Thrust Relative to Plane
 

Have been trying hitting all summer. I believe I started playing golf as a hitter, but then learned the "right" way.

Anyway, I've watched the videos here, read forums, etc. I have not quite seen the answer to I think a pretty fundamental question:

Is the right arm thrust along the plane or from inside across? I know it is down and out (and across?). But, does the elbow sit on the swing plane and the thrust is then along the plane or does the elbow sit inside the plane pushing down and across with the left arm and shaft on plane?

I've been experimenting with the elbow inside feeling (I know that may or may not be what's actually happening). Seems so effortless on the distance with my irons.

(I've read the yellow book through once and will start again...)

Welcome to LBG Brian and thanks for the really great question.

On-Plane Thrust/Aiming

Do I interpret On Plane force to mean my right elbow is on the plane so that the unfolding produces the On Plane force?

Brian,

In your original post and this one at what point of the swing are you talking about the right elbow being on the plane, I think its a good question.

The #3 Pressure Point Thrusts against the Center of Gravity (Sweetspot) of the Clubhead. So, the #3 PP and the Clubhead Sweetspot are always On-Plane.

The Elbow is not on the Sweetspot Plane (Swing-Plane) until Impact unless the #3 PP and Clubhead Sweetspot are on the Elbow Plane. Using the Elbow Plane as your Swing-Plane, then the Elbow will arrive On-Plane at Release. Then, your Right Forearm, Right Elbow, #3 PP and Sweetspot of the Clubhead all travel the Plane from Release through the Impact Interval. The Elbow is not On-Plane from Ball Separation to Both Arms Straight.

With the TSP, the Right Elbow becomes On-Plane (on the Sweetspot Plane) at Impact and can remain On-Plane till Both Arms Straight in the Follow-through.

This is the portion that is very confusing to me because my hands and pp#3 travel down the TSP to impact while the sweet spot of the clubhead comes down the elbow plane, and usually drops below it right before impact.

What should be fixed, the hands need to get lower to the elbow plane? or the club needs to be swing "out" more to get on the TSP?

This is a "way of looking at things" problem.

The "#3 PP" and "Sweetspot-of-the-Clubhead" are the Plane. They define the Plane of the moving Golf Club. The Elbow and TS Plane are reference points only.

The solution is not to swing on one Plane or the other. The solution is to have the #3 PP and Clubhead swing on the same Plane throughout the Swing. The goal is to use the same Plane from Top to Follow-through and beyond.

It does not sound like this is your problem. It sounds like your Clubhead and #3 PP are on the same plane. It sounds like your Plane has rotated to the Right and you are swinging severely inside-out, across the line: an Inside-Out Stroke. I could be wrong, but it sounds like that to me.

I think that sums it up well, here is a photo I snapped. I just look at that and say "hack", though I am a 5 handicap down from 10 when I joined here. This is the shaft, elbow and TSP. My club started down the TSP to this point, you can see the clubhead is on the elbow plane and it continues down to just below impact.

Thats why the right elbow position was interesting to me from the original post.

I think I have an addiction that I don't quite understand, no matter how well I play or hit I can't help but thinking its just not good enough. Is that weird?

From you address position , what would your right arm motion be like if you threw a stone or another golf ball at your golf ball. It'd like a side armed stone skipping motion sort of, right? And so it is in golf as well for longer shots, Major Basic Strokes. "The Right Arm Throw" is a Throw.

Although for a short shot,putting ,chipping maybe there is the Push Basic , Minor Basic Stroke that is more of an in line arm extension deal that can as an option be aligned so it pushes straight towards the target or parallel left or whatever. To attempt to do this for a full shot is a common misconception for a new Hitter I think. It was for me anyways.

I love Daryl's references especially 1-L-15 .......basically you are thrusting until your right arm is straight. Thrusting down and out towards the Plane Line all the way to Both Arms Straight , Follow Through. Way past impact , or low point. Despite the fact the clubhead is moving Up and In. There is more down and out to be had than most people realize is possible, way more.

The down part is fng killing me

You gotta go Down and you gotta go Out.

Doing a lot of work on mats can make a guy take out some Down out for self preservation , injury prevention reasons without him even knowing it.

On grass, picture yourself swinging a hammer, picture the ball as having a spike driven through it .....the ball is laying there in such a manner that the spike is pointed Down into the ground, sticking into the ground and pointed Out to right field. Drive that hammer right into that spike. Drive that spike staight Down and Out.

Add a horizontal hinge or an angled hinge action and a slightly closed club face at Fix and thats about it.

From parallel down through impact.

It is the down and OUT that prompted my original question -- to thrust out, it seemed that the elbow has to be somewhat under the plane (understanding that my point of view above all these planes distorts what might actually be going on!).

Regarding the "throw" feel -- I thought hitters "punched" from a somewhat higher elbow position?

Very good picture. This is what I was talking about -- elbow below TSP.

I like that imagery. However, if I come too far from the inside, well, I've hit some wicked hooks this summer between that closed club face, strong grip and inside to out club head path! Aiming point and extensor action have helped, esp. with longer clubs.

Yea, I think if I was going down more the right elbow with start to straighten quicker and the right forearm would get more on plane. My problem to avoid is to make sure in an effort to go down that I still have the shoulder working down plane as I tend to leave the right shoulder and drop down in some kind of perverted axis tilt.

Perhaps the source of your confusion lies in the Right Forearm Flying Wedge , which is the plane of the right wrist bend...........something completely different than the Inclined Plane. They align themselves , but only briefly at Impact , prior to that the right elbow as you mention is under the Inclined Plane.

For Major Basic Strokes Homer reasoned the Right Elbow must be somewhere and so he identified the three positions......Pitch , Punch and Push. Push being normally a short shot thing. Punch can approach Pitch , Punch has a range so to speak. Its my opinion that new found Hitters think that hitting a full shot requires a Push Elbow and an in line sort of jab like arm extension.......not so for long shots. No Sir.

Its not a boxers jab its a side armed throw for full shots anyways.

To tell you the truth I dont even like Push for short shot hitting..........after a few years of goofing with it , I'm going to stay away from it I think. Never say never but.......it got kinda jabby for me. I far prefer the Bat personally.

All of this aside I do know of a really, really good golfer, a guy who lost in the semi finals of the U.S. Am a few years back that does come into impact with a Push Elbow for full shots......... there's lots of options and there's no one way to do things.

Here's my 2 cents Canadian, 1.5 U.S. , 2 Australian.

-shifting to, from the TSP to the Elbow Plane is not a bad thing. Maybe normal, so to speak. You could argue the smaller the shift the better but thats another discussion for another day.

-the Sweet Spot Plane is what really needs to travel the Inclined Plane although the shaft is a handy reference though not quite correct. This Sweet Spot Plane is defined by your #3 pp and the sweetspot on the clubface, very basically. A line running straight from one to the other and beyond.

-your #3pp is on the TSP.

-your face is not. The extension of the Sweetspot Plane points outside the Base Line, Plane Line. Meaning you're under the Plane.

-your Right Forearm Flying Wedge is good. Its "on the table" see Lynns photos of him laying his forearm and shaft on a table top. The plane of the RFFW is the plane of the Right WRist Bend.

-What about your Left ARm Flying Wedge? What would your left wrist look like if? Using your RFFW you manipulated the Sweetspot Plane , or clubshaft if you prefer so it pointed at the Plane Line? You'd need to keep the Plane of the RFFW in tact which'd require a repositioning of the whole RFFW , a change in right elbow position. Would there be a little bend to the left wrist?

-I suspect you have loaded with a slightly off plane left hand wrist cock. The plane of the LAFW is the plane of the left hand wrist cock, a pure vertical deal. I suspect a little horizontal left wrist motion in there. Which if taken down plane from Top to where you are near Release will look just like this photo.

Its a common problem especially for guys who seek to have a literally flat left wrist instead of a "geometrically flat" left wrist.

Imagine a thin piece of tape running up the top of the clubshaft and a second piece of tape running up the top of your left arm (top here will be left hand grip type dependent). Imagine cocking the club straight up Vertically so the two tape lines stay inline on the same vertical plane. What happens to your Left Wrist? It probably isnt literally flat but a little bent, cupped .........as it should be. Geometrically flat. If the RFFW lays on table top, the LAFW lays flat against a wall. 90 degrees to each other. One along the top of the shaft the other along the aft.

If you are using a Right Forearm Takeaway it may require a slightly different arm motion to load like this.

If this seems like this helps, pm me , I have spent a lot of time fighting this move personally. The key is to figure out what causes the off plane loading. Somewhere there is a false feel that needs to be changed. For me it was the feel of max'ing out the Right Hand bend.....a false feel that arched my left wrist and took me under the plane. An RFT that Fans but doesnt Bend UP can do it too. A right elbow position that isnt aligned at Top can do it. etc etc.

Just re read this.


The clubhead , the Hands, the direction of Thrust all approach the ball from the "inside" just as the Plane dictates given any angle of inclination. Picture it from down the line......to move down plane is to move Out and Down towards the Plane Line.

A straight Plane Line has an associated Inside out approach given any inclination to the plane. A vertical plane would have only down and no out. A Horizontal Plane would have only Out and no Down.

Per 2-J-2 ".......Though its an "Inside Out" Impact its not an Inside Out Stroke unless the Plane Line crosses the Line Of Flight as depicted in photo 10-5-E" (Closed , Closed).

So in other words the direction of Thrust is not "cross line" or "across" like you say unless you construct a cross line , closed Plane Line and then thrust down and out along this new plane towards its Base Line. Thereby thrusting out "across" the original straight plane line.

To get the Down and Out along the plane, it seems that I have to have the "feeling" of across. When I have the feeling of "down the line" it results in a big pull. Of course, too much across (like you've described above) and big hook (that starts down the line and turns over like a top spin forehand in tennis!).

The side arm throw feeling actually captures what I feel when I hit good shots, but I was concerned that I was "switting" and didn't want to ingrain that feeling. Also, cannot believe how slowly I can swing and hit really crisp shots. Tempo has been a real challenge, but one worth fighting.

I got into the whole "hitting" vs. "swinging" because I've been away from golf for 6 years and want to develop a more consistent approach to ball striking. I've always been streaky -- tour caliber shot followed by cold top, a fat one, then another 9-iron to three feet. Way too frustrating. Hitting seems to offer the control (plus I'm getting near 50, so flexibility is fading!).

Been lurking here for a year, but am thankful you guys are willing to share.

You have to get into the geometry of chapter 2 . It aint easy but its worth the effort.

The clubhead does approach the ball from the inside , assuming the ball is positioned back of low point. Its not a optical illusion or anything it literally does as it comes down the slanted, Inclined Plane. Down and OUt towards the base line. It should feel like this too. So yes, to feel like you are swinging straight line towards the target.......Steering in the book.......is to bend the plane line to the left.

Contrary to what the golf magazines at the time were saying (and the PGA) Homer thought that the ball started at right angles to the clubface at Separation. That the ball curved in accordance with any divergence between face angle and clubhead path. The opposite of what we thought , but now confirmed by Track man etc etc.

So.....if your hooks are starting down the line and then hooking left like you say .........your face is square at Separation and your clubhead path is Crossline , bent to the right. Pretty close to being good. But if you flip the face over you've got more work to do, it'll take you longer to fix. But join the club , its the golfers afflicition.

That last has been my big, bad miss this year -- wicked hard low left hook. Worst is beating the ball off the tee into the ground about an inch in front of the tee.

I'm working on eliminating the flip. Bad habit I picked up years ago from the pictures of pros parallel after impact. Really bad habit trying to flip the clubhead at the ball.

I'm off on vacation after today...little yellow book is going along with me.

Watching my right forearm but not the Frozen BRW.
 

Hi OB and everyone. I have been following this discussion and I tried to explain the "down, out, and forward" to myself by ignoring the frozen, bent right wrist (FBRW) and concentrating on tracing the baseline of the plane with only my forearm. If I ignore the FBRW, I can really see the baseline of the plane past Impact Fix sighting down my right forearm.

In my understanding of TGM, as long as my FBRW is rock solid, given an Impact Fix stance, any Pivot and thrust along the plane will result in a "down, out, and forward" strike applied by the FBRW. Is that right? :dontknow: Is that how a pro or talented golfer manages so much more compression? :scratch: They sight down the right forearm well ahead of the ball and keep driving down?

If that is a correct understanding, that would explain why a properly FBRW, used with say, a 3 wood, would not allow for a "Punch Basic" stroke since the 3 wood's length would not allow the FBRW to ever hit the ball before the arm drove all the way down (lacking a Pivot). :idea1:

What I'm trying to gauge, OB, is a standardization of distance and clubs. In a funny way, the end of the "swing" might not be as important as where Both Arms Straight occurs. I'm also concerned as to my lack of distance and divots. I have a funny feeling as to their one-to-one correspondence. :rolleyes:

Yesterday, on my way to my first 80 and the initiation of the CGCBF ($18), I "forced" a strong sand iron to a 95 yard carry over water (instead of the usual 80 yard carry and 10 yards of roll). I then "forced" a 6 iron to a 185 yards of carry vs. the usual 170 yards of carry and roll. In both cases, I did not really get much of a divot but just sighted further ahead down the right arm and along the target line. I made sure my FBRW was rock solid throughoutt the round and really Pivoted strongly.

Thanks in advance!

Patrick

Patrick, have you tried the Aiming Point procedure? If no, try it and see if you dont feel like you are Thrusting Down and Out , towards the Plane Line past Low Point all the way to Both Arms Straight, Follow Through.

You said "thrust along the plane" , you must, need to, thrust down the Inclined Plane. Our perception of things, our intent changes the geometry. Either for the better or the worse. Maybe the Aiming Point deal is better for you than Tracing? Maybe not. They are geometric equals but not exactly the same by any means......I bet you see some divots.

Will research and I get the power of intentionality!
 

I will report back.:salut:

Wow!
 

This Aiming Point doctrine is amazing!


Yoda said:

You may be able to accomplish the correct alignments in Fix, but fail totallyin real time. If so, the problem may well lie in your Right Shoulder location.In Fix, make sure you keep that Right Shoulder down (On Plane per 7-13).You're probably coming into Impact too high, and as a result, you're "runningout of right arm," an automatic throwaway. From the Top, turn yourRight Shoulder directly toward the Ball and then through it, and continueto Trace the Straight Plane Line with it into the Follow-Through. PictureTrevino's Right Shoulder Down on plane through impact and let it happen.


He also wrote:

w.

In your pre-game warm-up, emphasizeyour Impact Fix position before each shot. Focus first on the very shortones -- Acquired Motion per 12-5-2, Right Forearm no higher than level withthe ground. Take the motion to the end of the Follow-Through -- BothArms Straight Position -- and make sure your left wrist is flat and yourright wrist has remained bent. Hit a lot of these shots and monitor thefollow-through -- which is also the finish in this case -- and ask:

First Imperative: "Is my Left Wrist Flat? Is my Right WristBent?"

Second Imperative: "Did I feel and sustain the loading pressureagainst the passive first joint of my Right Forefinger throughout theDownstroke, Impact, the Follow-Through (Both Arms Straight) and even into myFinish?

Third Imperative: "Did I trace the Straight Plane Line? And did Idirect the Clubhead Lag Down -- through the Ball, throughthe Aiming Point, through the Low Point, through to the end ofthe Follow-Through (Both Arms Straight Position)?"


Then, do what you can to achieve these alignments during your full Strokes. Donot think of how you're going to do it, just focus on your objective.


Anyway OB, that's enough for about 6 more months of practice.:salut:

I feel par coming on! :golfcart: Thanks!

See 1-L #5 #7 #10 #11

A Winning Fivesome
 

And throw in #15 to finish the job!

From the Top:

#5 On Plane Club . . .

#7 Driven by Lag Pressure Point Pressure . . .

#10 Toward the Baseline . . .

#11 With all its Accumulated, Loaded and Stored Power . . .

#15 Down Plane through Release and Impact to the end of the Follow-Through (Both Arms Straight).

:salut:

Major omission for me to leave out #15 . . . THANKS FOR GETTIN' HIM IN DA GAME!!!

OKOKOOKOO I don't really get it!
 

Hands mid-body with ball off left heel (flared), feet together.
RF on plane, club behind the ball on sighted plane line
Rehearse club straight in front of me (horiz.) FBRW Like a rock!
Right foot back, balanced stance, ball moves= right foot goes back.
RFT, slight EA, trace BLP to shoulder height or less!
Nose over the ball as I step and drag.

Front 9 was bad news. I hit several clubs really really well past their normal distances! As I stepped forward, I threw my right shoulder at the ball. I hit a PW 130 yards and a 3 hybrid 220 yards which was really sucko for my score since the pin was 30 yards away each time! "Momma said there be days like this!" I shot a 48.

I dialed it back to just stepping through and shot a back 9, 41.
I lost $15.:crybaby:

Well, I have no idea how you guys control your distance with the shoulder strike. Maybe that's why so many people swing?
Do you simply use the hit for drives and long shots only?
I'm really not upset. I was dreaming of par today, and instead, I got monster distance. I was dying for monster distance until I realized I didn't need it to shoot par. UGH!

Patrick

My point of confusion, currently.
 

If I do my FBRW and make it rock solid, and trace the BLP with EA, I'm going to score, but not on "big-boy courses," so I need to know how to dial up the distance like JerryG and Kevin (when his elbow heels) and Dodger and Bartly (who are scary beasts).

When I do simply freeze the BRW like a rock and trace the BLP, I have a perfect backstroke. With short clubs, I can straighten the right elbow and the ball mountain climbs dead on line landing softly.

If I get a perfect backstroke (or close) and keep that power package braced with the right arm intact, should I be able to step and roll the whole shoulder and package Down and through the ball for the long clubs? Is that what the "crap smacker" is?

Lynn shows on the TEd Fort tape that there is no independently extending right elbow so the whole power package must come down together as allowed by the Pivot right?

Patrick

If I get a perfect backstroke (or close) and keep that power package braced with the right arm intact, should I be able to step and roll the whole shoulder and package Down and through the ball for the long clubs?

Perfect Zone 1



Lynn shows on the TEd Fort tape that there is no independently extending right elbow so the whole power package must come down together as allowed by the Pivot right?

Depends on your Release procedure. Sweep, Snap, etc.

Daryl? What is the release called where you pivot and drive down...
 

...In the same set-up as impact Fix? I step on my left heel(after hula)and roll the back shoulder at the ball with my FBRW frozen and my right shoulder driving the PL and FLW to China through the ball, even the driver (that ball flight and straight line is so cool).

I have managed to get Impact Fix correct at END and hold it frozen. With the Pivot being correct, and Impact Fix being correct at END, my only real problem is reading the putt, right?

BTW, D, how is your summer going, and your golf? :)

I'm sorry I haven't asked. I have been chasing my white whale of par. :golfcart:


Patrick

Ohhhh, so that's hitting!
 

I played 27 holes, today.

Got to the course, early, 6:15 am. Tee time at 6:45am. I warmed up with 4 acquired motions FBRW/TBLP/Pivot/Right Shoulder Follows DOWN, DOWN, DOWN (from 20 balls).

Hit 10 more balls practicing FROZEN BRW and trying to really roll the shoulder down. Off to the tee.

Pulled first ball left at about a 20 degree angle, and the 9 iron was pulled left of the green by about 10 feet. I went on to shoot a weird 44. Dbl, almost bird, almost bird, almost bird (all 3 GIR's putt burns edge), dbl, dbl, trpl, par, par. I still have a bad habit of forgetting to really extend and trace the BLP and taking my hands too far in. I also have a bad habit of playing the ball too far back. That leads to snap hooks, pulling into trees and missing greens in really foul places given a hard and fast ground.

Lessons learned! Ball moved up. TRACE! LOOK! PIVOT and RIGHT SHOULDER FLOWS TO BALL. Shoot 40. Par, birdie, almost birdie (edge), bogie, bogie, par (very nervous, tell myself "hang on, one bogie and two easy pars and I shatter the 40 barrier,")203 yard par 3 and I send the par putt 20 feet past the hole. Dbl. So I smother a drive into the biggest pine tree south of the North Pole on the next hole. DBL. Par.

9 more holes. Lessons learned. Lots of good shots. Shoot 40 again.

I have to keep my nose over the ball. TRACE, STEP and ROLL.

I have this 40 thing down! :)

Patrick

Ola Innercityteacher,

How's my game?




Practice is best done at home, without a club and without a ball. (dowels and badminton rackets ok)
The Range and practice area and green are good for fine tuning and having fun.
When you Play, try to get the ball in the hole with the fewest number of strokes. (I'm not kidding)
Develop a Pre-Shot Routine.

That may be true Daryl, but my avatar is more charming!
 

That's does it Daryl! PM me your address. I'm driving to Chicago to kick your but around your home course! :)

You had better be a par shooter, buddy, and I get strokes!

$ 2 Nassau and it's cash only!!!! Oh, and you are buying lunch!

Moi

I can hear Kate Smith singing the Star Spangled Banner, for some reason.

Uh oh.

Don't U mean?
 

God Bless America "Aye" (Eh?)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8QksTKRYS0&feature=fvw


The Bear

Yes of course , forgive me......Ive been trying hard for the last few decades to forget...

Dave, "The Hammer" Shultz, Rick McLeash, Bernie Parent, Bobby Clarke and of course Ed Van Imp.....

Old time hockey. There was one time and one time only that I cheered for the Flyers..


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B516G...eature=related