please rip my swing apart.
 

Hello , Please rip my swing a part.:happy3:

Can someone tell me why my right shoulder gets high a t imapct and doesnt stay down, this was a better swing, lately my impact shaft lean was not as good. I have trouble getting my left wedge in front of my hip on the way down. Which i believe is the reason for some throw away. Also am working on extensor action on takeaway.:eyes:
Camera on the face on view is pointing down a little due to not having enough space.

thankyou

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RpTxuvRByWA

Lots of good stuff here man . . . . as I see it . . . . I think if you're going to be a hitter you really need a lot less arm swing on the backstroke. Feel like you you never let your right arm bend and you only take it back to belt high. Film it and see what it looks like.

I think that stuff you mention about the shoulder tilt is due to the lack of rotation you have in the hips and shoulders. You do a nice job of staying close early but you never start turning your hips and shoulder until after impact. Your shoulders looked really closed at impact. You want them square to open I'd say. So basically your JUST tilting . . . turn AND tilt. I thought your impact lines looked nice. Get an impact bag and take it back to waist high and then BUST THE CRAP OUT OF IT.

The shoulders staying closed are gonna get the face open and everything looking right . . . culprit to me is ther not the right wrist bend so much.

As usual, 12 Piece's analysis is amazing. Mac, I hope you learn as much from it as I did. Wonderful stuff. Mac, good looking motion!!! :salut:

Kevin

good stuff
 

Bucket is right on. Golly with your youthful strong physique you don't need to take it back far. Remember acquired motion is almost as long as the complete deal.
Got them hitter's forearms.

Big forearms and stronmg but also great flexibility. Bet you could wallup it with a swingers action and not have to change the top position.

How about taking advantage of all that force and doing the ole swing the butt end behind the ball and uncock and roll the left wrist through impact with rythm? Might solve the pivot problem on its own, especially getting the magic number 4 going.

Caveat: not an expert!

Left Handed Swinger
 

Mac,
First I believe that 12 Piece was meaning left arm instead of right arm. I could be wrong - however, I think he was thinking from a right handed person perspective.

Secondly,
Your lead shoulder (right shoulder) I don't really see as an issue as far as it's height. Let's just say it's not your biggest problem.

Here is the quick internet version:
1) The head down "forever" needs to go.
2) The video quality is not that good - is your left hand coming off at the top of the swing?
3) Not sure I like the trail hand grip
4) No pivot through impact - allows hands to move through first and the clubface to close (shots go right) - you've offset that with the trail wrist scooping through - shouldn't be facing that much skyward after impact (however that makes the ball go more left offsetting the pivot stopping that creates the right shot. So you get a straight shot - sometimes.

Better downward blow - hits the ball more left - lagging clubhead hits the ball more left - better rotation of the pivot helps the ball go right and the proper motion through and after impact eliminates the palm up trail hand after impact and allows the ball go right. All that adds up to a better movement and straight shots.

Guys thanks so much for the comments.

Mike O I think your right on with everything. Yes my left hand does come off sometimes at the top. sorry for the video but this is indoors and light is an issue with theses cameras. The" no pivot" through impact I agree but I was "told" that I was spinning my hips through impact so I have been trying to quiet lower body. I had a lot of axis tilt at impact and I was told this was due to my hips spinning fast. The trail hand scoop I HATE,,thats what I feel more than anything...so annoying. Im gonna get that pivot back and see what it looks like.

Thanks again.

Dingdong is correct . . . . I was typing right handed . . . sorry . . . .

Mike O
I was just thinking isnt that left palm up after impact due to no swivel? If I swiveled then wouldnt that turn my left hand over ?

Right Or Left Translation?
 

Sure would be a lot easier if we would do this thread in right-handed terms. That convention has been the policy of this site since inception. There is much potential for error -- and a lot of 'lead hand' and 'trail arm' nonsense on the way -- if we don't. Ideally, thoughtful posts would then translate across all Forums.

On the other hand, this is macgolf's thread, and it is all about his own left-handed golf stroke.

So, what say you, macgolf? In this thread only . . .

Do we translate Right or Left?

I'm cool either way.

:neutral:

I can understand right handed, been dealing with it my whole life. It doesn't bother me at all if you guys speak in righty terms that is why when I made the post, I spoke in righty terms. Maybe that was a mistake :)

Yes & No
 

Mac,
Those are questions that require a lengthy answer to understand the issues and work on it by yourself. In the next few days I'll reply back with my perspective.

I think you gotta shorten that arm swing and get your right shoulder trajectory to work LESS VERTICAL and MORE OUT. I'll follow up with another post. But look at Hogan's right shoulder shoulder motion it is working down yes . . . but also OUT. If you are going to be a Hitter . . . You need to understand the backstop and the Launching Pad . . . . Are you trying to do Stack and Tilt? Your right shoulder (left or trail) works too vertical to the ground. That's more of a "spinning the fly wheel motion" ala swinging. The Hitter's shoulder right shoulder should stay HIGH ala Hogan and then work down AND OUT. Have a look at this.

Mac, I'm sure that Mike O will explain the issue in detail if he has time enough after shoveling snow.



In the meantime, maybe this short answer can help clear some fog. The Right Palm Up after Impact is due to not Hinging through Impact, and not Hinging is due in part from keeping your Left Arm glued to your chest.

Not Hogan's Top position . . . hands basically in-line with the right shoulder . . . no need for any extra "Top Arc-y" stuff . . . the hands are in position to be MOVED down their path . . . efficiency. Shorten that arm swing if you are going to Hit (Swing for that matter too).



Now have a look at this picture at start down . . . . From the top he is moving his right shoulder down but "ON TOP" of the left arm (Primary Lever Assembly) . . . the right shoulder is on top of the left arm and pressuring it DOWN PLANE. Your shoulder motion seems to want to work UNDERNEATH the left arm. You need more OUT in your shoulder motion. Some of that will get cleaned up with some sequencing if you shorten the arm swing and get your hands DEEPER. Rather than thinking long backswing up . . . think of long backswing DEEEEEEP.

Then you need to feel like your going to take the tip of your right shoulder (left for you) and connect it to that dimple on top of your left elbow (right for you). The right shoulder stays on top of the left arm as it moves down and out. From that on top position you have something to fire the accumulator (#1 Tricep against . . . backstop . . . launching pad).



You can see here the right shoulder is high . . . not working underneath . . . more working down and out but on top of the left arm.



Here's a shoulder working more UNDER . . . swingy . . .



Versus this . . .

Hi Bucket and Happy Holidays. Hey, do you have any pictures of Hogan Swinging a Club at the exact moment of Impact? Close Ups? Face-On view?

Mac-you must put a lot of work into that--wish I could find that "top" position (although I'm interested to hear how you respond/progress with the recommendations regarding shortening to hitter's length). My only observation, and it is hard to tell from the video, but I often need to check that I retain my rear knee flex longer to help guide my shoulder downplane. To me, this move feels more like an abdominal crunch downward and less like a squat thrust or lunge forward. When this doesn't work, I sometimes envision someone pressing against my rear shoulder at address which reminds me that the shoulder needs to go downplane...and it is a much easier move the assembly downplane when I assist with a flexed (which might feel like "flexing") knee. The comments regarding the "scooping" might also be be taken care of by keeping the flexed knee and downplane shoulder together moving the wedges longer and further forward through the ball down the baseline. Good luck.

Hogan thought he did this . . . .



But he REALLY did this . . .





Right shoulder still on top of the left arm not working "underneath it" . . .



Under . . . shifted out to the right closed . . . working too vertical . . .

Thanks again,
12 piece and daryl that was real good. I completely understand what you are saying 12 piece. The over swinging at the top is such a problem for me, I work very hard at it and I cant do it. Im gonna try some of your thoughts. Like the thought of keeping my left on top of my right on the way down.

Ahh, so good Bucket but so hard of a habit to break.

Hey 12
I was messing around with getting more "out" and "smack" cant believe the difference. Crushing the ball .Im going to film it tomorrow and check it out. Thanks again for the input.

Great! The shoulder motion is 3 dimensional right . . . .down . . . out .. . . forward . . . you already KNOW how to do the down part . . . . you just need to get the OUT dimension. Monitor that sucker on video . . . sounds like you over cooked the earlier changes that were suggested to you . . . so you must be pretty good at changing stuff . . . so be sure you take the prescribed amount of pills and not the whole bottle. Just keep very much in mind that the motion of the right shoulder (left for you) is part of the power package and pivot . . . right shoulder geometry very much has an impact on hand path and the plane of the arm swing.

Good luck with it . . . you have some really good pieces to work with.

Mac,
What's the club you are swinging in the video?

Below I've made a grid of the golf ball with the numbers representing the back of the ball - I've labeled the three columns based on where you feel you want to direct your force or feel the impact in your effort to strike the ball, The columns represent - either on the inside, the Center or the outside portion. Then the rows are labeled - from top to bottom of the ball. With whatever club you were using in this video - tell me where you feel like your clubface comes into the ball when you are hitting that club.

I couldn't get the grid to show up the way I wanted - just realize the intent was three columns and 5 rows - equal distance apart representing the back half of the golf ball from top to bottom.

Inside Center Outside
1 2 3 Top of ball
4 5 6 1/2 between top and equator
7 8 9 equator
10 11 12 1/2 between equator and bottom
13 14 15 bottom of ball

HI,
If I understand the grid right I would say more between 10 11 or even 13 14. It seems like my eye goes to the back portion of the ball (for me left backside)That iron is a 7

This is a great diagnosis in my opinion, of whats going on right at the moment of truth. With the reason for it mechanically . Cause and effect followed by a compensation. Namely a Pivot stall causing the face to close which is compensated for by Steering a little scoopy Vertical Hinge. Which when timed right will get you a straight shot but with a loss of compression due to the layback of Vertical Hinging/Steering. When not timed correctly you'll miss it both ways ......the tell tale sign of a compensated motion. Something that happens to us all. But knowing the root cause will help you cause you'll tend to revisit this same business over and over. Believe me.

Maybe I got Mike O. wrong I dont know but thats the way it looks to my eyes anyways. The correction being the effort to try to hit shots that start (for you) left and then draw back to the middle. That will fix your Path and your Hinge Action. Inside out approach (as opposed to an inside stroke, cross line stroke) with Horizontal Hinging.


You will find easy power this way. Total compression. Or your money back from Mike. O.

A Start - Using the right handed terminology
 

Mac,
STEP #1
There's a lot of items and relationships to cover. However, the intent or where you feel you direct the force in relation to the ball is a fundamental aspect of the movement - and the real cause for a few of your mechanical issues. While we'd need to cover many aspects - they are all related - however the neurological level is probably the best beginning point. It's a major factor in why you start releasing early, why the "right" hand scoops through impact and beyond.

Let me assume that you were using an 8 iron in the video. The sense that you should have for a contact point on the ball with the clubface should be #5 on my grid. That's not where the face actually contacts the ball - that's where you feel as if the face contacts the ball.

Here's why - you don't sense the clubface - hold the club and close your eyes - you don't feel loft - you are sensing the longitudinal center of gravity of the club - the center of mass in the length wise direction of the club. That's a straight line. If you hang a club from the grip end - then the shaft won't hang straight down because the clubface is offset. However, if you hang a weighted string from the grip - it will show you the "longitudinal center of gravity" of that club. Where that touches and passes through the face is the "sweetspot". You are sensing that straight line.

To simulate that straight line - you could use a dowel or flip your club around and grip it with the grip end down at the ball. Now, if you are going to simulate impact and hit the ball before lowpoint - with the shaft i.e. the longitudinal center of gravity leaning forward - you'll see that the contact point feel is above the equator.

Your issue is that you are trying to contact your feel of the club - that straight line longitudinal center of gravity - below the equator - requiring a shaft that is leaning away from the target. That effort shows up in the video - A) 1/2 down the early release, B) the shallow clubhead approach, C) the "right hand" flipping through.

They are other issues to cover in your movement - this is the first one that you have to understand and have. The feel of the ball compressed between the longitudinal center of gravity and the ground - which in most of our minds translates to the ball being compressed between the clubface and the ground - that's the "feel". Obviously, since you can't feel loft - the actual impact point IS below the equator since the club has loft on it, creating backsping and ball flight - however the important criteria is the procedural effort of sensing the longitudinal center of gravity hitting the ball before low point - thereby leaning forward and thereby providing the sense that you are contacting the ball above the equator with a descending blow.

In summary - step one is to not have your idea of the face contacting the ball below the equator - you need to have the thought of the face contacting the ball above the equator - short the shaft the more above the equator. Let's start there and see if that makes sense to you.

Guys can you just get a little more specific with the pivot? When I see the pivot on the downswing I see my weight move laterally almost too much . The problem I see with my pivot is not opening up my hips enough at impact. So the question is am I not turning my hips at impact (opening up) ? Because I see that there is definitely a decent move in zone 1 in shifting my weight. I was told I was "spinning" my hips too much and that I was way too open at impact so at the end of summer I was working on slowing this down through impact and now it looks jammed.

Again thanks for helping me out its much appreciated.

Thanks Mike
I understand completely. I will try this tomorrow and play around with it. Im very technical so the more technical the better :)Thank you for taking out your time to type all that. You guys are great and it is appreciated. I ll give you an update.

Fundamentally, the movement of the pivot is an effect. You are not going to get there if you just superficially impose "good pivot" moves. Change the causes of the pivot action to change the pivot.

I agree with Mike O-so-goofy to an extent on the intention thingy . . . You can see yourself "backing up" your head to match this intention.

The other thing I notice is that arm swing deal . . . watch your motion from face on . . . . you have "super-foool-us" arm swing . . . watch how it carries your head out of the "box" drawn on on the screen. Then as you proceed down you seem to be doing two things 1. using your pivot to match your intent of where to strike the ball 2. trying to seek "equilibrium" or "balance" from where that arm swing deal tipped you over toward the target. Stop the video at the top of your swing . . . if you could draw some some lines coming out of your eyes like Superman X-ray vision . . . you'd be blasting a hole in the floor WAAAAAAAAAAAY back behind the ball . . . So it's hard to hit what you can't see . . . that may be part of the reason why your head moves forward with that overswing . . you want to SEE THE BALL . . . Keep in mind all your depth perception and balance sensor thingies are in your eyes and ears . . . that's another great reason to have a centered head . . . so you keep all them balance sensors and eyeballs in your mellon focused on the ball . . I'm not prescribing ZERO head movement . . . but yours is so excessive due to the over swing that instead of just being able to rip at the ball from the top you are having to recalibrate everything to 1. see it and 2. priopreceptively (word?) find it with your minds eye in 3-D space.

You are 100% correct on your hip motion . . . you have zero hip turn . . . basically you are just tilting your spine backwards.

So I'll piggy back (or goat back) on Mikey's post . . . a couple of thoughts . . .

1. In addition to the intent of striking above the equator . . . on your backstroke feel like you are trying to see UNDERNEATH THE FRONT SIDE OF THE BALL . . And feel like you are taking your arms only to about hip high.

2. Practice putting the ball WAAAAAAAAAAAY up in your stance event off or in front of your big right toe lead toe or whatever since you are left handed . . . if you can hit down on that ball which is way up in your stance you CAN'T dive backwards with your upper body . . . you'll have to keep your head from backing up and you'll have to "open up" "go forward AND ROTATE" to get to that ball. So put it way up there in drill and try to hit pulls or pull cuts and take a divot.

Hogan right shoulder--question for 12 Piece (and all)

To me, Hogan's motion would feel a lot OTT. Is it because of the sequencing (hips, then shoulders with club lagging) that this position actually works?

Also, since this is the Hitters forum, is Hogan's right shoulder position correct for hitters?

I definitely agree with everything. The head thing is def related I believe to over swinging but I do see a lot of tour players heads moving down a little and even stay down through impact. THe backing up I would think is no having enough out like you said. That shoulder shouldnt move down and tilt my spine that much. Im going to film again tonight and work on some stuff. eqauator thingee etc..

This is profound MIke. You got any more thoughts on this particular business?

Me, my pivot got better when I had a feel that I could work....the feel of dragging , Drag Loading, longitudinal. The Pivot Sliding , then Turning and all the time Pulling the Club the LCOG with a strong sense of loading at the left arm , grip connection.....the last three fingers in the left hand. (#2PP) . You know the ones Hogan for some reason really liked.

But thats just me talking........ so please share what you're thinking cause I like the line of thinking you got going here. Automation or whatever you wanna call it. Cool. Copping positions doesnt work at all, that for sure.

Ya, that's very Zen-like Golf Mike-O. Pivot Ying and Yang.