zero shift
 

Tom Stickney in Golf Tips magazine talked about an accurate swing using a "zero shift". The disadvantage, according to Tom, is somewhat less distance.

My question: Accuracy is important, obviously, but how much distance to you tend to sacrifice employing a "zero shift"????

Thanks in advance for responses.

Re: zero shift
 

It seemed to me that his definition of "zero shift" and Mr. K's are a little different. Reference 10-7.

I am not familiar with his teaching, but it is my understanding that plane shifts equate to a distance loss, so zero shift is infact more powerful.

The link to Stickney's article...
http://www.golfillustrated.com/reports/5swingflaws.pdf

Thanks for posting the reference. That article was more complete than the " Golf Tips' piece and explains everything.

Yes. Golf illustrated is much better
 

I will have to look up "the triple shift" in the book to refresh my memory because the article was not quite clear to me.

It is great to see TGM is making it into mainstream media. :D

It's about time Golf gets principled instruction.

SOS

I question the accuracy of Mr. Stickney's analysis and/or interpretation of plane angle variations...I believe calling Ernie's swing a double shift is incorrect....

DG

DG~

Using the RedGoat sequence, and including PP3, I see a shift going back but he seems very close to the TSP in the move down. However, that sequence is 03 and recently the clubhead was outside the hands at the first check point. When his clip from the Gallery could be loaded, I was using the mouse pointer on his head and hips to check movement- If that could just be "bottled!"

BTW, the Els clip has not stimulated much discussion or have I missed it?

DRW

Ok, here's the Els clip from the other thread:

http://www.golfswing.com/proswings/els.htm

I am reasonably convinced Els is using a Single Shift.

But I know Delaware does not agree- he thinks it's Zero Shift.

Let the debate begin... :o

EDIT: oh yes, and I'm certain it's not a Double Shift! Not on this clip anyway.

Nada Shift....plain and simple...


DG

We need somone green (hint hint) to give an authoritative answer to this simple question. What plane shift variation is Els using in this clip?

Els components....

6) Plane Angle--- Basic 10-6-B Turned Shoulder Plane
7) Plane Angle Variation 10-7-A Zero
8 ) Pivot 10-12-A Standard
13) Shoulder Turn 10-13-A Standard
14) Hip Turn 10-14-A Standard
15) Hip Action 10-15-B Delayed
21) Power Package
Assembly Point 10-21-C End
23) Power Package
Delivery Path 10-23-C Top Arc and Straight Line Path


Some of the components used by Els to justify a zero shift plane angle. I believe most golfers new to TGM think the end assembly point and Top Arc and Straight Line Path generate a shift....they don't!!!! Check/Study 12-2-0.

DG

Can you show some pictures of where he does this Delaware? Every swing sequence Ive ever seen of him, he takes it back elbow, shifts up to turned shoulder and comes down turned shoulder.

You're spot on rwh- it's what I've always said. So what if Hip Turn is Standard and Hip Action is Delayed-- these other component variations are of no significance regarding Plane Variation-- it's completely irrelevant.

EDIT: ok Delaware, I will let you off your Zero Shift theory of Els if you're referring to no shift in the downstroke- but that's a different matter. There ain't no component based solely on downstroke plane variation.

I think that sometimes people get confused when discussing plane because they may have a different perspective on 'what' defines the 'plane'.

It may be useful to look at what Homer said about plane in 2-F

Regardless of where the Clubshaft and Clubhead are joined together, it always feels as if they are joined together at the Sweet Spot - the longitudial center of gravity, the line of the pull of Centrifugal Force. So there is a "Clubshaft" Plane and a "Sweet Spot", or "Swing", Plane. But herein, and unless otherwise noted, "Plane Angle" and "Plane Line" always refer to the Center of Gravity application

In other words, the true plane is not defined by a 'body part', or even the 'clubshaft' per se - but by Force. The 'center of the circle' to the 'sweet spot' at impact.

Edz~

Should another sentence of the referenced paragraph be included?

*"Both Planes always pass through the Lag Pressure Point."

DRW

rwh~Is this illustrated by the 10-6-B photo? Also, as I read it, 10-13-D makes the same point from a different perspective- because Els' right shoulder does not reach the address shaft plane (or sweetspot plane) in the backstroke, he would have to steepen it for a zero shift.

OTOH, while Mr. K in 7-13 provides rationale for the hands and shoulder moving on the same downstroke plane, rationale is less specific for why PP3/hands should move back on the TSP instead of to it.

DRW

Yes indeed! How could I have left that one out - one of my 'favorites' and one of the reasons that I like to monitor the 'plane of the pressure points' 8)

rwh~

What I was wanting to establish was a book photo(s) illustrating zero shift. Since none are included in 10-7, I assume that is because they are already there (once is enought!). I like those in 10-13 but 10-6-B preceeds the 10-7 information. You may still have the Steven Covey question, "how old is the lady?"

DRW

Obviously there is not one with that label! If this means there is not one, it would seem to be a contradiction for someone who provided photos for almost everything of significance. Now, what did I do with that incubator? :)

My final answer is......zero shift.....nada shift.....in plain english no shift.


DG

The comment about hip action is totally wrong.....standard hip action will give one a double shift....look no further than the 4 barrel stroke from the 3rd edition. With a right forearm takeaway, delayed hip action and a Top Arc and Straight line delivery path one can achieve a zero shift plane angle. It's one of the reasons both stroke patterns in the book have zero shift basic plane angles. Hmmmm your comments in this section are telling me how much you guys lack in understanding component integration. The golfer who lacks the understanding of educated hands and who doesn't understand the delivery path concept and desires length off the tee can easily turn a right forearm takeaway and delayed hip action into a "Top Arc and Angle Path delivery path" and create a double shift (study 2-H). It appears to me you guys don't have a full understanding of delivery paths.....years of experimentation and study lead me to the above conclusion.

DG

At this point you don't need a photo depicting a zero shift you're witnessing a zero shift in Ernie's swing.

Geeezzzz, I believe the bigger mystery in the Els video is not about plane angle it's about Ernie's hands.....it appears he is starting from a impact fix condition.....I see no movement in his hands.....no movement from standard address to an impact condition during his backswing????

DG

Really Delaware, is that final answer out of stubbornness? Els HAS to shift, he starts below a turned shoulder plane at setup. Then in the downswing he comes down a turned shoulder plane. Please explain to me how he gets from his lower than turned shoulder plane setup to this turned shoulder downswing plane without shifting??

You guys are hung up on address and I'm watching the path of his hands and the club.....no shift, SORRY. Ernie DOES NOT START OUT ON THE ELBOW PLANE ANGLE!!! IT'S A FACT NOT AN OPINION. In the book, the model Diane is not set-up with an on-plane right forearm for the turned shoulder plane, she is set-up like Ernie.....it's interesting that she is set-up with an on-plane right forearm for the elbow plane!!!!!!

DG

Does Els have a Level Left Wrist at Address?

Tho there is an obvious difference in the elbow to waist position i would almost argue the right forearm is onplane in both the elbow AND the turned shoulder procedures. The elbow to wrist positions against the plane are so close to identical.

Travelin' Light
 

The Shifts catalogued as Component #7 are Variations of the Basic Plane Angles catalogued as Component #6. The Zero Shift classification (10-7-A) means there is no variation from the Plane Angle selected as Component #6. Hence, no photos other than those depicting the Basic Plane Angles (10-6-A/E) are required.

Two related points readers may find helpful:

First, the photos accompanying the On Plane Shoulder Turn (10-13-D #1/#2/#3) are essential to understanding how the Zero Shift is accomplished.

Second, the photos depicting the Angled Line Delivery Paths (10-23-B/D) are equally valid for the Double Shift (10-7-C) in both directions. The photos depicting the Straight Line Delivery Paths (10-23-A/C) illustrate the Zero Shift Turned Shoulder Plane.

Thanks Yoda,

And Ernie is using a 10-23-C delivery path.....this is exactly the delivery path that Tomasello taught in the Australia video....Ernie is just more flexible than Tommy.

Guys....I'm not looking for an arguement just the truth through an analysis with Homer's TGM....in most cases it takes multiple components to make a sound evaluation.


DG

Re: Travelin' Light
 

Yoda~

Thanks for the reminder that the player has a zero shift option with any of the Basic Plane Angles. Considering the Elbow Plane is most commonly used, when selected, is it correct to conclude that the Shoulder will provide the greatest support and guidance to the Stroke (7-13) if the player elects to single shift to the TSP?

If the student knew to "pencil-in" your 10-13-D comment, I suspect connecting 10-6 and 10-13 would be much less difficult. Concerning "essentials" I would relate the photos to the point Mr. K makes about adjusting the Clubshaft Plane if the Right Shoulder cannot reach it. There seems to be ample attention to the TSP. "Hole'ies & Pole'ies" from the Gallery finally loaded yesterday and your setup teaching IMO is reinforcing.

DRW

When using the elbow plane, my hands took the circle path instead of the straight path in coming down. And after impact, the club will go to the left instead of to the right (i.e. impact at aft and to the low point therefore to the right from impact to separation). Is this normal or should it still be going to the right?

Right Shoulder Support And Guidance
 

Yes, Doc, per 7-13.

Impact Geometry
 

Per 1-L #13: "The Clubhead travels Down-and-Out until it reaches its "Low Point."

Made this sequence to help me decode this thread. Don't know if it helps anyone yet, not even sure it helps myself. :D Anyway here it is.

I did not have the tools to make the line appear in the exact same place in all images. My idea was to make what I beleive is the "turned shoulder plane line".



NOW I will go on with the reading. :shock:

Fantastic work Metallion!

And for those who still believe that this is a Zero Shift variation... :roll:

I simply do not know. Judging by hunters stickmen I's say it is closer to zero shift than to single-shift as he is so quick to reach sweetspot plane (already pic #2). If he'd had a forward press to impact fix it might have been a clean zero shift. I might think... Hey. I am still learning :oops:

Yup,

It's still a zero shift variation.

DG

I was monitoring movement using my mouse pointer on parts of EE's body at the Gallery clip but can no longer view it. This clip seems to agree that the head position from address to impact is very stable, while the hands are "significantly" higher at impact.

While interested in the plane shift subject, my question would be why the hands at address are not closer to their impact position. Are the equipment manufacturers dictating this position? Also, is there any significance to his shoulder turn being perpendicular to the spine instead of flatter?

DRW

Fredrik, my "bash" buddy.

Nicely done!

If you have the energy or the time, please draw a few more lines. When drawing your lines, please reference the book pics as close as possible. Note that we are referencing clubShaft control. Draw a line up the shaft at address. Draw a second line like 10-6-b and please note where it bisects the arm pit. Third line shoulder tip area. Upon completion, have a plane party.

Got further questions, please contact Henning or I because if you recall, we wore this out. :lol: :wink:

Take care my friend.

Randy (Proud to be Arne's COACH)