Standard Hip Action vs. Delayed Hip Action
 

According to 10-15-B, "Delayed Hip Action is the only Variation that assures Clearing of the Right Hip in both directions".

Why should clearing of the right hip be more difficult with Standard Hip Action where the hips are even leading the shoulders on the backstroke? And shouldn't the right hip on the downstroke clear just as well with Standard Hip Action as with Delayed Hip Action since the hips lead the shoulders with both procedures?

Is Delayed Hip Action only relevant on full shots or also on chips and pitches?

Standard Hip Action Most Natural a la Tom Tomasello Video
 

Actually Standard Hip Action is most natural (as in throwing a ball).

Most of you already have experienced the correct mechanics in generating an efficient backswing when throwing a baseball (or any ball) underhanded, look no further than Tom Tomasello's demonstration in his Chapter 1 video the "Pivot". Tom's demonstration in throwing a ball is HUGE. Why? The demonstration includes both Standard High Action and The Magic of the Right Forearm (cocking/bending the right forearm from the begining of the backswing (random sweep loading when executed with standard hip action). These two Golfing Machine concepts are natural motions!!! REALLY, watch the video. To reinforce this natural motion, use Tommy's pivot "Stick Drill" which includes the Three Point Set set-up and the 10 Step Sequence drill that follows the golf swing sequence in Chapter 8 of The Golfing Machine text. I normally practice both of these drills prior to hitting balls (a set of 5 to 10 reps each) and then a set of 3 each when alternating between clubs during a practice session (for example, do a set of 3 stick drills, hit 10 balls with a 9 iron, do 3 sets of the ten sequence drill, then hit 10 balls with a 7 iron and so on....)

You use the standard hip action were pivot action is used...from Full swings to pitches to long chips.

In addition to the pivot motion video, Tom describes this very backswing motion (standard hip action and the magic of the right forearm) in his 1991 Golf Illustrated Interview. A copy of that interview is on this website.

Thanks Lynn for making the video and interview available to the entire community of Lynn Blake Golf members.

You can find an example of Tommy executing this swing motion and drills on YouTube or golfswing.com.

http://www.golfswing.com.au/121

Happy Thanksgiving Everyone!!!

DG

What edition are u reading? In the 4th it does not state that...

Delayed hip action is Especially relevant on short shots because it can be used to prevent overswinging delay hip action it says to pre clear the hip therefore assuring the backstroke clearing and because u pre cleared it forthr backstroke it is cleared and ready for the downstroke both procedures can be relevant to short or long shots I think the point is that delayed can be preset therefore the only procedure thatcan assuredly clear the right hip in both directions this is my opinion If it does state that

Does this satisfy your question mysterious one?

Clearing the Pre-Cleared Hip Fog
 

In this reference to Delayed Hip Action (and, specifically, the pre-cleared right hip), Homer Kelley was referring primarily to Hitters using the Angle of Approach Procedure (2-J-3). This procedure automatically produces a steeper-than-normal Inclined Plane. Paradoxically, it also produces a more "inside" Clubhead Path.

He told our GSEM Class (January 1982) that unless he pre-cleared his right hip, his Hands would not "trust him" to turn away in Start Up. Instead, they would immediately go back outside the true (more 'inside') Angle of Approach required by this Hitting procedure. So, the only way to satisfy his Hands was to pre-clear the right hip. Then, in his own inimitable way, he told us that if our Hands didn't have that issue, then we might find the pre-clear useful, but not mandatory.

Swingers with their standard Planes and "Swing Back" Motion (as opposed to Hitters using the derived Angle of Approach Plane and their standard "Carry Back" Motion) have more leeway. Here again, the pre-cleared hip might prove useful, but not mandatory.

:golfcart2:

Agreed...but this is precleared hip is G O L D...GOLD.....hips and knees and on plane right forearm aligned to the angle of approach....beautiful stuff!

Thanks for your thoughtful replies. They are very helpful.

I understand that Delayed Hip Action with preturned Hips will assure Clearing of the Right Hip. But preturning the Hips is not mandatory for Delayed Hip Action, is it? Homer says "Turn the Hips a predetermined amount - or none at all - and then semi-lock them at that point before starting back with either the Shoulders or the Club." (Bold by me.)

I took the quote in my first post above to mean that Delayed Hip Action even without preturned Hips would assure Clearing of the Right Hip, whereas Standard Hip Action would not. Maybe that was not intended.

Whip - My quotes are from the 7th edition.

Right Hip Rx
 

No, Par71, that most certainly was not the intent. In fact, a "sticky" right hip has produced probably more horrendous golf shots under tournament pressure than any other error. Ask Greg Norman, whose closet would have at least one or two green jackets if that were not the case coming down the stretch.

The "or none at all" you bolded refers to those Strokes where no Hip Turn -- pre-cleared or otherwise -- is necessary, e.g., a ten-foot putt.

:golfcart2:

Master Machinist Eddie Cox....Preturn the right hip until the "line" from the left knee joint to right hip socket is parallel to the angle of approach approximated by the on plane right forearm that is the right forearm flying wedge....hand path also complying to this line...at top the left arm also has a parallel relationship to the angle of approach...right shoulder working OUT to the plane line on the line as well...sweet spot driven out...low deep hands hitting with a standing discus LAUNCHING pivot...game changing pattern....

Ok so this was a statement only made in the 7th edition to be clear not stated in earlier editions....

Job Description
 

No, Whip, that wording goes all the way back to the first edition (1969). What is different in the 7th is that the final two sentences of the 6th were cut -- one going all the way back to the first edition -- and replaced with the following truncation:

"Delayed Hip Action is the only Variation that assures 'Clearing of the Right Hip' in both directions (2-N-0). So Hip Action is delayed until Start Down."

Note that Homer Kelley has underlined the word 'Action'. In TGM, Motion and Action are different animals. Just because something moves doesn't mean it is causing anything to happen. Action, on the other hand, means that work is actually being done. And what Homer is telling us here is that, in the Delayed Hip Turn, the Action (work) of the Hip Turn doesn't begin until Start Down (when it Pulls the Shoulders down). In Standard Action, the Hip Turn's work begins in Start Up (when it Pulls the Shoulders back).

This is why the Hip Turn (Component #14) and Hip Action (Component #15) are differentiated. It is not enough to simply classify the movement. You must also classify the work.

:golfcart2:

Some more questions regarding this preturning business:

1. Which stage does the preturning of the Hips belong to: Do you preturn at Address, Adjusted Address or Start Up? Is there a pause between preturning the Hips and "starting back with either the Shoulders or the Club", or does the preturning of the Hips blend fluidly into Start Up (sort of like a Start Up trigger)?

2. What exactly does "semi-lock" mean? Do you preturn the Hips as far as they should turn on the backstroke (so that the Hips are already kinda fully turned by that preturning) or do the Hips turn beyond their preturned condition during the backstroke?

3. Does preturning the Hips also affect the knee conditions (i.e. tugging the left knee in towards the plane line and retracting the right knee)?

A bump for Par71. Great questions. YODA cleared up so much fog in the previous post, I would LOVE to see more!!!

Kevin

Right yoda but the statement made in the original post " it Assures clearing of the hip..." that is not stated in the fourth. I'm only referring to that sentence

here is the entirety of 10-15-B in the fourth....no mention of assuring whatsoever....Unlike in the 7th

10-15-B The shoulders lead and power the backstroke hip turn-- or at least lead. The hips then lead and power the downstroke shoulder turn. Use this hip turn to prevent overswinging, turn the hips a predetermined amount--or none at all-- and then "semi-lock" them at that point before starting back with either the shoulders or the club. This will stop the shoulder turn at any preselected place, tighten the left side tension and this will set the stage perfectly for the hips to initiate the downstroke shoulder acceleration in section #7. See 2-N and 7-17

1.homer does not say whether or not the pre turn hip execution should be in preliminary address impact fix or adjusted, he simply says before starting back, simply at some point before startup...

2.semi lock means just that, they are locked at a predetermined point before starting back but are not permanently locked thereby making them immobile and we certainly wouldn't want that for the downstroke... So semi lock them... The point of the preturned hip is to stop the shoulder motion at a preselected point, PREselected, of course you can do whatever you want! That is the beauty of it, you can create your own variation! However I think his intent was as stated to preturn a selected amount prior to startup and not move past that In The backstroke.

3.of course the hip turn will affect knee action and once again this comes down to your choice, can I preturn my hip and have a stratright leg? Yes! Can I do the same and have right anchor? Yes!

Good stuff Whip. :salut: :salut: :salut:

Some of this depends on the amount of hip turn you want...standard knee action allowing more hip turn...also easier to have more hip turn AND a centered pivot...see pics of AP da King in earlier posts....Beautiful lines by the King.

Here's my question...

10-14-0 General the hip turn stroke component includes weight shift and concerns only motion, unrelated to action which is a separate component, requires separate consideration

10-15-0 General hip action classifications are based on the directions in which hip action--if any--actuates the shoulder turn

So component 10-15-b is classified as hip ACTION, why then would he use this verbiage in 10-15-b "use this hip TURN to prevent overswinging" why would he use the word turn and not action when he specifically differentiated the two components, is it because the nature of pre turning is in fact a hip motion and not action whereas the downstroke of delayed hip action is in fact an action so it is actually half hip turn(backstroke) and half hip action(downstroke) relating to yodas point about the work of the action not happening til start down ??? Or is this simply how the verbiage was written, unintentionally mixing the verbiage between the components. Par 71 I'm sure you know this one....

Echo Chamber
 

Unless I'm missing something here, that is exactly what I said in the first paragraph of my post #11 above.

:salut:

Wwell I said that the statement about assuring the hips are being cleared was not in the fourth edition, then you said " no whip it goes all the way back to the first" my point was that that statement is not in the fourth.... Just trying to clarify that in fact the originally posted statement was not stated in all editions, I thought you were refuting that by saying "no whip that wording goes all the way back to the first.." I thought you were referring to that statement, that wording about the assuring the clearing of the right hip because that was the only wording I was referring to. I am sick hence easily confused and also why I have been posting so much!

Mixed Signals
 

Actually, Whip, your post didn't say anything about the hip turn. It merely referenced a "statement", presumably from a prior Par71 post, but gave no clue as to what that statement was.

I took your reference to mean the text he quoted in his post #7 (the most recent) whereas I now see that you were talking about post #1. At least the mistake gave me the opportunity to add other insights!

Now seems like a good time to remind everybody that the Quote function is a valuable tool. It keeps everybody on the same page and prevents this kind of confusion.

P.S. Get well soon, Whip . . . but keep up those posting stats!

Any insight On this?

With Delayed Hip Action, "Hip Action is delayed until Start Down". So the Action of the Hips cannot be responsible for preventing overswinging on the backstroke. I think Homer is referring to the first sentence of 10-15-B where he explains that the Shoulders lead and power (or at least lead) the Backstroke Hip Turn. In other words, a Backstroke Hip Turn that is lead by the Shoulders (rather than the other way round) prevents overswinging.

He wrote "Hip Turn" in that sentence you quoted in every edition from the first to the seventh. So I assume it's intentional.

You and me both Whip. I was always foggy on "Delayed Hip Action." YODA's post helped tremendously. I love learning this stuff! :salut:

Kevin

Beautiful explanation from Mr. Cox and 6PieceBucket!

Kevin

Only 6 cause I be on another diet... :crybaby:

Originally Posted by Par71
I understand that Delayed Hip Action with preturned Hips will assure Clearing of the Right Hip. But preturning the Hips is not mandatory for Delayed Hip Action, is it? Homer says "Turn the Hips a predetermined amount - or none at all - and then semi-lock them at that point before starting back with either the Shoulders or the Club." (Bold by me.)

I took the quote in my first post above to mean that Delayed Hip Action even without preturned Hips would assure Clearing of the Right Hip, whereas Standard Hip Action would not. Maybe that was not intended.




I do not think putting would be applicable to a delayed hip action because the hips power the downstroke shoulder turn with this variation, I think you would use zero hip action with zero hip turn for putting...

No Goose . . . No Egg
 

Wow. See how confusing this is?

I used a ten-foot putt to make the most obvious example I could think of.

You can't have a Hip Action if there is no Hip Turn.

That was exactly my point!

:eyes:

When you related putting to delayed hip action, that is what was confusing. Otherwise I would not have posted.

More On Hip Turn Versus Hip Action
 

If you'll read my post carefully, you'll see that I wrote "Hip Turn" not Hip Action (Delayed or otherwise).

:)

And, a Hip Turn that moves "none at all" -- the point that was under discussion and which I took to the extreme in my putting example (no Hip Turn in either direction) -- is classified as a Zero Hip Turn (10-14-E). This Component Variation automatically produces a Zero Hip Action (10-15-D) -- not Standard, Delayed, or Short. It also tends to automatically produce Zero Knee Action (10-16-E) and Zero Foot Action (10-17-E). All this constrains the Shoulder Turn but does not initiate it (in either direction). Hence, no work, and by definition, no Action.

That said, let's take the subject a bit further. It is possible for the Hips to Turn in the Stroke, yet do no work. This situation would also be classified as Zero Hip Action, even though there was a Hip Turn.

In this instance, the Hips are providing motion only, and that motion may resemble the Standard Action (free Turn with Hips leading in both directions). However, they are not pulling the shoulders in either direction, a fact usually evidenced by a "perceptible slackness in the Hip and Shoulder relationship".

:salut:

Right Lynn, zero hip turn automatically produces zero hip action, "the or none at all" is straight out of 10-15-b delayed hip action, which would be incompatible if you are using no hip turn e.g. A ten foot putt

So the "or none at all" that is in the description of 10-15-b DELAYED HIP ACTION could not have been referring to those strokes where no hip turn is necessary because zero hip turn and delayed hip action are incompatible components.

Identity Crisis
 

I see what you're saying, Whip, and I agree with your premise as stated. What we're having a hard time with here is that I wasn't talking about the Delayed Downstroke Hip Action. Instead, I was referring to the Zeroed Backstroke Hip Turn! Here's my quote -- I've bolded the word 'Turn' -- from my post to Par71:

That is the same differentiation Homer Kelley made when he said "Use this Hip Turn to prevent Overswinging." He was talking about a specific methodology to effect a Backstroke Hip Turn (from Zero to Free) in preparation for its Delayed Action in Start Down.

My simple example was deliberately not about Hip Action. It was about the Zero Turn. I used a ten-foot putt as my example because it so readily demonstrates the "none at all" Hip Turn PRINCIPLE.

Bottom line for readers as we 'move on' from here:

Each of the 24 Components in TGM has its separate identity. The Components coordinate in accordance with a given Stroke Pattern and its listed Variations, but nevertheless they remain independent. It is all too easy to mix things up -- to attach one thing to another as if they were inseparable -- and so inhibit a true and precise understanding.

:salut:

I understand your point lynn and how the none at all refers to a zeroed hip turn (which makes a perfect example), for the backstroke regardless of the delayed downstroke hip action, You were not talking about delayed hip action, but par 71 was, and it is he who posed the question in which u responded. I'm not making a mountain out of a mole hill, but I don't think par71s question was responded regarding the "or none at all" certainly if you were not talking about the delayed hip action (as he was) and instead talking about zero hip turn in the backstroke

Q:Is pre turning of the hips mandatory for delayed hip action? A:No

Q:does delayed hip action even without pre turning the hips assure clearing of the right hip( in reference to the final sentence of 10-15-b as only stated in the 7th edition)?A: delayed hip action is the only variation that IS CAPABLE of assuring clearing of the right hip in both directions. Homer talks about how he cannot state every obvious implication. The only way to assure clearance is to pre turn the hip, if i am wrong please tell me if it is possible and explain how it would be possible to assure clearance of the right hip even without pre turning using delayed hip action.

Q:does standard hip action assure clearing of the right hip? A:No

Why doesn't standard hip action assure clearing of the right hip??? I don't think I've ever read that in TGM...

The only way to assure the right hip is cleared in both directions is to pre-clear it as described In 10-15-b delayed hip action.You cannot be sure you will execute an action unless you pre-execute that action before starting your motion, thereby assuring you have done it before your very own eyes before the process has even started, it's sort of like cheating, in a good way.

Another question, can you pre-clear the right hip and still use standard hip action?

you have obviously mastered the book :salut:

Far from it...

Sixth edition reads....
7-15 HIP ACTION The hip action category is included to separate the "motion" of the hips from any work they may accomplish.

The work the hip action does, is to lead and pull the shoulders back and down in varying combinations. This has very valuable applications.. Forgetting to shift the weight or clear the right hip is difficult if the hips are initiating the shoulder turn--in either direction......


Seventh edition reads slightly different...

7-15 HIP ACTION The hip action category is included to separate the "motion" of the hips from any work they may accomplish.

The work the hip action does, is to lead and pull the shoulders back and down in varying combinations. This has very valuable applications.. Forgetting to shift the weight or clear the right hip is difficult if the hips are initiating the DOWNSTROKE shoulder turn--in either direction......

Then both editions go on to say..

With swingers using the arc of approach this actuation may be executed as a throwing of the right shoulder by the hips, as in 10-19-C

Hip action must not be haphazard. It is a pivot component that must be carefully timed and sequenced to sustain the continuity and spacing of the pivot train(of components). Omitting the hip action unintentionally will disrupt the feel as well as the continuity of the entire pivot(see 6-b-3-0 regarding pivot rhythm)

Swan Song
 

Whip,

With love in my heart, I write this Open Letter to you.

Scrolling through all the posts in this thread, there is no doubt that you have a wonderful understanding . . . of all you understand. You also skillfully articulate that understanding and defend it with passion. Bravo!

But . . . you also have a big missing piece. (Please don't take this last statement and the 'point-counterpoint' in this thread personally; it is how we learn.) And that missing piece was the subject of my first post here (#5); specifically, the Hitter's Angle of Approach Procedure (2-J-3 / B). It is this procedure that necessitated -- indeed required in Homer Kelley's own case -- the Pre-Turned Right Hip.

The Angle of Approach procedure and its derived Angle of Approach Plane Angle dictated that a more "inside" Path be made for the Hands in the Backstroke. That Path had nothing to do with Standard Hip Turn (Hips leading Shoulders) or Delayed Hip Turn (Shoulders leading Hips) or whatever. It had solely to do with Homer Kelley realizing that he had to pre-clear his own Right Hip so that his Hands could take the very Steep (but Inside) Backstroke Path. In so doing , the Clubhead could then COVER (not 'Point at' or 'Trace') the Angle of Approach Plane Line.

And COVERING the Angle of Approach (with the Clubhead) is what the Angle of Approach procedure is all about. If the Clubhead merely 'points' at the Angle of Approach (to the originating, geometric 10-5-A Plane Line), then you would be Tracing it, as if it were a 'normal' Closed Plane Line (10-5-E) with its own unique Angle of Approach (and Attack). And that ain't the case: The Angle of Approach Plane retains the identical Impact and Low Points of the original Geometric Plane Line. As Homer so eloquently (and to most readers, mysteriously) stated in the 6th edition, "There is no Angle of Approach to an Angle of Approach procedure . . . " .

That last quote is not in your book (I understand you have the 4th edition). Nor is it in the 5th. In fact, Section 2-J-3, the player's Visual Equivalents of the true On Plane Angle of Attack and Arc of Attack, did not even exist in the first three editions of The Golfing Machine. These were the things, Homer would say, that "seeped through slowly". As the Good Lord gave him more time, he wrote them down.

Section 2-J-3 was introduced in the 4th edition and revised extensively over the next four years in the 5th and 6th editions. Still, he wasn't satisfied, and he continued to tweak the verbiage. A final version (transcribed from revisions he left) appeared in the 7th edition, 23 years after his death. None of the information in the earlier editions was wrong, it was just that Homer tried desperately in so many different ways to get the same points across to us . . . points that to him seemed so self-evident and simple, but which he learned we simply could not understand.

Personally, I think mastery of the two Visual Equivalents and their two procedures (Swinger's Arc of Approach and Hitter's Angle of Approach) requires an understanding of Section 2-J-3 in each of the editions 4, 5, 6, and 7. If you don't have those editions, well, you don't have them. One more reason to search my archives.

Putting a red ribbon around our personal give-and-take over the last couple of days, the Pre-Turned Right Hip is not so much a Delayed Hip Action procedure as it is an enabling Angle of Approach procedure.

For 'the rest of us' -- if you've read this far -- I know this post sounds like a bunch of gobbledygook. To which I can only say, in its defense, that it is correct and that it will be worthwhile to those whose journey takes them there. Knowing that, I can sleep. Otherwise . . .

I've wasted an hour of my life.

:salut:

the whole picture
 

This was a very important subject! This stuff is hard and by complicating an already complex subject (although seemingly counterproductive) you actually simplify your understanding by becoming aware of all relevant factors, implications, details, intentions, exceptions, and descriptions. Then you get the "whole picture"!!!!!

From 2-STHE WHOLE PICTURE "The whole picture is your total visualization of all the individual visualizations of specific areas. Both the total and individual pictures must, in their beginnings, be vague and disjointed. But the paint-pots of study and experience will continually and evenly brighten, clarify and integrate your entire album"

P.S. i have 4th,5th,6th, and 7th editions, I will refer to those. Also, I will surely keep up my "posting stats" with the hope that I may convey some valuable understanding--- that is to say at least of what I do understand...