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Maximum Compression
Looking for clarification on Sustaining the Line of Compression. Assuming that the sweet spot is moving on an inclined plane during the impact interval, and the cluface is square to that plane at separation, what factors will provide maximum compression or compression leakage? Assume contact on sweet spot at impact and same clubhead speed at separation.
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Nice question. I've got a few factors for your consideration:
1. The loft of the club. Added loft itself will "leak". Intentional by design compression leakage. Although some backspin is necessary for flight. But we're talking theoretically I think. So theoretically shouldnt the direction the face points three dimensionally and the line of compression be one and the same for total compression.........which could imply negative loft in some instances? 2. Hinge Action. Horizontal is "closing only, no layback". Vertical is "layback only no closing". Angled is a bit of both depending upon the plane angle. As the angle approaches perfectly Vertical, Angled Hinging approaches the characteristics of Vertical Hinging (layback only no closing). Vice versa for the situation where the plane angle approaches Horizontal.....Angled Hinging approaches the characteristics of Horizontal Hinging (closing only with no layback). Which should probably make for a third factor ... 3. The Plane Angle. 4. How bout the Angle of Attack? That would cause the Line of Compression to be divergent from the target line wouldnt it? 5. Ball position vis a vis low point? I dunno but my head hurts already. What does trackman say, Max? I hopped on a Flightscope the other day. Interesting but not enough info on that particular unit maybe. Either that or I didnt know where to look. The thing that really jumped out at me was how constant my swing speed was for different amounts of effort.......made me start swinging slower and better right away. My apologies for the digression. |
2-D-0
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Thanks to OB and the others for responses. In the TrackMan world, the "equivalent" to a measurement of ball "compression" is what is known as "Smash Factor", which is initial ball speed divided by clubhead speed at impact. The lower the loft, the greater the potential for this number to be. So a driver can be as high as 1.5, and short irons dip below 1.4 as a "best case scenario". The Dynamic Loft is the vertical angle of the "normal" to the clubface, relative to the ground, during impact. But it is this loft relative to the vertical Attack Angle which is the loft that the ball "feels". This is known as the Spinloft. Regarding Homer's Clubface Lay-Back...if the clubface does lay or tilt backwards from impact to separation, relative to the clubhead arc, increasing the Spinloft, then, all else the same, the compression will be less than if the Spinloft had remained the same during the interval. This seems pretty straightforward, if I am interpreting Clubface Lay-Back correctly.
But 2-C-1, Swingers Hinging says, in essence, that for maximum compression, the clubface must rotate around the same center as the shaft during the interval. I am looking for clarification of this. |
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For theoretical total compression the point of contact between ball and face must remain connected ( Homer said "as if welded together") during the impact interval. No "wobble" so to speak. But for lofted clubs the ball will roll on the face to varying degrees as you mention. Which Homer assumes to be the case in 2-C-1. Wobble or leakage due to loft. That slightly glancing blow due to loft aside to maintain the point of contact between ball and face throughout the interval requires a uniform motion or arc. Meaning that the angled clubshaft and the closing clubface are both rotating around the same center. At the same rate. Horizontal Hinging , closing only with no layback does not add loft dynamically during the impact interval , which would deaden the blow , compression leakage. Something that can be used intentionally to great effect on short shots but is the hackers floating tee ball shot. Normally the result of "Steering" the clubface square to the hole in a misguided attempt to add a linear, inline , square to square blow to a ball that should be hit with an arcing clubhead and a closing face. I must admit to not being able to draw the clubfaces center for vertical hinging. I go all foggy on that bit of business. Homer did these drawings however.......I wish they'd made the book. Words do fail when describing geometry. Angled Hinging it is said , has no center for the clubfaces motion...... Maybe Lynn could explain or draw it out some day. |
Thanks, OB. Yeah, I guess that's the essence of my question....why would a clubface that is open to the clubhead arc at impact and square at separation (horizontal hinging) allow the original contact points to remain intact through the interval but a clubface square to the clubhead arc at both impact and separation (angles hinging) would not?
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For additional clarification, there is another way to look at Hinge Action compared to the "Normal to the Path" rotation of the Clubface. In "Normal to the Path" rotation, the Clubface stays aligned to the Clubhead Orbit. This causes a corresponding Clubshaft Rotation around the Longitudinal Center of Gravity of the Golfclub. Hinging changes that. For Horizontal Hinging, the Longitudinal COG and Shaft, at Impact, are vertical, one above the other, due to the Mandatory Flat Left Wrist. They Both Rotate, together around the Hinge Pin but maintain their Vertical relationship to the Horizontal Plane (the associated Plane). This is very different than the Shaft continuing to rotate around the COG of the Golfclub as it would in a "Normal to the Face/Path" which is "Swiveling through Impact". In Angled Hinging, we have the same geometry except that the Hinge Pin is angled and the Longitudinal Center of Gravity of the Golfclub and Shaft maintain their relationship to the Angled Plane (Associated Angled Plane). Trackman identifies "Spin Loft". This is probably very good to identify whenever you don't use Hinging. When not using Hinging, the Ball will roll on the clubface. TGM has such cases, for example, the Lob Shot, etc. For anyone using Hinging, Clubface Loft is considered at separation. TGM states that Vertical Line of Flight is a resultant force, and is a line bisecting the Line of Compression and the Rebound Direction. The Rebound Direction is 90 degrees to the line of compression (Angle of Approach, Angle of Attack). When striking a golf ball, if you lose the line of compression before separation, then you introduce scattered force vectors and it will result in scattered rebound vectors which will result in scattered resultant Force Vectors. That would be a Mis-Hit, poor execution unless done intentionally, and that will change the Vertical Line of Flight, Loft. TGM considers "Smash Factor". It is not the quality of compression but how much of the ball was compressed. See Below: Also note that each line receives maximum compression.  When considering Layback, the Clubface is Laying Back relative to the Hinge. This is different than the "Normal to the Path" clubface layback that Trackman calculates because the Clubface is also closing about the Hinge Pin. In Angled Hinging, Layback does not necessarily lose compression because the Impact and separation points remain the same, but it will compress less of the ball by about 1/10,000 of an inch. Rather, Layback tilts the balls spin Axis. |
Pennsylvania Six Five O. O. O.
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Know what you mean, its a head scratcher when you think of it in those terms. The compensation for the slice tendency of Angled Hinging is a slightly closed clubface at Address, so no doubt its got to do with a "divergence" between face and path. Like the ball wants to be "cradled" so its doesnt roll off the face. Im an old hockey player so it seems like that to me.......another game with a similar implement. Ive always wanted to hit one of those curved face golf clubs from yesteryear. Curved hockey sticks were the cats pajamas when they first came out. What once was a muffin turned into a rocket. |
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I'm very comfortable with my understanding of how the impact collision between ball and clubface create Initial Launch Conditions and the resulting ball flight, which comes not only from TrackMan, but from the many scientists who have researched this. I doubt that the book can add anything to the knowledge of the distinguished scientists who are the present-day experts in this field. I am simply just trying to understand what Kelley meant when he wrote the things he did. Here's some measurable conditions of the impact collision which nobody is exempted from and some traditional golf instruction terms to describe them.....During the collision, the clubhead is moving. The direction of this movement at separation has a vertical direction, relative to the ground, called the Angle of Attack, and a horizontal direction along the ground, relative to the Target Line, called Clubhead Path. The "normal" (dictionary term) to the clubface at separation also has a vertical direction, relative to the Attack Angle, called Spinloft, and a horizontal direction, relative to the Target Line, called Clubface Angle. This is the language that I speak. Is is possible that someone could describe, in my "native" tongue, what Kelley is describing in 2-C-1? |
Almost the same language. The horizontal component would be called angle or arch of approach, depending on what you're looking at. It may cause confusion if you label the horizontal component clubhead path. What do you then call the three dimensional (true) clubhead path?
Have the trackman researchers explained why Bubba has a much better smash factor than Tiger? |
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Lets list em all. That'd help things. Im not the right guy to be doing this but I'll throw out a few:
Angle of Attack = Angle of Attack Target Line = Target Line Vertical Swing Plane = Plane Angle (tgm) Horizontal Swing Plane = Plane Line or Base Line Who's got some more...........before I screw it up. OK Ill go out on a limb.. True Path = Clubhead line of Flight , clubhead orbit? Low Point = Low Point P.S. Nice illustrations there. Notice how the Club head orbit is inscribed on the face of the inclined plane etc etc Is there a visual equivalent to True Path described in Trackman? |
Now THIS is good.....a willingness to "translate" TGM into other golf instruction languages. TrackMan is not going away. Neither is physical law. TrackMan is not the "evil one", and not the only entity that has done or is doing hard research on the impact collision. In fact, TrackMan has added very little to our basic understanding of the collision to what was presented by the team of internationally-renowned scientists who conducted the research from "Search For The Perfect Swing". What TrackMan has added, among other things, is the geometry of the swing plane through the impact zone, which you would think would be right up any TGM'ers alley.
Anyhoo, there is no TrackMan term for the 3D clubhead path, just the horizontal and vertical directions during impact. I would simply call it the Clubhead Arc. And I was under the impression that the TGM definition of Target Line is the intended starting direction of the ball flight, not necessarily the straight line from the ball at address to where you want the ball to end up, which is the "traditional" definition.?? Also, it doesn't seem like TGM recognizes the fact that, in a swing of even moderate force, the shaft tip deflects downward, allowing the COG of the clubhead to align with the axis of the shaft at impact. Specifically, you can draw a straight line from the butt section of the shaft to the sweet spot of the clubhead. Why then, is there a distinction between the "shaft plane" and the "sweet spot plane". Back to Swinger's Hinging....I guess I'm going to have to take Kelley at face value...which is to say, for maximum compression, and to keep the original contact points intact throughout the interval, the horizontal direction that the clubface is pointing, relative to the horizontal direction that the clubhead is traveling, must change in a closing direction during the impact interval. Any idea, in degrees, how much Kelley thought that the clubface closed during the interval? In other words, how open should the clubface be at address compared to fix for horizontal hinging? |
The Shaft Tip is not directed Downward. The Hosel is Directed Upward. We swing the COG of the Clubhead and the COG of the Clubhead stays on Orbit. In other words, the shaft is complying with the pull of centrifugal force on the center of gravity of the clubhead.
Hinging doesn't close the face, the pivot closes the face. Hinging determines which of the 3 associated Planes the Clubface is aligned with while rotating through the Impact Interval. |
Just a note that the folks at TrackMan have been trying to simplify the language and have changed a couple of definitions to make it easier to discuss without learning new terminology.
Swing plane (formerly vertical swing plane): a measure of how vertical the swing is, where a high value represents a very up and down (steep) swing plane and a low value a relatively flat (to the ground) arc. More technically, it is the angle made between the ground and the plane of club head trajectory at the bottom of the swing arc. Swing direction (formerly horizontal swing plane): the orientation of the swing arc, relative to the target line, where positive means to the right, negative means to the left. More technically, it is the horizontal direction the club head is traveling in at the bottom of the swing arc Launch direction (formerly horizontal launch angle): the initial direction of the ball relative to target line. Positive means to the right, negative means to the left Hopefully this will help in our understanding as the new terms are very much in line with our studies IMHO. Kevin |
Thanks, Kev. I don't care so much for those "new" terms. Perhaps TM bowed, overly so, to customer pressure? I think I would go with
Horizontal Plane Angle Vertical Plane Angle Horizontal Launch Angle Vertical Launch Angle Horizontal Path Angle Vertical Path Angle Even simpler, no? |
They're still wrong. Why don't they get their own terminology instead of bastardizing another for their own Corporate GREED?
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I have no opinion. I simply shared what TrackMan posted in their newsletter.
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Mr Kelley did in fact describe this toe drop, COG phenomenon you mention. Its even seen in photos of a demonstration he conducted available on this site. What the heck could anyone have against Trackman? What sort of a person gets mad at a Machine. |
Why get angry at a "machine"? Because they will say and do anything to sell it. Lie, cheat and steal. Redefine, omit and misdirect information. Anything to make their machine seem worth the price. They're no better than American and Canadian Politicians. It's all about the money.
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I'm confused, MI.
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Sooner or later, we will discuss every golf-related thing in light of TGM, here, and Raquel Welch, and we will have a damn fine time doing it! :) Now Max, why don't you just accept the fact that you don't have to argue with us to be our friend? Would you like some Doritos? A beer? (12 points on Weight Watchers-4 0z, Merde!) Let's practice, shall we, and I'll begin. "I think TrackMan sounds like an interesting attempt to creatively describe...." And you say... "I think TGM agrees with this here using this term but says something different there...." See, no bloodshed. "Peace On Earth To People of Good Will!" ICT |
I really didn't follow any of that, Innercityteacher.
But I did not throw out ONE "dig" at TGM. NOT ONE. I asked a simple question seeking to clarify an aspect of the book. Unfortunately, simple answers never seem to come back. Often, "answers" are verbatim quoting from the book. But if I was totally clear on what the book says, I wouldn't be asking the question. So I took the liberty of explaining my "language", and asked if someone would be kind enough to explain it to me using terms that I am more familiar with. Look, I teach for a living. I pride myself on being able to explain things in a multitude of different ways. In ways a 6th grader could understand, if necessary. And if I understood the book as well as Homer himself, that's what I'd be doing for others. |
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I thought you guys in the mid west considered politics to be all about winning? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMgyi57s-A4 (Ah , D just between us girls, i didnt exactly write "machine" if you look carefully) |
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Homer did a great job in saying: "The direction of the ball will always be practically at right angles to the Clubface and square to the leading edge of the Clubface at separation" That works for me and solved the problem of being taught by the PGA all those years that the ball started on the path... For myself, I will define practically as the majority. That seems to work with both TrackMan and D-Plane and is explainable to a 2nd grader. =================================== I understand science has also proven that it is face angle at the point where the ball is fully compressed, not separation. So what? I noticed some bonehead posted when he learned that he completely changed his teaching philosophy the next day. Give me a break. I'm learning G.O.L.F. I don't give a crap about learning to win a debate. I'm so tired of this silly bickering in an attempt to do just that. If you want to learn about The Golfing Machine and Lynn Blake's ideas on it's application, you are in the right place. If you want to learn D-Plane and "modern science", you probably aren't. Kevin |
Well said KevCarter,
This summer, while there were a summer golf scool for kids at our club, I was hitting balls next to a couple of kids, around the age of 13. One of them had a pretty good motion but he was slicing the ball excessively (which isn't unusual after 3 days of golf). I asked him if he knew what caused the slice. He didn't. Then I explained to him how side spin worked and how the clubface angle and the club path angle affected where the ball started and ended. "Have you played soccer?". "Yes". "Do you know how to kick a curved ball then?" "Yes." "Well, it's the same thing with a golf club basically. "The ball starts close to where the face points bla-bla-bla ". After absorbing my 90 seconds D-plane explanation the kid proceeded to hit 8 yard draws straight down the middle. I couldn't believe my eyes :) |
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I know you have a very scientific mind, and I needed someone like you to verify my simplistic explanation. Now I KNOW I'm on the right track! :golf: I put together booklets full of TGM and other golf stuff I learn around the web. There are some excellent visuals that really help with my explanations, and several you can sort of mix and match based upon who you are working with. We have all seen all of them... Here is another simple explanation from a friend on the Champions Tour. He is a TGM afficionado along with studying the new science as it relates to his own swing. He says it is so different out there right now because the new balls and clubs don't want to curve, they just want to go straight. Here is what he boiled it down to and it is working great for him in the real world: D-PLANE & BALL FLIGHT LAWS SIMPLIFIED • Ball starts closer to face and curves away from path • Hit the ball on the inside to draw • Hit the ball in the center for straight ball • Hit the ball on the outside for fade He says the 2011 Pro V is even straighter than in 2010! He now trys to go with a straight ball every swing and he used to work it around the course as Hogan and all the great players used to... BTW, like myself, he LOVES the swing of YODA and when we talk golf swing that is the model we refer to. Kevin |
MAX, what I was trying to say was that....
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When we explain stuff to people let's be friendly and look at including other points of view. That's it. If I misunderstood you, than I apologize. I feel an emotional attachment to something that has lowered my hcp. to 10.1 from 21. When you say something like 'I'm surprised TGM doesn't say this or that...." it feels like you are taking a shot at something that is pretty damn effective when all you need to do is to say something like "how is that explained in terms of TGM?" I think the Raquel Welch line was one of my funnier lines. :eyes: ICT |
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Do you think Ball Makers changed the way the Ball "rolls-up" the Clubface or does it make more sense to consider a change in the resiliency of the Ball Core? |
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I trust what this gentleman tells me as he is experiencing it daily with both his own and his students (Tour Players) swings. He's like me, not a very scientific mind, but understands the geometry and the fact that people get different feels from proper mechanics. As I said earlier, I'm interested in the real world application of Homer Kelley's work, and that is why I am here to learn from the best. I believe that advances in equipment may change some of Mr. Kelley's ideas as far as debating his EXACT words, but it still holds up in the real world of improving golfers... Next someone asks what changes to try to trip me up. As I posted a couple of posts ago, direction is determined by the clubface at maximum compression rather than separation. If that is true, it invalidates a couple of words, but DOES NOT change the way we teach or perform. IMHO What else changes? I don't know. Kevin |
Kevin,
I agree with your friend on the Champions Tour. The Balls are getting straighter. But why? Will the Ball makers tell us? If they do, then what do you think they'd say? |
Great question Daryl. I'm afraid I have no clue on the answer...
Kevin |
I don't come here to learn about "The D Plane" or "modern science". I get that info elsewhere. I came here to better understand what Kelley meant, as I said. The question that I asked to begin this thread was about "maximum compression" and 2-C-1. I guess the kind of answer that I was looking for, which I will provide from my interpretation of the book, would go something like this.....
For maximum compression, the clubface must close, relative to the direction that it is traveling, during the impact interval. This is a horizontal hinge motion of the clubface, and is required to keep the original contact point between clubface and ball intact throughout the interval. Also, the clubface must not "lay back" during the interval, which would add loft, permitting compression to "leak" away. Now if I were to explain D Plane to a 6th grader, I think I'd go with this.......When the clubface hits the ball, the clubface is moving on a line, and the clubface is also pointing on a line. If you take your pencil and connect those two lines with another line, that new line is called "The D Plane". Not so scary, eh? One more.....As someone who teaches golf every day to the masses, I can attest that the "new" balls still curve. Sometimes drastically so :laughing1 . Initially, at least |
Doggone it if Clampett had just been properly informed that the point of seperation did not determine the direction of flight, he woulda hung onto that eight shot lead and won the open.
Millions have been deceived due to that misconception.:) |
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In regard to the last bit .......Im trying to picture that. Do you mean one line is arching and the other is straight ish and you connect them at the far ends in a three dimensional drawing? Or are you talking 2D, plan view? Not being a jerk or anything, I really dont know what you mean but it sounds so simple. In regard to Horizontal its not just any old amount of face "closing relative to the direction it is traveling". The face via the left hand maintains a vertical relationship to the Horizontal Basic Plane , the ground. It can over done or underdone , the identification of the three Basic Planes bringing precision to the execution. |
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I know how to compress the ball to my maximum limit!
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Would you like a Dorito, Max? :eyes: ICT |
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Regarding the other bit, both lines are straight, just like in TGM. My visual explanation was the 2D, on paper, version. For a 3D version, I would say that the two lines are clothes lines in your back yard. If you drape a sheet over the two lines, the sheet is "The D Plane". |
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I was only kidding about Clampett. Trying to show the miniscule nature of the difference between compression and point of seperation.
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I'm just starting to investigate the D-plane. I actually have found it quite beneficial to my understanding of what's going on through impact and any resulting ball curvature.
I've also found it seems to explain my predominant draw/hook ball flights from the summer. As I've begun to play the ball back of low point (i.e. up plane) and take a divot, I've hit shots that I would have sworn were right down target line/plane line (one and the same for me aligned neutral or square) with club face square that drew/hooked. Well, d-plane predicts that (maybe TGM, too, but I didn't understand). So, for me, my understanding has increased and I have a better thought as to how to align (swing plane slightly left of target line) to get a straight ball. Having said that, I still think TGM provides the best "how to" around! As others have said, if Homer was slightly off on the precise nature of the clubhead/ball collision, I don't think that detracts from the practical results of applying the components that put that clubhead into motion. So, for me, TGM and more precisely Alignment Golf provide the swing mechanics that I want to learn and apply to improve my ball striking and ultimately reduce my scores. The d-plane has helped me at least better understand what is going on through impact (despite what my prior "knowledge" and feel led me to believe) and understand that I HAD made the swing I intended but got results that would have led me to change things I didn't need to change...I just need to work with slight changes to alignment! Again, as others have said, I think all of golf benefits from the search for a "unified field" theory of the swing. Facts gathered from Track Man (clubhead path, etc., more so than the "predicted" ball flights which should just be observed) need to be incorporated and explained by TGM if we are to be able to continue to expand our knowledge and understanding of the golf swing and resulting ball flights. Just my 2 cents on the topic... |
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