Great advice, man, thanks again. I'll work on that.

Recently, I tried to make a bigger backswing, but I got messed up, as I think my hand wedge angles broke down, and pp#1 wasn't properly aligned for the hit. I guess, based on your post, what I would do is to initially use drag loading (using pp#4,2,&3) up to a point to set pp#1 up so that it is properly aligned for the hit.

The cool think about simple hitting is that it's such an uncomplicated motion; when I lose my way, I just get a sand wedge and using only the right hand drive it down, out, and forward into the ground, and I'd find my swing again. Adding a swinging component at the start-down does make it more complicated ... it feels a little more timing dependent. I'll be careful not to add some bad habits while trying to develop this. :D

Your logic about the hips sound right, plus the overly active pulling motion of the left hip just didn't feel right.

Anyway, thanks again for all the info; this will help me towards a better swing. :)

Your sandwedge may be a slightly shorter swing, stopping at Top instead of End, a very good thing for a Drive Loader. Its a straight line from Top to the Aiming Point.

Yup, that's actually what I've been working on a lot lately, going from End to Top without losing my way. I'm gonna get there. :)

Hey Kamandi

See 6-E-2 THE AIMING POINT CONCEPT. Its the Hands that we direct in a straight line at and through the Aiming Point.

Now I know your going to say, "straight line? What the...." but read point #1. Also, Thrust is always Straight Line by definition.

See also 10-23-A and compare it to 10-23-C where going to End requires a "retracing" of the Arc from Top to End prior to Thrusting. Notice too if you havent already the shadowy arrow that represents the Direction of Thrust towards the Aiming Point which is assumed to be the ball for simplicity. That arrow is easy to miss but its in all those photos. From Top it is Down and Out! Not Forward, not at all. No Sir.

This is the alternate procedure to Tracing the Straight Line Base Line with the #3 Pressure Point. Which has an element of Forward to it. If your missing some Down try the Aiming Point Procedure. One of my favourite sentences in the book is from GEOMETRY OF THE CIRCLE, 2-N-0 CLUBHEAD LINE OF FLIGHT: ".......Both the Lag Pressure Point and the Clubshaft must so relate to the selected Plane Line OR Angle of Approach -to the geometric or the visual-but don't try to Monitor both at the same time because, though equally dependable , they need not be identical in execution AS LONG AS THE CLUBSHAFT HOLDS A STRAIGHT LINE RELATIONSHIP TO A STRAIGHT LINE--POINTING AT A STRAIGHT LINE....." I like the part about them not needing to be identical in execution.........cause they sure dont seem identical to me.

(Me personally, I have my aiming point 2" ahead of the ball towards the target for a wedge shot and 2" my side of the ball for a driver..........its a way of managing the time required to make a longer shaft switch ends and works like a dream for the driver).


PS Read 8-6 THE TOP. "A static period of alignment and relationship corrections until the deliberate aiming of the #3pp....."

Nice post, O.B. Left; I think I understand what you're getting at.

I guess my understanding of the term forward is wrong; I just assumed it meant the clubhead is always moving forward in the downswing ... up-in-back to down-out-forward up-in-forward -- whether in a hit or a swing type motion. I guess I don't really understand how the term forward is used in TGM.

On the straight line aim point concept, I do use that (ever since seeing Yoda's youtube vid on that), and like you, I aim more forward of the ball with the shorter irons, and I aim slightly behind the ball with the driver; I imagine a straight line from my hand to the golf ball. On hard-hardpan, I'll usually have the aim point at around the center of the ball or just a tad behind it, so that I get it more cleanly, plus it's easier on the hands/wrists.

I have experimented with tracing the shaft where you feel it more in pp#3; I use that more when I want to try to keep the ballflight lower, as I can keep a delofted angle easier through this.

What I'm trying to understand more right now is what you've described, from an initial shoulder throw to a right arm thrust. I find it's easier to feel pp#4 tugging naturally; when I try to add pp#2, it sometimes dominates the movement, and I lose feel/control of the all important pp#1 or even the pa#1 altogether.

In your shoulder throw hit, do you actively use/feel pp#2&3, just before pp#1 dominates, or is the use/feel of pp#2&3 very passive?

Thanks again, man. :)

Is Charlie Hoffman a hitter?

To my very untrained eye that motion looked "hitter"-like. He certainly has the build...

yes, I would say so....he has a very short BS and finishes like a hitter w/ no full roll swivel.

Miller was commenting on his forearms and he really gives the ball a good "hit" ....something along those lines.

I trust Yoda or Lukes assesment more than Miller when it comes to classifying a person as hitter or swinger:laughing9

Miller knows some TGM. He studied with Ben back in the day.

cool, I didnt know that....

Awesome, OB!
 

Thanks! :)

I apologize if I am veering a bit of topic about this but does can anyone provide an explanation, and or show some still's as to why Boo Weekley's swing would be considered a hitters motion?