Hitters swing thoughts critique? I'll show you mine if you show me yours!
 

LOL.

I'm struggling to come up with swing thoughts to aid my hitting progress.

I have struggled with a fast start down, over the top move, and keeping my right shoulder moving down plane.

My current swing thought is to forget about the hips, forget about everything but the right arm to the right shoulder.

My start down is an attempt to get my right shoulder as close to my right foot as possible before I drive the right arm.

This keeps me from starting to drive too early and also gets my right shoulder in the proper position.


What do you guys think about that idea for a swing thought? What swing thoughts do you guys use?

:eyes:

Hi Grant,

Swing thoughts don't compensate for swing problems. Swing thoughts should be positive thoughts.

I don't want to be the one to tell you this; but, you're on the Elbow Plane; therefore, your Right Shoulder cannot "Directly" support your Right Arm Thrust while Hitting because your Right Shoulder is on a different Plane of Motion than your Hands.

Think of a Boxer throwing a Right Punch. He'll hit hardest when the Shoulder is behind the Hand. He can punch on a different Plane and often does, but it's not as powerful.

You need to adjust your Pivot.

searching
 

I am looking/searching for some examples of either a swinger or hitter that at impact is on the TSP and has the rffw on plane and has some #3 accumulator left. Anyone have some examples? Pictures? Diagrams?

The Bear

http://www.lynnblakegolf.com/forum/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=74372
 

First: It's in the Book and the Book is Based on the TSP. Hardly any mention of mechanics is given to the Elbow Plane.





Young guy, and older guy. The TSP is not age specific.






Diagram. The Elbow Plane and the TSP can be diagrammed.






The Ice Man. The Longest Ball Striker in the World. Most Long Drive Hitters use the TSP.




Another Person.





Another Diagram.





The Ice Man up Close. Notice that the Right Forearm is On Plane. It is 90 degrees to the Plane of the Left Arm Wedge. As it should be.




Look at the picture below and NOTICE that the heel of the Putter is raised above ground and the Shaft is more vertical than what you normally see. She is preparing to putt on the TSP as soon as she can see the Ball. The TSP is NOT Gender Biased.

Understand that for someone who has struggled with an over the top move and someone who has developed the bad habit of the shoulders moving around rather than down plane, they might need an exaggerated feel.

I do not doubt you for one second that a normal person would not want to feel like the shoulder is dropping to their knee/feet.

But for someone who hasn't ingrained the right shoulder down plane move and who's right shoulder is 100% of the time OVER the TSP, that might be just the feel they need.

Or do you disagree?

I disagree because there is no need to ingrain or force that feeling, motion, geometry or action. Believe me when I say that it is the automatic outcome of the properly aligned and executed pivot.

If your Right Shoulder and Hips are aligned properly, then your Right Shoulder will move Downplane, directly "Toward the BALL" like a bullet.

I know because I've experimented with different pivots thousands of times and I keep finding new ways to pivot. I experiment with different component variations daily .

As I see it, you appear to always rotate your shoulders to the right in an "around" fashion with your Left Shoulder moving around to the Right.

Do this experiment:

Set-up without a club. Move your right foot back 3-6" (more if you need) and center yourself for balance. Keep your head stationary and your Spine "On the Ball" and think of moving your arms like a "Windmill". Move your arms separately or together or both. Let your arms guide your shoulders and let your shoulders guide your hips and let your Hips "Bend" your knees. That is a Flat Backstroke Shoulder Turn. The one that you're doing is disruptively too Flat.

Notice now, that your Left Shoulder moved down and not around. The Left Shoulder has moved only a few inches. Also, you probably can't make more than a 3/4 backstroke (Flexibility).

Now, with this Hip and shoulder alignment, your right shoulder will move On Plane directly toward the Ball. Go as fast as you want during the downstroke.

Notice how freely that your right side opens up during the backstroke and how easy (no strain) it is to perform with the right hip out of the way and your hands taking a direct path to the top of the stroke.

Try it. If it works for you, and you like it, I'll tell you how to do it without moving your right foot backwards.

I really do appreciate what you are telling me, but this is near impossible to follow.

If I am understanding you correctly what you are saying is:

1: My back swing is too flat. I am on the elbow plane going back and my over the top move is an attempt to get up to the TSP.

2: I need to focus on getting my shoulders to move vertically in both directions.

3: I'm too flat with the shoulders going back.

4: I'm over the top because I'm attempting to not be too flat going forwards.


Where you are completely losing me is here:

That's kinda hard to follow.

You had me focused until the last picture. I'm not sure what the paragraph said there, but I agree with all of the diagrams above, so I'll just assume everything else was correct.

Personally, I think the OP is a swinger that needs some fix'in for a quick start down and out instead of down plane right shoulder.

It's tough to convert a swinger to a hitter. Been there done that.
It's a commitment and takes a lot of time to convert. It is nice to hit when needed though.

Ok I've pulled this quote out of the book because it seems as if this is what you are trying to get me to grasp........

Per 10-13-C: If the waist bend is exactly right a Rotated Shoulder Turn may also be On Plane in both directions a simplified equivalent to 10-13-A.

That seems like what I would want as a hitter, the least moving parts the better.

So the question is how much waist bend......

I started out as a swinger but I am not built for it.

I'm 6'5 285 and very muscular and not exactly the most flexible person in the world. I failed all but one portion of the TPI Flexibility test.

I have gotten a lot more flexible but I don't think swinging is in the cards for me.

I have all the time in the world (job not doing shit right now) so I can literally practice for 8 hours per day if necessary.

I just need to start getting these things squared away.

If I am understanding you correctly what you are saying is:

1: My back swing is too flat.
Your Backstroke is Aroundish.


I am on the elbow plane going back
Kind of, but that's irrelevant.

and my over the top move is an attempt to get up to the TSP.
No. Your over the top move is caused by your hips and shoulder alignment.


2: I need to focus on getting my shoulders to move vertically in both directions.
No. You need to stop going aroundish and use the Plane Line.


3: I'm too flat with the shoulders going back. Yes.

4: I'm over the top because I'm attempting to not be too flat going forwards.

You're over the Top because your shoulders and hips are aligned that way.



All that I'm asking you to do is to get into your address position without a club. Then, move your right foot back (away from the target line) a few inches or more. This will move your right hip out of the way so that your shoulders can turn without going around. Your spine will not move or sway or tilt. Your head should remain stationary. Lastly, move your hands to your right and up. Try to trace the Plane line.

This will re-align your shoulders and Hips and you will no longer come over the top.

It doesn't matter if you're a swinger or a hitter. Zone 1 needs to function properly for both.

http://img826.imageshack.us/img826/2935/plane.jpg

The one of the left is what we are going for where as I'm producing the one on the right.....

Hang on Daryl I'm about to post another picture for you to see.......

This is what I don't understand.

I have SLAVED on fixing my over the top problem but it has never gone away.

I have done avoidance drills for days, but nothing TRULY fixes it.

I don't understand how my shoulders and hips are aligned to be over the top.

Here is a video of me doing what I think you wanted me to do.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6qBSneZo-tQ

You are still going around.

Get away from that back board. Your right hip is not going back far enough.

Don't try to turn your shoulders. They will turn.


Stick with it for another 30 minutes. Keep the video flowing. You're going to get it soon.

let your right arm go. Work the arms separately.

I hope that the next video, you moved the right foot back 3-6 inches. Move your arms like a speed skater.

Like the drill below.

Not to take this off track, because Daryl is doing a terrific job.

I don't see too many reasons why you couldn't stick with swinging. You're photo shows classic swinging alignments. Flexibility and muscle has little to do with it. It boils down to what your natural tendencies are.

I don't see that you have any issues in being overly muscular and while flexibility can be a nuisance, it doesn't determine whether one should hit or swing.

I'm a masters level powerlifter and plan on challenging the National record for my age/weight group this year. I speak from experience in that muscles and flexibility do not determine hitting vs. swinging. Homer said, "if strong hit and if quick swing" but those are generalities. Homer was a genius at observation. All that really matters is what happens between release and follow through and to be more specific, impact.

Controlling the right shoulder (zone 1 and 2) is vital to both procedures. Learning to hit can help your swinging because it forces you to trace a radical inside/out path and trains the pivot to move along an cross line delivery path (2-J-3-B). It's very difficult to perform this and roundhouse.

I'm done - coach Daryl is providing some great info. I just want to make it clear that hitting and swinging tend to boil down to whats in your DNA. It's great to be able to do both, but you'll always have a tendency one way or the other.

I see a detail that separates you from the great ball strikers at the top. And I think it is important.

You are flat with your forward bend from the hip. And perhaps too flat. So steeper is probably better. But I see something else that I think is even more important.

Your shoulders are steeper at the top than they should be with the given spine angle - on both pictures. At the top, seen down the line, the shoulders should probably be flatter than 90 degree to the overall forward tilt. Take a look at Ben Hogan for instance. Yours are clearly steeper than his (relative to the overall forward bend from the hips).

I believe you are steepening your shoulder turn by bending your spine sideways.

If you stand straight and only do this "spine bending part" of your back swing, this steepening will manifest itself as a side bend in your spine that bends your head and shoulders towards the target. Things may look and feel different at the top, but nevertheless you are setting yourself up to lead the down stroke sequence with your upper body. There will also be a disconnection between this upper part and the rest of your body.

To produce a good, on-plane down stroke you need to produce a side bend in the opposite direction of what you're doing now. One that drops the right shoulder towards right hip, while the hips move forward during transition. The left side of your upper body should become stretched, and the right side compressed. This should happen during transition and kept through the ball. I think you need to eliminate your "reverse" side bend at the top to get there.

Oh well. You can dig it out of the dirt like these guys did.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u3kh0bjlYX0

I had to get to sleep.

I'm going to get to work on it more today and put some more videos up.

Daryl, another great post!
 

Nice use of styles, colors, and PG rated shock value in service of teaching important TGM concepts. My hero! :)

Patrick

That's what I'm talking about. Look at how the right shoulder automatically moves down Plane as his hands return from the Top of his swing.

How much time do we have?

But seriously now folks.........Im all right sided in my swing thoughts. I get in trouble when I start thinking about left sided things. Left hand wrist cock thoughts are my ruin. Maybe that is just me though.

Somewhere in the book Homer discusses how the Right Side centric view of the swing and the Left have very different "appearances". Cant find it for a reference but its a great note. I personally prefer the right sided ones.

Grant if you're Hitting try chipping and doing little pitches with just your Right Arm attached to the club. For me it is a great warm up and exercise in what the fundamentals or basics of my stroke are. Load the elbow, freeze the right hand, on plane right forearm, direct the thrust and the trace or aiming point with the #3 lag pressure point, fan and bend, get to Both Arms Straight, etc etc etc.

Daryl,

Those tits remind me of your advocacy of TSP :laughing9 :laughing9 :laughing9

I try to limit mine, and I guess your mind will really only allow you to process 1 at a time...but here is what Ive been using.

1) STEADY HEAD! (always #1!)
2) trace the plane line (at least attempt to get close to it:laughing9
3)drive w/ PP #1, as I "sense" #3

These are interchangeable w/ the following....but I try to use a max of 3 before any swing.

4) hula,hula (if Im not pivoting correctly)
5) aiming point (in front for irons at the ball for driver)
6) cross line delivery
7) SLOW DOWN
8) frozen wrists
9) both arms straight on f.t.

Grant you're under the Plane at Top .........which will often tend to bounce you back over the Plane in Startdown. It may be Right Elbow position. Research what Lynn calls the "goal posts". Probably on video more than in a Yoda post Id imagine. I think it'll help you a lot.

And maybe research "geometrically flat" left wrist at Top as opposed to literally flat, which is often achieved via an off plane left hand wrist cock. Something Tiger is struggling with so you're in good company. Ideally the club lies on the inclined Plane at Top........ but the Left ARm doesnt, cant, its above the Inclined Plane, given any #3 angle in the grip. "Flat" at top is not "literally" flat given a 10-2-B grip type.

I can't agree with that. The Flat Left Wrist should be Literally Flat at the Top. The Back of the Left Wrist doesn't lay against the Plane but the Palm of the Right Hand and the #3 PP does lay against the Plane.

Is they really on the tsp?









I submit he's got his hands on the TSP but the club is UNDER and plane line shifted out.

Not so hot here. Wedges done . . . clubface whip . . . time the flip . . . but good enough to win a major be rich and have a hot wife. He's a wrist rubbin' goat humper compared to Hogan . . . but hey . . . he's really good at it. Look at his hips and his wedges compared to Hogan . . . no freakin' comparison.





Sadloski ain't no model he can't hit a runway that a DC10 can land on.