Full Blades/Musclebacks/ or Perimeter Weighted for #3 PP?
 

I was feeling the # 3 PP flow DOWN and OUT tonight and I was using my Callaway clone HT perimeter weighted irons. I switched to an old Hogan Apex 3 iron.


WOW! The lag speed and feel of the Hogan Apex went straight were I aimed it like greased lightening. When I hit the clones, they seemed to demand more tracing and less thrusting.

My imagination? Value Golf sells nice clone clubs inexpensively, like Bang-o-matic, Snake Eyes, Dynacraft and they sell forged/ muscle backs, whatever for $200 - $300.

On the other hand, I hit a set of Mizuno game improvement irons a month ago and they were fine and about $900!


Ideas, suggestions?


ICT

Get some blades and a raft of hybrids.

For me, shaft flex has a lot to do with how well the club responds. I like to push hard on the shaft right before and into impact. With the right shaft I get added distance. If the shaft is to weak I don't get the reght kind of resistance to the thrusting. If it's too stiff I really have to add some extra with timing. But when it's just right.

I actually believe that the wrong flex will mess with the rhythm if you have some drive loading in there.

I played 9 holes / 2 balls with a set of vintage blades on Sunday. 8th tee - 3 iron. They would be ideal for practice if the shafts were stiffer, but they are regular: First ball a strong draw - almost a hook. Good distance. Second ball: Feels perfect - sweet spot - high draw - straight down the line - and 30 yards shorter.

Reminds me of when I used to play weaker iron shafts than today. I never quite figured out how to hit the ball to get the right distance. I had to deliberately max the thrust some distance before impact to get a good result. But I couldn't feel the difference between a good shot and one that flopped.

These things never happen to me when I play with stiffer shafts.

With stiffer shafts I get a much more predictable result and distance control. Higher COG possibly makes a difference too.

BTW, I can't stand the big offset in the game improvement clubs. It messes with my aiming.

A proper fit makes a HUGE difference. I have no problems with clones or any brand for that matter, but if it doesn't fit you it won't matter if it is the most expensive or the cheapest.

that said, blades are no doubt the best for feel, but there are a ton of really good designs out there now that weren't around 10 years ago that can still provide great feedback, and reasonable forgiveness

Aside from feel/feedback, blades are much, much easier to play in the wind - that is the main issue I have with my Ping i5's - very difficult to knock down compared to my MacGregor 1025M's

I once experimented with a cheap set of clone blades off ebay (I think they were like $99 'new'), and I was surprised at how well they played - but I wouldn't play them other than to practice because they were obviously no where near as refined as a name brand blade


bottom line is you simply have to get out and hit a lot of different designs/shafts and work with a good fitter

think of it this way - you can drive an old vw bug, or a bmw, both get you down the road, but one of them is clearly more fun!

(as Ted and Curt can attest from the Barclay's, some of them are REALLY fun) :)

Agree with what EdZ says about knock down & blades here.

I was playing Tommy Armour 845S before and I basically had to take out a long iron to be certain that the ball went low. Switched to Mizuno MP 32 and I could hit hard down on the ball with a 7 and get the ball as low as I wanted. Huge difference in playability.

But beware of flexi shafts too. The shaft probably makes as huge difference as the heads.

Thanks Bernt and Ed.
 

Both of you have given me some important insights. If I may pick at some of the new insights...

1) "Pushing hard on a shaft..." This mystifies me. How can you push hard on a shaft without throwing out the clubhead, unless... you are extending the elbow and pushing both # 1 PP and # 2 PP simultaneously. Does the stiffer shaft keep less flex and more uniformity in the lever and club, like pushing a board?

1.5) Do you monitor your lever at all? What I'm sensing as the feeling # 3 PP grows in my hands, and with OB and Daryl's input, is that the ideal is not to notice anything but your hands. Once LAG is "caught," both hands are thrust or swung as quickly as possible ahead of the clubhead. I have done this and it almost impossible to monitor. Both arms are thrust at the ball, period. What's not logical is the explosive force of the hit when that happens. It always surprises me. And you're saying that a stiffer shaft amplifies the strike?

2) I understand why the offset would be upsetting, Bernt. My driver is not offset. When I thrust with that club and senior shaft the ball never wants to come down (Adams old 9.5 Redline).

3) Ed, what constitutes a good club fitter? Is there a website/several, well known standards? With a shorter front leg, perhaps a shorter club length...we'll see!

Thanks, men!

ICT

Until the objective of the swing is to strike the ball on the perimeter of the clubhead I'll stay with muscle-back designs. Last I heard we were still supposed to hit the sweetspot. :)

CG

May it always be that simple!
 

Ok, no-offset, musclebacks. I'll hit a few clones and any other recommendations?



ICT

The cb vs mb argument has probably been hashed out here before. My input is that you've probably gotten a sneak peek at just how good the mb's can perform based on your brief experience with the Apex. Too many people have been duped into thinking all they can hit are big cb designs. I contend they never give mb's a real chance. One or 2 miss-hits and they scramble back to the frying pans. They usually start that experiment with a pre-conceived notion anyways.

Don't think you can't hit the sweetspot or get real close to it. It's just hard to know if you are or aren't with most of the game-improvement stuff they make. Feedback is what allows you to get better at hitting the sweetspot.

Excellent quality (but older) mb designs are all over ebay for a song.

CG

Innercityteacher,

1) I push mostly on pp#1 initially. There will be more pp#3 towards the ball of course.

But remember we're talking about educated hands here, they know where they need to go and how to get there.

Then there's a "catch me if you can" game between the driveloading and the pivot. A game that the driveloading should never win in my stroke pattern. It catches up with some of the pivot lag but it never overtakes the pivot lag pressure. The lag pressure from the rope handling is maxed at impact.

1.5) Monitoring:

Impact is in the spotligth of my monitoring system. It's in the middle of my mind all the time. The further away from the ball, the more blurred the monitoring is. In two ways. More focus on the impact zone than the transition and follow thru, and more focus on the club than the hands. And more focus on the hands than other body parts. The hands are possible the most important monitoring device.

This is certainly an area of shades of gray and semantic traps. It is very easy to get reductionistic when discussing this topic, too easy to paint the dark grey parts black and omit the lighter gray parts altogether. The brain works in hierarcic ways. I believe you can basically monitor everything that conserns your golf stroke in real time. Further I believe that good players have greater awareness (monitoring skills + intuitive understanding) of what happens in their stroke than the rest of us.

2) Distance hasn't anything to do with my issue with offset. The offset carries an illusion of a closed clubface that is really disturbing to me when I stand over the ball. I see the shot better with a clean leading edge.

The offset also carries a small amount of added loft but that part is insignificant to me.

Very helpful, per habitude!
 

Semantic traps indeed! Some people live for them which means they never quite got over the sound of their own confusion!

One of the many nice things to say about LBG and TGM generally. There is something to say and discuss and so we use specific terms to "grab" an important issue and hope our candles and Lynn's 10 million watt floodlight do the trick.

I'm thinking you have a large floodlight of your own as do many others here. I'm feeling like a package of birthday candles, myself, but it's a start! :) Whoopee!

So then, I glide along with the Pivot, sipping my Gin and Tonic, slowly, due to my Gout, and as I approach the ball I drive # 1 PP through China and that's it!

It was late last night and I was reading OB, somewhere, and he was mentioning driving the right shoulder. I would love to RFT/EA /Hula and drive my right shoulder DOWN and OUT (which TGM has turned into a positive). We are talking about the same thing, correct, as hitters, but not as Swingers?

ICT

I regard myself as a swinger with driveloading added. Most of the time I rotate pp#3 at the top. A switter? No-no-no. Usually I swing through impact so I guess you can call me a hinger:laughing9

Bernt, I swung the Titleist Z's muscle backs, today.
 

The clubs are a lot lighter than the perimeter weighted Callaway knock-offs I have been playing for 5 years (extended by 1.5 " each and the thickest possible grips). The Titleists Z's set up to the ball very clearly. My ball position is sharply back unless my stance is much narrower. The clubs have only one direction, DOWN.

These clubs seem to really bite down and really seem to emphasize LAG pressure on # 3 PP. Once I feel the pressure engage, I drive my shoulder, hip or elbow DOWN, or I pull/drive the axe handle down, and the clubs is down and through before I know it except for a really loud, flat "Klack-ZZZ" sound. The clubs seem very light, and almost dare a person to see how powerfully they can be sent DOWN and UP and Around!.

There is no doubt as to the direction of the shot. If I stay on PLANE, the ball goes straight and high! There was plenty of light at 4:30 p.m. tonight, but the ball just got smaller a lot faster! My Callaway knock-offs are "high trajectory" but these Z's are every bit as high in ball flight, unless I want to punch the ball low.

Punching the ball low seems much easier. As a matter of fact, the ball seems to do whatever my #3 PP makes it do! LOL

So that's why people play this kind of club!


Any tips for using these, or things to watch?

ICT

Titleist ZB's, Who knew?
 

My swing: I start out with Hula left and Impact Fix. RFT/EA/ BRW leads club to shoulder high top. LAG crashes against #3 PP. I post my front leg float loading and carry the LAG until I sweep release (fire right arm and spin the wheel) or wait until the BRW stretches out with LAG and punch the elbow/forearm through the ball (right through the ball) faster than the BRW can think to un-cock!

With these ZB's, my head must be stable. Ball position is off my buckle and forward for hybrids and driver. I found a true dirt driving range. Grass stains on the middle of the club faces on irons and all clubs but driver! I haven't tried to work the ball yet. It's been too much fun not pulling/pushing/ slicing ball!

The range balls fly directly where I aim the LAG (BRW/# 3 PP) on a rope! Houston, we have a problem. I hit a pitching wedge or two today that rolled about 140 after a right at the pin howitzer shot trajectory. I lost sight of the 7 iron after it flew over the 150 yard marker on it's way up. Then I lost sight of the 6-4 irons well past the 175 yard marker in the air.

I always knew that my swing would be sound if I could hit the old Hogan Apexs. Standing Hula with my leg shortness in front must really magnify my LAG. I punched the Apex 3-1ron from inside my left heel to the end of this range on the fly. Mountain climbing! I wanted to hit the ZB 1iron if they make one!

The hybrids (2 and 3) were high and long though the ball was not moving quite as fast off those clubs. Old ADams 3 and 5 wood were bullets as was the Adams Speedline driver.

Being at an all dirt/grass facility really helped me simply fire my elbow/forearm through the ball. Yes, I measured my divots and their shape. While spinning the rim, the divots flare right of the target line and are the width of the blade at the end (the divot gets wider at the end). The end is past the impact strike by 3" and longer when I punch the elbow through the ground! I'm not sure what it is "supposed" to be but my Hula set-up (slightly open) helps me imagine the " angled fish hook" shape my BRW will make as my elbow/forearm shoots through the ball and ground.

If I don't stay down through the strike, my hands sting. So, I stay down and let the club drag me around. The ZB's metal mass make feeling the LAG easier on my # 3 PP and a maintaining the lag easier as I drive/punch the elbow through. When I simply watch the club go through the ball, there is very little feeling and a satisfying sound.

Just for yucks, I ended the day by flipping my BRW back to shoulder level and firing my elbow in almost one continuous motion. I got the idea from watching the pro's waggle only substituting the elbow thrust for down move.It feels very much like my college tennis forehand did but with a stable head. The ball keeps going up and down range! I'll need to work out the new distances and get a gap and sand wedge!

ICT

Geez, City, ain't this fun?

Just for yucks, I ended the day by flipping my BRW back to shoulder level and firing my elbow in almost one continuous motion. I got the idea from watching the pro's waggle only substituting the elbow thrust for down move.It feels very much like my college tennis forehand did but with a stable head. The ball keeps going up and down range! I'll need to work out the new distances and get a gap and sand wedge!

ICT[/quote]

Yeppers, G!
 

The grass turf is really important. I can just fire the elbow long before the LAG dissipates on # 3 PP and it almost doesn't matter where my #3 PP is as long as I can feel the LAG since it is connected to my elbow!

AS LONG AS I DRIVE MY ELBOW AT THE BALL , THE HAND AND # 3 PP HAS TO FOLLOW!!!!!

I just realized that this morning! I can be dense, sometimes! :eyes:

ICT

[/quote]

I agree with you 1.5. The problem for me is, I have to be very, very careful that "monitoring" doesn't turn into "directing". That is my pitfall. Trying to direct all the actions versus making a good, athletic move with the end in mind...you just can't think your way through the half second of down, out and forward. You can feel it, though.

A stable head, Hula, Impact Fix...
 

More ZB stuff. With a stable head and proper set-up, RFT/EA will do the trick. I'm liking the BRW lead of the club back though, a lot! :)

There is no way I can flick my #3 PP back (and simultaneously trace the BLP, LOOK, LOOK, LOOK) and not generate massive LAG for my elbow thrust to use.

Distances are messed up in a good way. All I'm doing when Hitting is TRACING BLP with # 3 PP to my shoulder (smoother is better), Thrusting (Punching) DOWN, and making sure my ball is slightly ahead of my belt buckle. I can sweep the shots too with Standard Address.
PW -130 yards carry and rolls, Hitting, and more Sweeping/Swinging
9 - 140 " " "
8 - 150+ "
7 - 160 +
6 - close to the 175 yard fence and 5 and 4 irons are into the fence on the fly! The sound is very cool, too.

ICT

Believe it or not, your old irons being +1.5" longer than standard may have hurt your distance. SOP says that the longer the shaft, the further you should hit it, but not when the extra length was robbing you of a solid, centered strike. I should have looked at how your old clubs fit you while you were here, we could have sped up the process of your improvement.

Kevin

I'll certainly agree with your there, Kev. I'm not so sure we shouldn't err to the shorter side of things rather than the longer.
I have a friend always looking for an increase in distance and his scores continue to stay the same or get worse due to his loss of accuracy.

Okay, Teach, need a cheat sheet...

ZB?

RFT - Right Forearm Tracing
EA - Ext. Action
BRW - Bent Right Wrist
BLP - Base Line Plane?

think i get most of this ICT but flick my #3 PP back
would you explain what you mean here ? thanks
i know what #3 pp is btw just not sure what you are feeling/doing with it

Distances are messed up in a good way. All I'm doing when Hitting is TRACING BLP with # 3 PP to my shoulder (smoother is better), Thrusting (Punching) DOWN, and making sure my ball is slightly ahead of my belt buckle. I can sweep the shots too with Standard Address.
PW -130 yards carry and rolls, Hitting, and more Sweeping/Swinging
9 - 140 " " "
8 - 150+ "
7 - 160 +
6 - close to the 175 yard fence and 5 and 4 irons are into the fence on the fly! The sound is very cool, too.

ICT[/quote]



Holy buckets, City, are sure your driving range isn't an empty parking lot? Those are some prodigious yardages.

OK, here we go...
 

When you bend your right wrist back, your # 3 PP point to the base line of the plane if your right arm is aligned on plane. If you do it quickly, one might call it a "flick." DO IT SLOWLY AND FEE AS IF THAT PP IS LEADING YOUR RIGHT ARM UP PLANE. Let me know if this helps or if my imbalances are adversely effecting your imbalances. :)

ICT

Mon Frere. Bonjour!
 

Holy buckets, City, are sure your driving range isn't an empty parking lot? Those are some prodigious yardages.[/quote]

I am punching down on the ball with about 90% of my weight into my Hula! I throw the # 3 PP back and up Plane and then crush that pebble by driving my forearm into it! My ball position is really back towards my (ample) middle.
:golfcart:

Do you think you are describing "lagging clubhead takeaway?"

Kevin

b4 i start, i might have the exact location of no3 pp incorrect, i don't have the book yet, so please correct me if it is not the fleshy bit of the rt fore-finger between the knucle & first joints that rests on the club shaft.

so when i bend the rt wrist it points through the shaft & out to a point on the base of the plane line target side of the ball ?

yes i can get the feel of this pp leading my rt arm up the plane so i think i'm with you & i like it - it gets me sensing whether i'm in touch with getting the club lagged or not.

i played 9 holes yesterday & more or less completely lost this lag feeling that had allowed me to play some good shots on Saturday, but i found it again hitting a few balls today - it is like it causes the club face to become hot & live - i love it !! It is definitely a big step in the right direction for me.

not off message i hope - can someone point me towards an understanding of how the right wrist can stay bent & level whilst the left wrist has cocked at the top of the backswing - has me foxed :-) TIA

The Magic Of The Right Forearm

Once you learn the proper Strong Single Action Grip, can't do it without a perfect SSA grip, and get your Right Forearm Set Up On Plane, you use your right forearm and elbow to cock your left wrist. Takes a little time, a little patience, a little work, you will love the results...

Start with the grip.
Move to set up.
Don't rush, take it in stages.

Watch videos from YODA.

Work with an instructor who understands the Machine. Incredibly important as youy are getting started. I see too many guys try to do it on their own, get frustrated, and quit.

Kevin

thanks Kevin

hard to believe, but there is no one registered within 100 miles of me. On the plus side i'd say i'm not easily discouraged :-) but maybe i will end up having to make a monthly trip to the nearest one.
Can i get a good handle on the SSA grip from somewhere on the website or maybe the Alignment Golf video from Yoda ?

you use your right forearm and elbow to cock your right wrist............ was this meant to say something else ? The rt wrist is always bent & level rather than cocked ? i have been trying to work it out but will have to call time on it for now :eyes:

i'm sure i will - thanks for the help

Tim, a few things to know.
 

Yoda KNOWS. Kevin, is dam good, and I am trying to be helpful. :eyes:

After you get the feeling of bending your right. elbow several hundred times, you will realize that you can do so quickly. :)

Please don't resent my humor. I consider myself thick so I'm laughing at myself for taking so long to learn this.

Ok, back to you. So your hands are clamps. The strength is in your hands. Relax your wrists. Pretend you are effeminate. You can be if you want for real, but I'm trying to describe a light, loose wrist. Some of my best friends....etc.

(Actually, I know lots of men who are young and gay. You see, I believe in live and let live and I do not disrespect people because of their sexual preference. If I wanted someone to change their preference, the only way to do it would be to be accepting and respectful of their insight as a person. Haters never win!)

Make your trigger finger taught and your wrists very loose. Put your right forearm on plane at Standard Address. (Tim, I'm hoping you have a book, since it's crucial.) Your left wrist must be straight and level and your right wrist is bent. (The Barclay's video is great for this discussion!) Bend your right wrist slowly back and watch what your # 3 PP does. LOOK. Let it lead to your shoulder.

I'm trying to work on thrusting my right elbow down through the ball to maximize LAG. What I've deduced about the Plane thus far is that if you extend your right arm to reach it, your extended right arm has to come back to it regardless of your hand action, IF YOU BEND YOUR RIGHT ELBOW. and, if my right wrist is loose (if GOD allows another "if"), then my LAG in my # 3PP will be maxed out! My punch forearm will produce good distance with my clubs.

I have an artificial hip Tim and I'm trying to max out my upper body technique to compensate for a slow Pivot.

Now, Yoda, or OB or Daryl might want to correct my take on this and that's ok, since I hate being an idiot!

ICT

Thanks for the reply

ok gotcha, i'll bear it in mind, appreciate that you can be bothered to try & help :)

we should get along famously - you can't be any thicker than me :)

totally agree hate & anger can't get us anywhere worth going to

err guilty i'm afraid, been trying to get it for a fair price in the UK, 100+ usd seemed a bit steep on Amazon, the registered pro's here don't seem to sell it or are out of stock - so i'm getting it sent over for 70 usd but i'm doing my best to keep up in the meantime

ok i'll give this some time with girly wrists & elbows :-) i'm sure you make an important point here - thanks

ok cool, sounds like it is working for you & also it makes sense to me - which may or may not be a positive :-)

Sorry man, should read "use your right elbow to cock your LEFT wrist" ...

Kevin

no problem i figured it was a typo

does the right wrist bend increase as it accomodates the left wrist cocking ?

Please check with one of the others to be sure this answer is correct. My understanding:

It depends upon your selected Address Procedure. If you set up with "Impact Hands" your right wrist angle is pre-set and doesn't change. If you set up with "Mid-Body Hands" your right wrist will bend and snap into position at some point in the back stroke.

While I am attempting to Educate my Hands, I am using the "Impact Fix" set up procedure and trying to maintain my angles. Particularly effective in basic motion...

Kevin

ok thanks, that increase in rhw bend idea was a red herring, i was tring to figure out how the lhw cocking was accomodated but i think i'm getting it now - as you say by the movement of the rt elbow & forearm the goal being to get to the top with a cocked left wrist & a level right wrist

Tim, if you ever get any insight from my typed offerings you should...
 

by several lotto tickets . :)

City,
I'm thinking sometimes you might be living from time to time in a parallel universe.
Are you still able to play in Philly? Are you putting more focus into pp#1?

Hi Jerry! Kevin, Tim, Daryl, OB , everyone!
 

I'm writing this while a southern warmfront pushes our temperature and trash cans into the air! 65 degrees tomorrow and sunny/windy. We are talking dirt range and the Schnauzer, Anna-Louisa!

After I trace the BLP (Base LIne Plane) by "tossing," "flicking," or "pointing " my # 3 PP at it , letting it pull my arm to shoulder height with slight Extensor Action, I am aware of two things which I count to myself as a check list.

Do this at horizontal level and incline gradually with your practice swing. Extend your right arm, fully with club in the middle of your right forearm. Snap your right wrist back for exaggeration of the feeling of LAG crashing against your # 3 PP and your right /back elbow bending. Then forget about the LAG and concentrate only on your bent elbow which you will shoot out at the imaginary horizontal ball/target.

By rapidly accelerating your Bennding Right Wrist/back wrist, you have plasterd the LAG against the # 3 PP and your opposite elbow straightening will keep it there until you come to your left/frontside ear. Fire the elbow and (sooner or later) the # 3 PP will go through the ball at speed.

Playing with this approach gives me good distance until I start to get nervous and forget to fire my elbow. If I haltingly cast a fishing line, it get's messed up. Ditto for the club! Cast the # 3 PP at the ball or throw it or....

My hope is to make this casting automatic and forget all the underlying essential instructional geometries and simply play golf which must be the state of mind the greats played with in competition, imho.

I want a player's mind when playing, not an engineers.

I will let you know how it goes, you can be sure. :thumright

ICT