I see people often who think of the 'plane' as meaning the clubSHAFT. It is very important to understand the above is what Homer is talking about when he mentions 'plane'.
Thank you for your distintion and clarification!!!
Clubshaft can travel on, or to- and from, either Plane because Clubshaft rotation must be around the Sweetspot - not vice versa.
So what is the means by which the shaft can travel on, or to and from?
Does it differ for swinging and hitting...If so...Why and How
I would love to hear what Dr. Collards has to say!!!!
BTW there is a Shaft Plane and a Sweetspot plane so the people who are referring to the Clubshaft are referring to the visible plane but Homer was referring to the invisible sweetspot plane
There are many planes.....There is not a "The PLANE" situation here...
AS
Last edited by annikan skywalker : 11-05-2005 at 03:48 PM.
BTW there is a Shaft Plane and a Sweetspot plane so the people who are referring to the Clubshaft are referring to the visible plane but Homer was referring to the invisible sweetspot plane
There are many planes.....There is not a "The PLANE" situation here...
AS
philly - I am talking about the 'invisible' plane - which boils down to the plane of 'motion', of forces in the swing. My personal take is that it is far better to simply monitor the path and plane of PP#1 during the entire motion, than to worry about the clubshaft, or to a certain extent, even the sweetspot.
The club only knows what the HANDS tell it and the ball only knows what the club tells it. By monitoring the path/plane of the hands, the pressure points in the hands, you don't need to worry about the shaft or sweetspot because they will 'follow' what the hands dictate.
Annikan - I disagree a bit that there is no 'the' plane because if you have maintained balance during the entire motion, chances are the hands, the pressure points, will have effectively stayed on a single plane of motion. They will 'orbit' the center of balance.
__________________
"Support the On Plane Swinging Force in Balance"
"we have no friends, we have no enemies, we have only teachers"
Simplicity buffs, see 5-0, 1-L, 2-0 A and B 10-2-B, 4-D, 6B-1D, 6-B-3-0-1, 6-C-1, 6-E-2
philly - I am talking about the 'invisible' plane - which boils down to the plane of 'motion', of forces in the swing. My personal take is that it is far better to simply monitor the path and plane of PP#1 during the entire motion, than to worry about the clubshaft, or to a certain extent, even the sweetspot.
I believe Homer generally refers to the sweetspot plane - as discussed in 2-F. And did you mean pp#3? (just curious).
Originally Posted by EdZ
The club only knows what the HANDS tell it and the ball only knows what the club tells it. By monitoring the path/plane of the hands, the pressure points in the hands, you don't need to worry about the shaft or sweetspot because they will 'follow' what the hands dictate.
But Ed...what if the hands are monitoring the sweetspot during start up? I know for me, an offplane motion has a significantly different feel then onplane. More effort, etc. So....
Does the tail wag the dog or is it the other way around?
I believe Homer generally refers to the sweetspot plane - as discussed in 2-F. And did you mean pp#3? (just curious).
But Ed...what if the hands are monitoring the sweetspot during start up? I know for me, an offplane motion has a significantly different feel then onplane. More effort, etc. So....
Does the tail wag the dog or is it the other way around?
PP#3 is useful to monitor during the motion in part because it is the 'last link' in the chain and because of its relative (on plane rotation) relationship to PP#1. That said, for 'on plane' motion and for clubHEAD control, I find looking at the plane which PP#1 travels more helpful when looking at someones overall ability to stay on plane.
If you look at the tour players you will generally find many variations in how the clubSHAFT moves, shifts, but in many cases the hands, pp#1 in particular, will be at or close to zero shift. Important to note that I am not talking specifically of Homer's view of zero shift, in which the shaft/SS is considered - I'm simply looking at the hands at the top, at impact and a spot extending down the left wedge to the ground. In effect this is is a line drawn along the undersides of the arms at address, down to the ground.
A great photo posted by Mathew:
Furyk is a great example. His hands travel on a quite verticle plane with relatively little 'shift'. Someone like Appleby is also very 'on plane' from this same viewpoint, but simply with a less verticle plane angle, and in his case, also with a shaft/SS that is very close to a zero shift as defined by Homer
No doubt that there is a different feel to being on plane vs. off plane, however IF the wedges are set properly and STAY set, there is no need to monitor anything other than the hands and their travel. If your hands are on plane (in my view) but the club is not, you can certainly bet that the wedges are not in place!
The Flying Wedges, the imperatives - a shortcut to great golf
__________________
"Support the On Plane Swinging Force in Balance"
"we have no friends, we have no enemies, we have only teachers"
Simplicity buffs, see 5-0, 1-L, 2-0 A and B 10-2-B, 4-D, 6B-1D, 6-B-3-0-1, 6-C-1, 6-E-2
Homer:
"After a 13-B or 12-C Backstroke Shoulder Turn, the Right Shoulder moves toward Impact precisely on the preselected Downstroke Clubshaft Plane, establishing and supporting the Power Package Delivery alignments."
Nevermind
If the downsing has plane shifts, which plane angle is the preselected Downstroke Clubshaft Plane?
Given that the shoulder is on the Turned Shoulder Plane at the end of the backstroke, no matter which shoulder turn is used, how can the rear shoulder move downplane at startdown, on anything but that plane?
Tongzilla
Your preselected plane will be your Basic Plane Angle (10-6). So if you are shifting from the Turned Shoulder Plane to the Elbow Plane on the downstroke your hands and clubshaft should move towards that plane angle. Your Right Shoulder would never move onto the Elbow Plane because it's too shallow.
The rear shoulder can move on, above or below the established Turned Shuolder Plane (angle from ball to right shoulder at the top only, not during downstroke) during startdown.
Nevermind
In that example, shifting in the Downstroke from the Turned Shoulder Plane to the Elbow Plane, which is the preselected Downstroke Clubshaft Plane (Basic Plane Angle)?
Tongzilla
Elbow Plane
Tong thanks for your patience.
So, taking what I’ve learnt and implanting our example into the Homer quote I get this.
After a 13-B or 12-C Backstroke Shoulder Turn, the Right Shoulder moves toward Impact precisely on the Elbow Plane, establishing and supporting the Power Package Delivery alignments.
Either it's impossible for the Elbow Plane to be the preselected Downstroke Clubshaft Plane with either of those Shoulder Turns, or I'm still lost in the fog. You’ve already said that the right shoulder would never move onto the Elbow Plane, so I know it could never move precisely on that plane.
I can't see how any type of shoulder turn would allow the right shoulder to move toward impact precisely on any plane but the Turned Shoulder Plane (at Startdown and assuming that the plane angle has its Base Line on the Square Plane Line), but if you tell me that I need to understand 13-B and 12-C (I don't) to understand this quote, then I'll give it a rest until I've had another good read of my book.
Thank you for your distintion and clarification!!!
Clubshaft can travel on, or to- and from, either Plane because Clubshaft rotation must be around the Sweetspot - not vice versa.
So what is the means by which the shaft can travel on, or to and from?
Does it differ for swinging and hitting...If so...Why and How
I would love to hear what Dr. Collards has to say!!!!
BTW there is a Shaft Plane and a Sweetspot plane so the people who are referring to the Clubshaft are referring to the visible plane but Homer was referring to the invisible sweetspot plane
There are many planes.....There is not a "The PLANE" situation here...
AS
I'll try to post a more detailed post on this in the next couple of weeks- if things work out, but for now.
The means is that - the shaft is in a subservient role- it has a direct relationship with the lcg but can only follow the lcg, the lcg is the controlling force.
Does it differ from hitting to swinging? No, the straight line shaft rotates around the lcg regardless of whether your hitting or swinging. However, in a more isolated observation of shaft flexing activity - there definitely is a difference in shaft reaction to hitting versus swinging. For example, at impact the swinger would have more clubhead droop and the hitter would have more clubhead bow (prestressed clubshaft), based on the different acceleration methods used.
Hybrid Mode
