Agree! Just another one of those things where reality does not match theory.
Like you said earlier, you can and should have Right Shoulder On Plane at Start Down, but it's not really practical at Impact. Interestingly, at Follow Through, you'll find quite a lot of players with their Right Shoulder back On Plane.
Looks like Immanuel Kant is now posting on the forum- (had to point that out for those philosophy students - couldn't resist.) Anyway, back to golf: I wouldn't agree that the right shoulder is back on Plane at the both arms straight - Follow Through position. For example, at impact the right shoulder is usually significantly off the plane- but the right forearm is on plane - as the right arm is bent. From impact to follow-through the hands stay on plane and the right arm becomes straight- but during that period from impact to follow-through the right shoulder doesn't drop down to the plane to create the straight right arm, rather the elbow comes up off the plane until the right arm is straight. So during release the right elbow is below plane, at impact it is on plane and during the follow-through it is above plane.
Looks like Immanuel Kant is now posting on the forum- (had to point that out for those philosophy students - couldn't resist.)
Mike O.
yes, but are we talking about the swing as a thing-in-itself, or merely it's appearance? Now stop critiquing my pure reason!!!
Originally Posted by Mike O
Anyway, back to golf: I wouldn't agree that the right shoulder is back on Plane at the both arms straight - Follow Through position. For example, at impact the right shoulder is usually significantly off the plane- but the right forearm is on plane - as the right arm is bent. From impact to follow-through the hands stay on plane and the right arm becomes straight- but during that period from impact to follow-through the right shoulder doesn't drop down to the plane to create the straight right arm, rather the elbow comes up off the plane until the right arm is straight. So during release the right elbow is below plane, at impact it is on plane and during the follow-through it is above plane.
Mike O.
What does this do to the magic of the right forearm - how can the right forearm trace if the right elbow is off plane? Or does the right elbow (and hence forearm) move through multiple planes, but remain on (a) plane to the plane's baseline (that really does sound like Kant!)
By the way Mike, I usally find your posts pretty phenomenal... noumenal even!
yes, but are we talking about the swing as a thing-in-itself, or merely it's appearance? Now stop critiquing my pure reason!!!
What does this do to the magic of the right forearm - how can the right forearm trace if the right elbow is off plane? Or does the right elbow (and hence forearm) move through multiple planes, but remain on (a) plane to the plane's baseline (that really does sound like Kant!)
By the way Mike, I usally find your posts pretty phenomenal... noumenal even!
Chris
Chris,
Nice catch on the philosophy and the golf! You're right on in regards to your comments and questions regarding the right forearm. You caught me! I'm not sure you really can trace the forearm- I mean you can, and/or you feel like you can but I'm not really sure in a "good" golf stroke that the right forearm does or needs to stay on plane for any extended period going back or coming down. The hands and clubshaft - yes! Just my take.
Chris,
Nice catch on the philosophy and the golf! You're right on in regards to your comments and questions regarding the right forearm. You caught me! I'm not sure you really can trace the forearm- I mean you can, and/or you feel like you can but I'm not really sure in a "good" golf stroke that the right forearm does or needs to stay on plane for any extended period going back or coming down. The hands and clubshaft - yes! Just my take.
Mike O.
And I also noticed that the more Trigger Delay one has, the less likely the Right Forearm stays on plane for an extended period from Release to Follow Through.
Chris,
I'm not sure you really can trace the forearm- I mean you can, and/or you feel like you can but I'm not really sure in a "good" golf stroke that the right forearm does or needs to stay on plane for any extended period going back or coming down. The hands and clubshaft - yes! Just my take.
Mike O.
You mean my right forearm isn’t really magic – it was all smoke and mirrors???
Your point about the right elbow (and its implications for the right forearm) seems massive to me. I had thought that the right forearm was to trace the baseline of the plane back and through, but if the right elbow is only on plane at impact, this is impossible! Instead the right forearm must trace an outside path (outside going back, out to in coming through the ball). At least with a zero shift...
Is the ‘magic’ of the right forearm then, only that it shows from impact fix the exact up and down motion the hands/clubhead need to take – that is, is it merely a good visual analogue of the plane and the delivery path of the hands?
You mean my right forearm isn’t really magic – it was all smoke and mirrors???
Your point about the right elbow (and its implications for the right forearm) seems massive to me. I had thought that the right forearm was to trace the baseline of the plane back and through, but if the right elbow is only on plane at impact, this is impossible! Instead the right forearm must trace an outside path (outside going back, out to in coming through the ball). At least with a zero shift...
Is the ‘magic’ of the right forearm then, only that it shows from impact fix the exact up and down motion the hands/clubhead need to take – that is, is it merely a good visual analogue of the plane and the delivery path of the hands?
Chris
Chris, A few thoughts:
First, It's never been my approach in posting in regards to the golfing machine- to point out my personal differences of opinion or my uncertainty regarding some of the concepts. My approach has been to share what I know - to help others better understand this great piece of work- The Golfing Machine. So, I "recklessly" posted my personal hunch on this right forearm on plane issue- when I would have preferred to leave it alone. If others would be interested in posting some photo's and bantering this topic- I'd be interested to see what they have to say- but I'd be more interested in listening to their comments than picking or proving one particular side.
Secondily, Let's say that the right forearm is only on plane at impact (not saying that it isn't or couldn't be on plane earlier or later) but as you noted - if it is on-plane only at impact then while tracing the plane line with the forearm may not be a requirement or a useful tool - nothing much else besides the tracing right forearm necessarily changes. For example if you read 7-3 (Magic Right Forearm) not one issue would change.
Finally, I think to determine in what manner the right forearm works through the release period- that it would be helpful to look at other sports such as tennis and javelin and including golf- to determine the proper right forearm movement through the release period and impact(tennis) and the letting go point with the javelin, in comparison to the plane of motion of each movement.
In Summary I don't think it's that big of a loss of innocence IF the right forearm didn't trace the plane line, BUT I understand your emotion- I've been there many times with this book.
Homer:
"After a 13-B or 12-C Backstroke Shoulder Turn, the Right Shoulder moves toward Impact precisely on the preselected Downstroke Clubshaft Plane, establishing and supporting the Power Package Delivery alignments."
Nevermind
I can't see how any type of shoulder turn would allow the right shoulder to move toward impact precisely on any plane but the Turned Shoulder Plane
Tongzilla
Yes, you've got it!
Nevermind
How do you reconcile that with the Homer quote?
Again, considering the starting point is always the Turned Shoulder Plane, how can the rear shoulder be moving on a TGM defined plane at startdown unless it is the Turned Shoulder Plane?
Again, considering the starting point is always the Turned Shoulder Plane, how can the rear shoulder be moving on a TGM defined plane at startdown unless it is the Turned Shoulder Plane?
Like you said it starts at the TSP. There are many plane angles that can go through the same point. Some players move their right shoulder to a steeper plane immediately at startdown -- i.e. above the TSP.
Hybrid Mode
