What was the preselected Downstroke Clubshaft Plane in the Freddy sequence? How can the shoulder move down on the preselected Downstroke Clubshaft Plane unless that is the Turned Shoulder Plane? Say you were going to shift the sweetspot down from the Turned Shoulder Plane to the Elbow Plane (from the Top down), should your goal be to also shift the rear shoulder?
Freddy pre-selects nothing.
Thanks Yoda. How about the other questions? Maybe I need the definition of what a "preselected Downstroke Clubshaft Plane" is exactly before I'll get a grasp of that quote.
Here is another one for you. How can you have the rear shoulder and rear forearm be on the same plane angle without having a straight rear arm
Thanks Yoda. How about the other questions? Maybe I need the definition of what a "preselected Downstroke Clubshaft Plane" is exactly before I'll get a grasp of that quote.
Here is another one for you. How can you have the rear shoulder and rear forearm be on the same plane angle without having a straight rear arm
I am not green but here goes.
In math, there are two absolute angles, meaning that it either is or it is not. These two are the horizontal and vertical planes. They either are horizontal / vertical or they are not.
However, because golf is played at an angle in between these two planes, there are an infinite number of angles that one may choose to play golf on.
Mr Kelly identified 5 of these inclined angles and they are catalogued in 10-6 of the book. Yes, there are an infinite number of angles on an incline plane, but there are only 5 that can be readily identified in relation to some body part (elbow, hands and shoulders), thus the 5 codified plane angles.
Elbow Plane
Squared Shoulder Plane
Turned Shoulder Plane
Turning Shoulder Plane and
Hands only Plane.
"preselected Downstroke Clubshaft Plane" simply means the clubshaft on which the player wants to utilise on the downstroke.
Please read 10-7 for an exposition of plane shifts.
Anyone of the 5 can be used or anyone of the infinite angles can be used.
Personally, I use the Turned Shoulder Plane because as Mr. Kelly says, any plane shift is hazardous. Nonetheless, for physical and psychological reasons, plane shifts can and are utilised.
The "rear shoulder" and "rear forearm" can be in a straight line (with the clubshaft) if one bends the right ("rear) elbow in towards the right hip. It will appear in a straight line if viewed from a "down-the-line" perspective.
"preselected Downstroke Clubshaft Plane" simply means the clubshaft on which the player wants to utilise on the downstroke.
If you shift during the Downstroke, which plane is the preselected plane? Or, is there only ever a preselected Downstroke Clubshaft Plane in a zero shift Downstroke?
If the Turned Shoulder Plane is the angle from the the plane line up to the rear shoulder at the end of the Backstroke(no matter what type of Shoulder Turn took place), how can the rear shoulder move downplane at start down on anything but the Turned Shoulder Plane?
Quote:
The "rear shoulder" and "rear forearm" can be in a straight line (with the clubshaft) if one bends the right ("rear) elbow in towards the right hip. It will appear in a straight line if viewed from a "down-the-line" perspective.
I can't picture this comdpa Are there any photos or diagrams that could clear this up for me?
Another question. For how long should the rear shoulder move downplane? I see many down the line sequences showing the rear shoulder moving above plane before impact, but few with it remaining on plane to both arms straight. What is ideal?
Last edited by nevermind : 01-08-2006 at 09:34 AM.
If you shift during the Downstroke, which plane is the preselected plane? Or, is there only ever a preselected Downstroke Clubshaft Plane in a zero shift Downstroke?
Technically, using ANY plane, whether downstroke or backstroke, if one does not shift from one plane to another, then that means it is a "zero shift" stroke. A zero shift is not limited only to the downstroke.
If on the backstroke I elect to shift from an elbow plane to a turned shoulder plane then that is a shift.
Originally Posted by nevermind
If the Turned Shoulder Plane is the angle from the the plane line up to the rear shoulder at the end of the Backstroke(no matter what type of Shoulder Turn took place), how can the rear shoulder move downplane at start down on anything but the Turned Shoulder Plane?
Sure it can. I merely have to switch planes. In fact, you will see that such shifts are pretty common on Tour. Usually you will see a move from the turned shoulder plane to the elbow plane. But remember the words of Mr Kelly here. Any plane shift is hazardous.
Originally Posted by nevermind
I can't picture this comdpa Are there any photos or diagrams that could clear this up for me?
Another question. For how long should the rear shoulder move downplane? I see many down the line sequences showing the rear shoulder moving above plane before impact, but few with it remaining on plane to both arms straight. What is ideal?
As regards photos and diagrams, you may need to ask our resident imager Mr Annikan...
You may not like this answer, but the rear shoulder should move downplane as long as it needs to. As I observe in all my students, there is too much around as opposed to "down".
Technically, using ANY plane, whether downstroke or backstroke, if one does not shift from one plane to another, then that means it is a "zero shift" stroke. A zero shift is not limited only to the downstroke.
If on the backstroke I elect to shift from an elbow plane to a turned shoulder plane then that is a shift.
Come on man, I knew that... so back to the question. If you make a shift in the downstroke, which plane is the preselected Downstroke CLubshaft Plane, that the shoulder should move precisely on? The plane your shifting from or to? Or is there no preselected Downstroke Clubshaft Plane if there are shifts in the downstroke?
Quote:
Sure it can. I merely have to switch planes. In fact, you will see that such shifts are pretty common on Tour. Usually you will see a move from the turned shoulder plane to the elbow plane.
I'm going to assume your talking about the clubshaft here, coz I definitely can't picture the rear shoulder getting down to the elbow plane Should the rear shoulder make plane shifts during the Downstroke? If the rear shoulder is on the Turned Shoulder Plane at startdown, no matter what shoulder turn was used, how can it move downplane at startdown on anything but the Turned Shoulder Plane?
Quote:
You may not like this answer, but the rear shoulder should move downplane as long as it needs to. As I observe in all my students, there is too much around as opposed to "down".
So how do I know how far I need to keep the shoulder on plane for? If it's an individual thing, I guess trial and error is the way to go? How do I know if my bad shots are due to not keeping the shoulder on plane far enough or something else?
I worked with Justin in July and he has helped
me with my pattern, and I always refer to the
videos that we made during lessons. Thanks to everyone at LBG,Manzella,Ben,Gregg and anybody involved spreading the word of TGM. I would have never been able to make sense of TGM without these great sites.
Come on man, I knew that... so back to the question. If you make a shift in the downstroke, which plane is the preselected Downstroke CLubshaft Plane, that the shoulder should move precisely on? The plane your shifting from or to? Or is there no preselected Downstroke Clubshaft Plane if there are shifts in the downstroke?
I'm going to assume your talking about the clubshaft here, coz I definitely can't picture the rear shoulder getting down to the elbow plane Should the rear shoulder make plane shifts during the Downstroke? If the rear shoulder is on the Turned Shoulder Plane at startdown, no matter what shoulder turn was used, how can it move downplane at startdown on anything but the Turned Shoulder Plane?
So how do I know how far I need to keep the shoulder on plane for? If it's an individual thing, I guess trial and error is the way to go? How do I know if my bad shots are due to not keeping the shoulder on plane far enough or something else?
My apologies "nevermind"...
I read your question wrongly and thus came up with a wrong answer. We are on the wrong pages.
You were referencing "shoulders" only and I referenced at times "shoulders" and "clubshaft".
When I referred to "shifts" I was referring to "plane angle shifts". Per 10-6-B, "any Plane Angle Shift is very hazardous"
You are asking which "clubshaft plane" that the "shoulders" should move on.
Per 7-13 "When the Shoulder moves on the same Downstroke Plane as the Hands it provides its greatest support and its best guidance to the stroke."
This would be the "Turned Shoulder Plane" 10-6-B, "which has far better performance characteristics than any other".
And it may not be the answer you want.
Per 7-13, a tip-off to bad shots created by improper shoulder motion is the non-existence of a "followthrough" 8-11
Per 7-13, a tip-off to bad shots created by improper shoulder motion is the non-existence of a "followthrough" 8-11
thanks compda
I might try a pm to Yoda for the other questions. I never seem to get anywhere on this topic
If you ever see an image showing the rear shoulder, forearm and clubshaft all on the same plane, during a normal golf shot and without a straight rear arm, please let me know . Push Elbow doesn't count
Are there any photos or diagrams that could clear this up for me?
. For how long should the rear shoulder move downplane? I see many down the line sequences showing the rear shoulder moving above plane before impact, but few with it remaining on plane to both arms straight. What is ideal?
. Push Elbow doesn't count 
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