I'm not sure about the BALL FLIGHT LAWS THEORY either.
If the SHAFT and SWEET SPOT are on PLANE and the(SLIGHTLY OPEN) CLUBFACE contacts the INSIDE QUADRANT of the ball at just the right place in relation to LOW POINT, with HORIZONTAL HINGING and proper RHYTHM... THE BALL SHOULD GO FAIRLY STRAIGHT. CHANGES OR ADJUSTMENTS IN THESE FACTORS CAUSE CURVES.
Once all this is in your COMPUTER... you should be able to produce your shots with a very simple cue.
Just to start out stating my corrent ideas about this:
The ball will essentiallytake off perpendicular to the leading edge of the club and to the loft of the club.
Anyone can prove this to himself while putting and chipping. In this case the initial ball direction will to some 99% be determined by how the face is oriented. Clubhead path is essentially not a factor.
Ok. We can all try that (putting and chipping) and agree. Some of us will be surprised and say: I thought the clubhead path mattered more!
Anyway. We can do the experiment and agree. Some surprised, some not.
But as we go to full swing the discussion starts. I have seen at least two top players saying in their instruction videos that to slice/hook the ball you need to:
1. Aim the face at the target
2. Swing out-to-in/in-to-out to slice/hook.
Since this is a contradiction to what we just agreed on (if we ever did ), we have a discussion.
Now do this in your mind: Fit a clubhead aimed left on a car and tee up a ball on the road. Drive the clubhead at 100 mph to impact.
If the instruction videos above were truthful the ball should take off in the direction the car is driving and then spin to the left.
Do we think so?
Some do. I do not.
I think the ball will take off essentially the direction the clubface is aimed and then turn more left.
The question is how the ball deformation (during impact) and re-formation (at separation - introducing vertical and horizontal spin) make the ball:
a) start out in a different direction than above
b) move the ball during flight
There are other factors involved:
Hinge action
How is the clubface changing orientation through impact, and how does that affect the ball?
"Carry-along-for-an-inch" effect
During impact until separation the ball will essentially be caught on the clubface and deformed. The ball will for a very small amount of time go from being stationary to follow the clubface trajectory. So during the deformation phase and until the ball is deformed enough to spring off the clubface its centre of gravity will travel along the same path as the path of the clubface. This will make the ball:
- Spring off the clubface - which is moving and turning
and
- Oriented in a certain way at separation
This implies that the ball will (for a shot where the ball is carried on the clubface for 1/2 inch or so) get its initial direction as a mix of the clubface direction and the clubhead direction. Most sources discussing on this level will say that the ball will go where the clubface is aimed more than it goes in the direction the clubhead is carrying it.
I'd say the reason for this is that the spring-off (reformation) power off the clubface is dominant to the clubhead direction. Heck, if it wasn't the ball would not leave the clubface.
And so on.
Now tear it apart.
I would LOVE to see some highspeed photography as this one, but from a top view and much longer with different hinge actions, different angles of approach etc etc.
__________________
When James Durham recorded 94 at the Old Course at St Andrews in 1767, he set a course record that lasted 86 years. Golf: A curious sport whose object is to put a very small ball in a very small hole with implements ill desiged for the purpose - Sir Winston Churchill
Seems to be a lot of confusion regarding how swing path and face orientation contributes to the ball flight. Not to mention all the other contributing factors.
Anyone able to give references to a solid online research article based on experiments (highspeed photography) that clearly shows how it actually works and kills the subject for ever?
The Golfing Machine as well the Maltby 800-page "bible" clearly says that the Ball Flight Laws are junk and I believe they are.
Annikan . . .
Originally Posted by annikan skywalker
What?
Annikan
Originally Posted by 12 piece bucket
I think it's the DEGREE of open or closed clubface in relation to the plane line that determines how much hook or fade.
Annikan . . .
Originally Posted by annikan skywalker
Bucket?....
Nice Post!!!
as my dad used to say to my brother and me: "All right you two, what's going on here!?"
I think it's the DEGREE of open or closed clubface in relation to the plane line that determines how much hook or fade.
Annikan . . .
Excellent post...
As for scientific evidence, there seems to very little that addresses this issue in english.
Most noted instructors that I have come across that use the Ball Flight Laws really use it at a very coarse level and on full swings, no putters.
I long ago gave up on these discussions since there are two camps for sure and none can account for all the variables, the loft, speed, directional vectors, etc.
i cant beleive there isnt any hard evidence out there i wonder if the golf labs has anything n it i think thats what its called that independent testing facility
Once I fully accepted that the ball will almost always take off at a right angle to the loft of the club, my shotmaking became much more proficient. If you don't understand what a "right angle to the loft of the club" means, this clubfitting aid will give you an idea of the path the ball will take at 90 degrees to the loft of the club: http://www.golfworks.com/product.asp_Q_pn_E_MLAT.
I can now "thread the needle" between two trees (I play a heavily wooded track), curve the ball either way at will, and have become much better at controlling the starting direction and amount of curvature on my curve balls.
I now focus on using my clubface for starting direction and using clubhead path (rotated plane lines) to control curvature. For years I got terrible results doing just the opposite (trying to control starting direction with path and curvature with face). So, now, if I want to hit a 10 yard draw with a driver, I'll aim the clubface and my body at the right edge of the fairway. Then, I'll adjust my body lines a couple of degrees further to the right, in effect, closing my plane line slightly. The ball will take off where the clubhead is aiming at impact, and, due to the slight oblique impact, the ball will curve gently to the left.
No more left-to-lefts and no more right-to-rights for me.
Once I fully accepted that the ball will almost always take off at a right angle to the loft of the club, my shotmaking became much more proficient. If you don't understand what a "right angle to the loft of the club" means, this clubfitting aid will give you an idea of the path the ball will take at 90 degrees to the loft of the club: http://www.golfworks.com/product.asp_Q_pn_E_MLAT.
I can now "thread the needle" between two trees (I play a heavily wooded track), curve the ball either way at will, and have become much better at controlling the starting direction and amount of curvature on my curve balls.
I now focus on using my clubface for starting direction and using clubhead path (rotated plane lines) to control curvature. For years I got terrible results doing just the opposite (trying to control starting direction with path and curvature with face). So, now, if I want to hit a 10 yard draw with a driver, I'll aim the clubface and my body at the right edge of the fairway. Then, I'll adjust my body lines a couple of degrees further to the right, in effect, closing my plane line slightly. The ball will take off where the clubhead is aiming at impact, and, due to the slight oblique impact, the ball will curve gently to the left.
No more left-to-lefts and no more right-to-rights for me.
Vjcapron....
Very nice post...good players curve the ball with rotated plane lines...hackers curve it with clubface manipulation...
The curvature of the ball is obviously a combination of a few more facors than just face and path....but for the average junkie..that's enough...what other factors might be involved....
1.) Ball Speed
2.) Launch Angle
3.) Vertical Spin Rate/Horizontal Spin Rate
4.) Drag
5.) Gravity
6.) Clubface Motion/Hinge Action
7.) Loft
8.) Lie/Plane Angle
9.) Moment of Inertia of the Head
10.) Torque
11.) Shaft Flex
12.) Overall Weight
13.) Bend Point
14.) Dimple Configuration
15.) Vertical, Horizontal, and Longitudinal Center of Gravity of the Clubhead...
16.) Angle/Arc of Approach
17.) Angle/Arc of Attack
18.) Ball location
This is probably just the tip of the iceberg....but at least it's a start......
Last edited by annikan skywalker : 11-19-2005 at 12:30 AM.
), we have a discussion.
Hybrid Mode
