Do You Really Exist
 

To almost all hitters out there I am going to say I do not believe that you are really hitting at all.

One the simple premise that once you use Standard wrist action you are swinging, which would mean that if you took the club back it would be very difficult to ever reach top, forget about end

So when we look at tour players as our models who actually uses single wrist action?

Just because we have strong right forearm participation does not mean we are hitting. We still use Centrifugal force which makes it SWINGING

I think far more of us are swingers that have alot of right forearm in there. The Right Forearm is the magic of TGM and if you are reading this forum you use it.

In order to be a hitter you have to be able to essentially overpower CF, and stress the shaft. Far more of us swing then we would like to admit

Cools I know what you mean, but believe me Hitters do exist as does Single Wrist Action.......... In regard to the latter are you saying there's no such thing as a 10-2-D grip for instance? On a hitter or swinger? Wrist Action alone does not define Hitting or Swinging , per say, necessarily. Compensations do happen.

I do agree that golf for the Swinger is still a very right sided business but there's a big difference in the direction of force being applied by the Hitter and Swinger on the handle. 90 degrees to be specific. I also agree that for the guy who loads the knuckle (Rotated Pressure Point) and Drag Loads with a lot of Longitudinal Acceleration and gets late into a Delayed Release it'd be very difficult for Muscular Thrust (on the aft of the shaft) to overpower what he and CF have already put in place. That clubhead does get whipping around awfully quickly. The further he gets into it the more his Right side would be chasing trying to catch up and then overpower. Perhaps if you had "three right hands"?. But this assumes a lot and there are Four Barrel Hitters out there, guys who Drag then Drive.

I also would agree that pure Drive Loading is not all that common in Total Motion but Drive Loading is only a form of Hitting. A pure form which is diametrically opposed to Drag Loading making them both excellent basic patterns, places to start or places to stay forever. Defined by their unique Alignments and directions of loading and thrusting in Startdown.

Id say every good golfer can both Hit and Swing to some degree, perhaps without knowing it. What about Tigers "stinger" or anyones "knock down" shot for that matter? Right Arm only putting or chipping.

Here's something Ive been noodling over in regard to Hitting vs Swinging. Look down at your grips butt end. Divide it into compass points North/South and East/West. The Drag Loader loads , bends the shaft along N/S axis in Startdown (assuming ball positioned at Low Point no Grip Rotation etc) The Drive Loader along E/W in Startdown. The 4B Hitter Drags then Drives.....Drives after his Left Hand Rotates off the Inclined Plane (after the E/W rotates onto the plane). You can do this sequentially Drag the Drive, but not together at the same time in. They are incompatible. You cant get N/S and E/W on the Inclined Plane at the same time. You cant Load and Thrust against the North and East at the same time and be very consistent anyways. Like having one guy push a car on the back while a second guy is pushing the side with a force vector that is 90 degrees different. One guy pushing South while the other pushes West.

We're talking Startdown. When the Left Hand returns to Vertical you could say its possible to pull West while you are driving West and therefore have the vectors aligned but how doable is that for a full shot? Maybe when putting or another purely Radial Acceleration shot but why bother for such a low powered shot?

I dunno just something Ive been thinking about. Are we in the Lab? If not , we are now.
Cheers

Golf is a game of more than full swings. I think hitting exists big time in the short game, if desired, and that "feel" can carry over to the full swing. It's not all about science and long drive contests, we have to play the game...

Using 3D models with sensors hooked up to measure everything, maybe not??? I don't teach or play that way, and can't imagine I will ever be able to afford to. Homer Kelley's system is extremely relevant for me and my students...

Kevin

All knowing?
 

I agree Kevin.

Funny, my HP (Higher Power) is all knowing. He loves me and really likes it when I use my right arm and try to Hit. I wonder why someone would presume to tell lots of people what they are "really doing?" :( :)

He might be a Mets fan, who knows? If he were an Atlanta or Twins fan, I could respect that. Those are quality teams.

ICT

Strange, isn't it?

"It works for me, and makes golf more fun."

"Nope, you're wrong, and I have proven it doesn't work for you, and isn't fun, with science."

:laughing9 :laughing9 :laughing9

Kevin

Speaking of fun
 

I must've been hungry last summer, Kevin, but that basket of fried chicken and fries really hit the spot!

However, according to science I probably did not enjoy it, really!

The pink lemonade, however, was the bomb. :)

There is absolutely NO SCIENCE, according to anybody, that can tell you fried chicken isn't THE BOMB!

:) :salut:

Kevin

Toronto and the Cubs
 

I will always be thankful to Toronto for Doc Halladay and I am hoping Daryl, where is that boy, is a White Sox fan. I have :BangHead: given up on the Cubbies!


ICT

I've given up on both teams. But I haven't given up my knowlege of "Hitting" as a completely viable Stroke Pattern. In fact, it's probabley better suited to playing Golf than Swinging.

Wow!
 

I thought you were a Swinger, D? You seem to have excellent clarity on both!


ICT :)

I am a swinger.

Homer Kelley defined hitters and swingers by whether they used drive loading or drag loading, not single wrist action. That's a component compatible with hitting, but doesn't define a hitter.





3JACK

total motion
 

First of all I have no intention of telling you what you do or don't do- Just something interesting to turn over in the incubator.

I am speaking only to total motion- I agree that you can absolulty hit anything with basic and even aquired motion. '

However my main point goes back to O.B. Left comments about loading North South and standard wrist action- If you turn your hands to the plane could you still Drive Load on plane? Or over the plane?

Is a 4 barrel pattern always a hit? Once you build up all that CF could you over power it?

Being a former orienteerer I like the compass analogy, mr Left!

If you start a compass thread I migh produce an argument that you can push north and pull west at the same time. And perhaps both as a swinger and as a hitter. :salut: :cool:

The hitter exists. And it is very different from swinging. Certainly different enough to mess up your game if you start to mix the two without knowing what you're doing. But I don't agree that the hitter doesn't use CF and doesn't drag. Unless the hitter is a hacker she will drag and she will use CF to get the job done...

I think you could as well but would you want to? Assuming those forces are pointed in different directions.

Learning to load properly and delay release can provide all the power you need, I believe.

In both Hitting and Swinging the Left Hand lays flat on the Inclined Plane at Top. You can Drive Load from there for sure. Drive LOAD, Load the Right Elbow and the non rotated lag pressure point, the index finger. Load it and then sneak it down to its Delayed Release point and them blammo. Right Arm Throw a side armed throwing motion at the Aiming Point. Like skipping stones it'll feel more cross line than Tracing. The Thrusting on the aft you mention does push the Left Hand off the Inclined Plane #3 firing and #2 as well at the same time.

I would probably argue that all golfers push north and pull west. You need at least two forces in different direction to power a circular or quasi circular motion...

Swingers and hitters push north from their right shoulder. But hitters add some *independant* right hand thrust since there's an active straightening of the right arm going on. And both pull west as long as the shoulders are turning.

I really like this topic. Perhaps it needs it's own thread and some more definition so were talking apples to apples. Divergent forces and how best to focus them is critical to Alinged Release or the Throws.

I'm with you on that, O.B.
As my revolutionary/evolutionary relationship with TGM and LBG matures (and Kev, too), I find myself working more and more from both sides rather than one side or the other. There are times I Swing a driver and there are times I have the feeling I need to Hit the driver. It goes for other clubs and shots as well.
Due to the coaching gig and the recent tuba work I have little time to be on the course, but if I have to demonstrate something with the kids or get to play three holes with them, I am finding I have so many more possibilities now that I have a little understanding of the components, etc. When they see it and when they then do it, they become believers.
I don't know how I could exist in golf without this stuff. It certainly would not be nearly as interesting, say nothing of successful.
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